vB Easy Archive - Unlock shop in Tokyo - owner/workers arrested!

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Unlock shop in Tokyo - owner/workers arrested!
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Posted by: Tannoi

http://k-tai.impress.co.jp/cda/arti...page/30723.html

Basically says Vodafone consulted with the Tokyo Police and then they went and arrested 4 employees (including the owner) for violating some "fair practices" law. Some copyright thing. I wonder if they still would have been arrested had they just been unlocking phones rather than selling pre-unlocked phones? Either way - this sucks.

I know of this shop - it was a tiny store about 10 mins on the Chuo Line from Shinjuku I think. Never went there but was planning on it if/when the 904 was ready to be unlocked.

Posted by: Ohgami

Dang, they have a name of the shop in the Article? My Japanese is not that great (I should get back to studying again)

Posted by: yakuzasentinel

yeah, they've even had news stories about this on TV in Japan apparently. Vodafone claims they lost just under $4 million US (i can't remember if this was monthly or overall) due to the practice. Tokyo police arrested a chinese man who ran multiple unlock shops, and it looks like they're trying to set a legal precedent in the courts.

Posted by: AL9999

Old news, this happened months ago.

Anyway they didn't name the shops, but I suspect one of them is Tokyo Bikan, because the same day that news story broke, Tokyo Bikan's website had a huge flashy message saying they don't condone, support or perform unlocking services for any Japan domestic market phone. Go figure...

But if you didn't believe that Softbank lost huge amounts of money from unlocking services you'd have to be kidding yourself. They heavily subsidise the phones they sell, so when someone unlocks it and sends it out of Japan Softbank doesn't get a return on its subsidy and they lose money. Go and see how many Softbank models line the windows of Hong Kong phone retailers and you get an idea just how much Softbank is losing (Softbank subsidises up to 3/4 of the phone cost).

For the record, Softbank is currently thinking about selling phones SIM-unlocked. They've already brought in Western-style two-year contracts with phone repayments per month, so they might go ahead and do this too. Hope they do...

Posted by: yakuzasentinel

I don't see why Softbank would offer unlocked phones... From a business standpoint, I don't think it makes any sense for them to do so.

True, many new Softbank models may be appearing in shops worldwide, but it's important to note that none of these are unlockable yet (of the 11 or so new models, with the exception of the X01HT). The shops are almost certainly purchasing stock based on speculation. If it becomes apparent that no new models can be unlocked, the occurrences of contract cancellations will naturally decline.

Also, the only other operator in Japan which an unlocked phone could be used with is Docomo's FOMA (which offers their own, arguably nicer phones to customers at low prices), so the average Japanese consumer probably couldn't care less as to whether or not Softbank unlocked their phones.

Ok, so people like us who want to export these phones to use with our local providers would benefit from it, but realistically, are we really the target market that Softbank wants to be focusing on? Anyways, most of us probably wouldn't own Vodafones if we had to pay Vodafone Japan's handset-only prices (if such a thing were to exist). Tack on the importers' and resellers' margins, and you've probably got yourself a $1000 phone.

Just my two cents.

Posted by: yangj08

Why couldn't Softbank work out an agreement with an international provider to get the phones out to other countries where those providers could subsidize and sell these phones at a price people can afford? Sure that means no exporting and seeing these wonderful phones with Cingular branding or some such thing, but it's better than the other options. Interesting, though- I didn't know before that Softbank subsidized that much of the cost (I wonder why American providers won't- it's worked for them pretty well). Now if only the FOMAs could be unlocked-roaming's the first step, next should be unlocking them.

Posted by: AL9999

In response to Yakuzasentinel's post:

Agree with everything you say. If they can never unlock the phones, then they'll stop buying them in the hope that someday they'll get unlocked. And Softbank doesn't need to sell unlocked phones in Japan, although my point was that Softbank CEO Masayoshi Son said they were examining the idea of unlocking the phone once a subscriber's Super Bonus contract is finished.

But the fact that they're keeping GSM out of their high-end handsets makes you wonder. Is it just to keep costs down or is it really to discourage export unlocking? I don't know, but it's annoying some of Softbank's own subscriber base which really likes the roaming capability.

Posted by: AL9999

In response to yangj08's post:

Too hard - 1. Japan's subsidy system is so different to the rest of the world it would take too long to have it accepted (and Japan's operators are actually trying to get rid of it anyway); 2. Little demand - particularly in the US, the handsets are far more advanced than what the majority of people are happy to have, so demand will be low and Sharp needs a decent-sized bulk order to make it worth their while. Plus there's other more minor factors...

Personally I don't think Softbank cares about having the phones designed for their network exported worldwide. It's just too big a distraction from their core Japan business.

Posted by: Tannoi

Old news? Yeah I know - thanks stats.

But news to me and evidentally news to a few others around here.

Incidentally, the shop was L & K Mobile I think.

Posted by: SpecC

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL9999

In response to yangj08's post:

Too hard - 1. Japan's subsidy system is so different to the rest of the world it would take too long to have it accepted (and Japan's operators are actually trying to get rid of it anyway); 2. Little demand - particularly in the US, the handsets are far more advanced than what the majority of people are happy to have, so demand will be low and Sharp needs a decent-sized bulk order to make it worth their while. Plus there's other more minor factors...

