Feature Flipping - Official Announcments

Originally Posted by shorty28

I was also a victim of this travesty. Had sold a PDA connect unlimited and co-worker removed it and replace it and got credit for it.

Originally Posted by Lambert

One of my former co-workers set up around 10 blackberries ($44.99 each) for a company. One of the employees went to a store in another state and the rep offered them the $29.99 BB connect on all the lines. Needless to say he got a pretty hefty chargeback.

Originally Posted by mentalcase

I think this makes obtain feature goals a total B**CH. For instance, a customer comes in wanting to upgrade the blackberry they already have. If i cant flip the feature then that totaly stink because ive lost out on any features for that opp. Ive had this happen so many times and it just kills me. And they wonder why we cant make our feature goals.

Originally Posted by BroPhone

He missed out on it because he didn't have the initiative to actually check. I even asked him what the deal was, along the lines of, "Why aren't you doing that? You went to the exact same training I did. They sent us for a reason." The same also works with accessories.
-Sam

Originally Posted by mentalcase

Im not talking about stealing. The only time i would ever flip a feature is if it was past the 6month period so that the other rep does not see a chargeback.

Originally Posted by mentalcase

Im not talking about stealing. The only time i would ever flip a feature is if it was past the 6month period so that the other rep does not see a chargeback.

Originally Posted by Perceptions

That is stealing because Cingular is paying you for a service an other rep had already done, which is sell the feature. By flipping the feature you are taking credit for someone else's work.

Originally Posted by mentalcase

Im not talking about stealing. The only time i would ever flip a feature is if it was past the 6month period so that the other rep does not see a chargeback.

Originally Posted by Rcadden

As a customer, if you "updated" my MEdiaWorks package (grandfathered, $20/month for unlimited internet, 1500 sms, and 200 mms) to the "new" MEdiaMax ($20/month for unlimited internet and only 200 messages) I'd be pissed to hell and I'd make damn sure you were reprimanded. As has been stated, you shouldn't make ANY changes to an account unless the customer says, "Mentalcase, You're right. You've demonstrated that the current offering is better than what I have, and I'd like for you to go ahead and change it." Period.

Originally Posted by tkdlove

very true and i agree, but....

1. as a customer please understand that those who keep grandfathering plans are the ones who "financially" hold us back. my belief is if there is no update in features and rate plan (especially off old old old stuff) then no new phone and no extended insurance and no room to complain.

2. i just love it when customers come in here and say " if that was me then i would have you fired/disciplined etc..."
you can't... your ARPU and profitibility does not cover the cost of hiring, training, and retaining an employee. so there for you have no pull over the staff. STOP THINKING YOU CAN FIRE ANYONE BECAUSE YOU BOUGHT A CAR CHARGER!!

3. YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON IN THESE "EMPLOYEE" DISCUSSIONS! PLEASE REFRAIN FROM ACTING LIKE YOU HAVE A CLUE!

please understand "CUSTOMERS":
you opinion and point of view is duelly noted now please sign in, sit down and shut up...


for those of you out there that would swap codes and take $$ away from your fellow employee (whether same store or not) should be shot! you are hurting your co-workers and the customer. you should stop...

Originally Posted by tkdlove

very true and i agree, but....

1. as a customer please understand that those who keep grandfathering plans are the ones who "financially" hold us back. :

Originally Posted by p8ntbllrx

Wow tkdlove. You almost single handedly represent everything wrong with salespeople.


WHAT? For getting what they signed up for you dont think they have any room to complain?


you probably get that alot.

All I can say is wow. I'd be willing yo bet your legacy orange.

Originally Posted by BroPhone

Let me get this straight. Are you actually complaining that you are no longer allowed to steal features from other sales reps/cingular?!?! If new bundles come out (such as the new Blackberry Connect w/messaging for 54.99), then you are allowed to change it to that. Cingular is always revamping their data plans. You simply have to qualify your customers for the new feature. For example, somebody today had a media works 19.99 package on their account. I mentioned that I could save them $5 on their bill a month. I explained the newer bundles to them and switched it over. Other than that, if you didn't sell the importance of that feature to the customer, then you should not get credit for it. Also, if you think those are the only features for that opp, then it may be time to rethink your sales strategy. There are plenty of other things to sell them (early nights and weekends, roadside, etc). If you're having difficulty acheiving your goals, try one thing:

-for EVERY customer that comes in (I mean every customer), look at their bill/features. I don't care if they're just buying a car charger or paying a bill. There's at least a 40% chance that there's a feature they can be qualified for. We have this new schmuck sales rep in the store (actually, he's just as new as I am), and he never checks customers' bills. Yesterday a customer he was dealing with started talking to me after he had dealt with them (upgrades, etc). I ended up qualifying and selling them $55 worth of media bundles. He missed out on it because he didn't have the initiative to actually check. I even asked him what the deal was, along the lines of, "Why aren't you doing that? You went to the exact same training I did. They sent us for a reason." The same also works with accessories.


-Sam

Originally Posted by SoCal91302

Another honest way to make a buck and take care of your customers at the same time is to set aside an hour or so per month and look over old upgrades/activations you have made and see who may benefit from certain features. Most, if not all will remember that gesture and appreciate you and maybe even refer people to you also.

Originally Posted by elushon

Here's a legit question about inadvertant flipping...

A guy told me to go ahead and take the 7 to 7 off his son's line, since it was now 9 bucks. I did so, and then he proceeded to tell me he wanted to go ahead and upgrade. Well the kid was happy about the new phone, but thought the world was ending since 7 -7 was gone. Father caved and told me to put it back on midway through activating.

So of course guess what it looks like I did?

Anyway I noted the account of what happened in case a rep did get a charge back and could investigate...Is there any way other than that of handling that type of situation?

Originally Posted by SoCal91302

Another honest way to make a buck and take care of your customers at the same time is to set aside an hour or so per month and look over old upgrades/activations you have made and see who may benefit from certain features. Most, if not all will remember that gesture and appreciate you and maybe even refer people to you also.

Originally Posted by penk

if you're doing nothing more than "updating" the original, identical feature, then you have done nothing more than push a button, and no salesmanship was involved.

in this circumstance, and as your previous post describes, this equates to theft - or "stealing" - in a fairly direct definition of terms.

Originally Posted by sixty6stang

actually, if the customer has an old bundle package, and you switch it with a new bundle package, then the sale is yours! if the original sales rep didn't take the time to do his/her callbacks..... in COR it is called 2-2-2 , then the original sales rep really has nothing to say..... and it is NOT feature flipping...

Originally Posted by Rcadden

Absolutely not. Again, if the customer doesn't specifically say "Please update my features" or something like that, you should not make any changes. I have the OLD OLD MediaWorks package, $20 for unlimited data, 1500 sms, and 200 mms. If you switched it with the new $20 bundle package, I lose 700 messages/month. You can bet I'll notice.

If you see the customer has an old package, the CORRECT thing to do would be say, "Mr. Jones. I notice you have an older data package on your account. We've updated these recently, you may be able to get more features for the same amount of money." Then do a comparison, and if so, Mr. Jones will say, "Sixty6stang, you're right. Thanks for noticing that, please go ahead and update my package so I've got the newest."

Anything other than that transaction is INCORRECT and if done to me I would have your manager notified, AFTER he/she puts the correct package on my account.

Originally Posted by tkdlove

1. as a customer please understand that those who keep grandfathering plans are the ones who "financially" hold us back. my belief is if there is no update in features and rate plan (especially off old old old stuff) then no new phone and no extended insurance and no room to complain.

Originally Posted by Prometheus2k2

That's correct. Noting it is exactly what you should do. You can flip any feature if you have a good reason to do it. Customer request is a DAMN GOOD REASON.

One Love,
Prom

P.S. Upselling is always a good reason.

Originally Posted by mentalcase

Beside upselling, ive actually see if the customers use all of there features. For instance a customer came in and had msg extreme that some rep sold them. They were only using 500 msgs so i told them i could save them 5 bucks a month and boom i get credit for the feature. You gotta do what you gotta do. Let me ask you a questions though. If a customer comes in and have blackberry international and asks to go to the regular blackberry and i put that in my codes, is that wrong?

Originally Posted by tkdlove

very true and i agree, but....

1. as a customer please understand that those who keep grandfathering plans are the ones who "financially" hold us back. my belief is if there is no update in features and rate plan (especially off old old old stuff) then no new phone and no extended insurance and no room to complain.

2. i just love it when customers come in here and say " if that was me then i would have you fired/disciplined etc..."
you can't... your ARPU and profitibility does not cover the cost of hiring, training, and retaining an employee. so there for you have no pull over the staff. STOP THINKING YOU CAN FIRE ANYONE BECAUSE YOU BOUGHT A CAR CHARGER!!

3. YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON IN THESE "EMPLOYEE" DISCUSSIONS! PLEASE REFRAIN FROM ACTING LIKE YOU HAVE A CLUE!

please understand "CUSTOMERS":
you opinion and point of view is duelly noted now please sign in, sit down and shut up...


for those of you out there that would swap codes and take $$ away from your fellow employee (whether same store or not) should be shot! you are hurting your co-workers and the customer. you should stop...

Originally Posted by Ver2

Wow guys...i dont see what the big deal is here....If you guys think it is a legitimate thing, quit crying...If not, do the right thing and put it back under the original dealer code it was sold under.....if someone's pda connect isnt working and you know they are well within the 6month window...do the right thing...put it under the other person's dealer code....if you cant do it, have your manager do it. It's possible...ive done it.

v2

Originally Posted by bumfights

When I first started I was written up for this exact reason. However, I always called and verified with the customer that it was alright to sign them up. I actually got a lot of new activations and upgrades while doing this as well, because the customers were so happy I was paying attention to them. My manager noticed I was doing really well and I told her how I was saving people money and giving them more, thinking I was doing the customer right. Boom. Write up. Didn't make much sense to me, seeing as how we are drilled so often that "The Customer Rules!"

The RSC that told me about this initially has now flipped about $1,500 total from me. I will sell a customer a PDA plan and then he will sell them a Media Max plan on my days off if they happen to come in. It's lame because he gets a boost in his FPO and I get a huge charge back. My manager was fine with this practice because he's been there longer than me, and excellent at new activations.

It then comes from higher ups that if someone is down selling from a PDA connect to a Media Max plan, then the original rep should still get credit for it.
Of course said rep in my store does not follow this practice, and then has the audacity to talk trash to me about him finishing #1 in the store for the month in features. This company makes wolves out of dogs, and that is the truth. Note that it is still not correct to sell this feature for Windows Mobile 5.0 devices, for "billing" purposes, even though it works just fine in 9 out of 10 cases. Now that the unlimited M2M packages have come about, I have reclaimed all of my features from said rep and reported him to my manager and the VPGM, as I'm tired of his behavior.

This company encourages this kind of behavior and it is sad. They want you to be this great salesperson and maximize ARPU, only to have your sale stolen by someone that simply offered a lower plan. And don't even get me started by customer service. Sometimes a feature is simply not provisioned correctly for whatever reason and it is necessary to re-add it. Anyone that has used Telegence or seen it used knows how easy it is to re-add the feature in the original dealer code. Why the CSR's aren't trained in this practice is baffling and makes the average RSC wonder.

It just makes me sad I've been selling people so hard on M2M text messaging and the original RSC is getting a charge back just so I can meet my ridiculous $20 FPO quota and maybe have a decent paycheck for the month. What a fantastic company.

Originally Posted by BroPhone 10/08/06

Greetings, fellow agents. I work for a COR store in MN and last week I received an e-mail from corporate indicating that feature flipping will be automatically audited and Cingular will even go as far as to start pressing criminal charges againsts employees that partake in such actions, because it's technically theft. Of course, if caught, you're automatically fired.

Originally Posted by suthurnlatino 4/13/07

Flip, I guess from that logic if someone flipped a customer back and forth between plans they'd never get caught. ( Blackberry internet + 9.99 or the blackberry max plan.)

Bumfights summed it up pretty nice, I feel the same way about the BS that goes on in Cingular and how these fraudulent people are covered by the managers.

Originally Posted by TxTwin

Corporate Cingular needs to take definitive action on the issue of FLIPPING. No customer's account should be changed without prior approval (except automatic changes that Cingular uses with a sweep to clean up old codes for same service or changes to non-contract items that have been notified to the customer appropriately under the TOS [That-- in itself is a whole other topic]).

Originally Posted by Sonix

Don't kid yourself Cingular ain't budging they know whats happening and it's working for them! The reps that do it either know it's wrong or have gotten so bent they are in denial.

The way I see it is it will only, miraculously, change on the eve of government action.

Slamming...flipping...cramming, it comes in all flavors! Oh, yet another black eye for the sales profession!

Originally Posted by TxTwin

This thread proves how much "BS" there is at Cingular -- at the management level, and at the rep level. I noticed that the "Official Announcements" and the start of this thread was 10/08/06 -- there have been many threads the past few months on this topic in the main forum, and here....with evidence of many reps still flipping features and still saying it is OKAY -- regardless of if they have the customer's approval, the feature is the same or not, or if it is vested or not. Once again, there have been evidence of stores that a customer has never visited messing with media features without prior discussion and approval of the customer (See recent threads in main forum).

Now, 6 months later, I see no evidence of the "automatic auditing" or "criminal charges" based on continued reports of customers having features changed without their prior knowledge/approval, and reps still talking about chargebacks from a flipper, or meeting feature goals by flipping.....

Corporate Cingular needs to take definitive action on the issue of FLIPPING. No customer's account should be changed without prior approval (except automatic changes that Cingular uses with a sweep to clean up old codes for same service or changes to non-contract items that have been notified to the customer appropriately under the TOS [That-- in itself is a whole other topic]).

Originally Posted by CingularZ

Cingular can get rid of this issue so easily imo..

All they have to do is make sure that for every feature/data added to customer account associated to the line only, it should be locked for 180 days to that original dealer code regardless

So it doesnt matter if Joe's media connect gets deleted and added by 40 reps from the original date, assuming its not past the 180 days, and not on the 181 th day.. then the original dealer gets paid regardless

And being said, to catch these lame foolios who think they can make a sale on a sale already made, any rep who tries to flip should get a warning sent to that person , CC back to manager, and regional plus to the original dealer code

Kind of like the SKATE warnings , that auto sales man get...

because the reason why this is happening is because there is no trace, and no sales person is going to sit there and track all their sales for 180 days to make sure no one steals it ..

Originally Posted by CingularZ

Cingular can get rid of this issue so easily imo..

All they have to do is make sure that for every feature/data added to customer account associated to the line only, it should be locked for 180 days to that original dealer code regardless

So it doesnt matter if Joe's media connect gets deleted and added by 40 reps from the original date, assuming its not past the 180 days, and not on the 181 th day.. then the original dealer gets paid regardless

And being said, to catch these lame foolios who think they can make a sale on a sale already made, any rep who tries to flip should get a warning sent to that person , CC back to manager, and regional plus to the original dealer code

Kind of like the SKATE warnings , that auto sales man get...

because the reason why this is happening is because there is no trace, and no sales person is going to sit there and track all their sales for 180 days to make sure no one steals it ..

Originally Posted by CingularZ

because the reason why this is happening is because there is no trace, and no sales person is going to sit there and track all their sales for 180 days to make sure no one steals it ..

Originally Posted by cingman66

Wrong! I track every sale for as long as it takes to make sure I got paid and not wrongly charged back. And 90% of the time when I find a false charge back, it was CS who did it...and like Lambert posted, it was suspiciously close to the 185-day vesting period...Hmmmm

Originally Posted by Lambert

I do not condone flipping features, but if you take a look at who benefits from it you will see why it continues.

Originally Posted by TxTwin

And, I still think that #5 is not the reason unless most reps are too lazy to check their commissions for unjustified chargebacks. The time adjusting all these "chargebacks" and investigating challenges is $ as well.

Interesting....I suppose the "logic" is that if a customer has a new feature, they may not know the best "version" of that feature until they use it for a while. Someone mentioned that when a feature is changed for a feature in the same group -- during the vesting, it should be prorated. Because, if the first rep hadn't sold the customer on trying the feature to start with, the second rep might not have been able to get them to the higher feature. Some logic in this....
Say for me texting....I don't use it, none of my friends use it (only younger coworkers) -- Say rep X tries to sell me on TXT, but fails, and rep Y comes along and sells me on the lowest plan a month later. I get hooked on TXT and the next rep (X, Z or whom ever) comes along, and they are now able to easily sell me the bigger TXT plan. Just because they upgraded me to the bigger plan, doesn't mean they would have been able to sell me on the initial plan when I had not yet used TXT.

Originally Posted by cingman66

Actually, most reps ARE too lazy to check, which is why there isn't much fuss made about it...except on here (then again, most reps on here are on the ball).

Originally Posted by TxTwin

I think someone mentioned this "prorated" mechanisim in a previous flipping thread.

Originally Posted by ORANGEDAD

So how would any one handle your features being flipped by one of your css's in the store. They get paid more per hour than rsc's but feel that they need to steal an rsc's feature dollars to comp them since they don't get paid for acts or upgrades. The two css's in our store are not to be trusted with anything to do with store ops.

Originally Posted by Lambert

HR, management, union. Any or all would get them terminated.

Originally Posted by .7

I would love to see this course of action taken with indirect agents and resellers, like having their licenses pulled or something. It just seems to me that in the world of indirects there are no consequences when it comes to flipping, none whatsoever. Hey, I love all you indirects in here but from the outside looking in thats what I see, I might be wrong.

Originally Posted by cingman66

I don't see any consequences for CS or COR for flipping, either.

Originally Posted by BroPhone

Let me get this straight. Are you actually complaining that you are no longer allowed to steal features from other sales reps/cingular?!?! If new bundles come out (such as the new Blackberry Connect w/messaging for 54.99), then you are allowed to change it to that. Cingular is always revamping their data plans. You simply have to qualify your customers for the new feature. For example, somebody today had a media works 19.99 package on their account. I mentioned that I could save them $5 on their bill a month. I explained the newer bundles to them and switched it over. Other than that, if you didn't sell the importance of that feature to the customer, then you should not get credit for it. Also, if you think those are the only features for that opp, then it may be time to rethink your sales strategy. There are plenty of other things to sell them (early nights and weekends, roadside, etc). If you're having difficulty acheiving your goals, try one thing:

-for EVERY customer that comes in (I mean every customer), look at their bill/features. I don't care if they're just buying a car charger or paying a bill. There's at least a 40% chance that there's a feature they can be qualified for. We have this new schmuck sales rep in the store (actually, he's just as new as I am), and he never checks customers' bills. Yesterday a customer he was dealing with started talking to me after he had dealt with them (upgrades, etc). I ended up qualifying and selling them $55 worth of media bundles. He missed out on it because he didn't have the initiative to actually check. I even asked him what the deal was, along the lines of, "Why aren't you doing that? You went to the exact same training I did. They sent us for a reason." The same also works with accessories.


-Sam

Originally Posted by codered07

I work for an agent and we were told by the president of our company to flip features. Months ago we were told to apply business discounts "Fan Discounts" to non qualifying customers accounts . These discounts are used to help close deals or features.

Originally Posted by codered07

I work for an agent and we were told by the president of our company to flip features. Months ago we were told to apply business discounts "Fan Discounts" to non qualifying customers accounts . These discounts are used to help close deals or features.

Originally Posted by colione

I was waiting for something like this to happen... Every single person I call about features (ala ROCCS, old customers, etc) I call from my COU line. That way if they say I didn't call the customer, I can tell them to pull the usage up and look at the numbers I called and how long I talked to them. I also note the account as to why I called and that I got approval from the customer to change their account.

It's a good way to CYA.

Originally Posted by MrDumbDumb

I hope you aren't calling customers up on your mobile after looking at ROCCS, that is grounds for dismisal and hefty fines. We have someone in our office we call "sir saves a lot" he'll just go through numbers and call up every customer after 6 months and say,"you don't need that plan, let me change that for you" he downgraded 48 Media Max packages last year to media basic and about 12 Blackberry Connect to BlackBerry Personal." He is the Robin Hood of the cellular world.

Originally Posted by MrDumbDumb

I hope you aren't calling customers up on your mobile after looking at ROCCS, that is grounds for dismisal and hefty fines. We have someone in our office we call "sir saves a lot" he'll just go through numbers and call up every customer after 6 months and say,"you don't need that plan, let me change that for you" he downgraded 48 Media Max packages last year to media basic and about 12 Blackberry Connect to BlackBerry Personal." He is the Robin Hood of the cellular world.

Originally Posted by ivwshane

Not much you can do in that case. The rep changed the feature to something different. It sucks but its not wrong. Now if the rep had removed and then added the bb $45 plan then I would hope that that rep gets fired.