Personally I don't think Softbank cares about having the phones designed for their network exported worldwide. It's just too big a distraction from their core Japan business.

Totally agree with you. In fact, there might be a huge competition due to it's price. Not everyone in America can afford or willing to buy a $600+ phone, but yea it's sad that sharp does not release phone by itself.

Posted by: UncleAllEvil

I think EU network providers can offer Sharp high end phones but their target should be business customers. $600 is nothing when you have business contract because this cost goes to company costs and through tax allowances you can take most of this money back (sorry for that VERY simple explanation) at last that`s how it works in my country. Because of that, people on business contracts usually don`t care how much they pay for they phone. For "normal" people these phones should be available but at much higher prices (as it is now with exclusive high end phones like Nokia N93) due to the fact that individual contracts are cheaper.
From my point of view there is only one problem: Sharp phones are not known to most people in EU (except UK) or US and require smart (very smart) promotion.

Posted by: yakuzasentinel

UncleAllEvil: I agree, but it would probably be difficult for Sharp to establish a stronghold in the market, especially in Europe where O2 XDAs and similar devices seem to be the norm for business communication.

AL: Very true. Here in Canada, most people seem quite content with their $0 RAZRs and such, so I couldn't see them forking over hundreds of dollars just for a Sharp.

In fact, the most frequent response I get when someone sees my phone is "Why would someone pay $500 for a PHONE?!", so I'd say this sums up the attitude of most North Americans (well, minus the majority of asians :hehehe

Posted by: Ohgami

True I also get about the same amount of oogles as well from my 802SH. Then I tell them how old it is and they go into shock. So it goes both ways.
(I payed $250US for my Phone in Early 2005 as some store in Osaka was liquidating them on ebay plus the $100 for unlocking it)

Posted by: yangj08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tannoi

Incidentally, the shop was L & K Mobile I think.

L&K? Their website's still up,but all references to Japanese phones being unlocked have been removed. They also removed references to their Shanghai branch too ( http://www.mobile-tech.cn/ ), probably to avoid being prosecuted for that (the Shanghai store still does unlocks, I checked- I imagine if they really wanted to they could get the unlocking done in the Shanghai store and send the unlocked phone back to Japan as an under-the-table deal.)

Posted by: sketch143

In the end, there's still a niche market that Softbank can satisfy by offering unlocked phones. You have to remember, a lot of rich kids out there are willing to pay 500-1000 dollars for a nice and rare phone. Want some examples? Let's take the N93.. it was priced at $1000+ CAD when it first came out, yet tons of people bought it regardless the price coz it provides them with status. Some other examples are Sony Ericsson's P990i and W950. Sharps were expensive in europe i heard, but people still went ahead and got it anyways. Nokia's N80 was around that $800 line when it first came out, the demand was high anyways. We'll see the same trend when Nokia's N95 comes out.

So no once can really say which is profitable or not at this point since it really requires a lot of research. Of course, we all think we're so smart trying to analyze what's profitable and what's not for both softbank and sharp at this point. But what i can say and what's proven is that, at some point, there's always something random and unpredictable that will happen that will change the market's desire in a direction that's opposite of what people predict it to be. Who knows? although you people might doubt that this'll happen, but you can't deny the possibility that Sharp might do something smart that will push them to become the leader interms of cellphone sales and technology.

@Yakuza Sentinel:
You can't discount the fact that, in canada, the populations is dominated by non-white people who are able to make more money that an average canadian. In a few years or so, the population might be composed of a lot of rich HK people who are willing to splurge on random things such as rare cellphones. Mind you, that's already the trend right now. I remember when i started using the 802 and my friend was using the 903, that was about a month after 903's unlock came out. The price of 903s back then was around 580-600 (locked). A few months after, price rose up to 700-ish cad, and you'd see more and more people using 903s.

I doubt that price is the only thing stopping people in EU to purchase sharp phones. You have to remember, right now, sharp phones is basically designed to house JP technology. If sharp were to develop a phone that's designed for the world and not just for japan specifically. i doubt they'd be in the position that they are now. Because, right now, all i can see that they're doing is designing phones for japan and trying to sell the japan specific phone to EU, HK, TW and so on. That's why we always assume that Sharp/Softbank is not gonna be successful if they do offer unlocked phones.

Once softbank does start offering unlocked phones, sharp can use the sales data and such to design a better product that can compete in the world market.

This maybe a bad mistake in the eyes of many, but when you analyze thoroughly it, it's a good oppurtunity for both Sharp and Softbank to do this and learn things from it.

Just the 0.02 clams of Sketch. =p

Posted by: SpecC

Quote:

Originally Posted by sketch143

In the end, there's still a niche market that Softbank can satisfy by offering unlocked phones. You have to remember, a lot of rich kids out there are willing to pay 500-1000 dollars for a nice and rare phone. Want some examples? Let's take the N93.. it was priced at $1000+ CAD when it first came out, yet tons of people bought it regardless the price coz it provides them with status. Some other examples are Sony Ericsson's P990i and W950. Sharps were expensive in europe i heard, but people still went ahead and got it anyways. Nokia's N80 was around that $800 line when it first came out, the demand was high anyways. We'll see the same trend when Nokia's N95 comes out.

So no once can really say which is profitable or not at this point since it really requires a lot of research. Of course, we all think we're so smart trying to analyze what's profitable and what's not for both softbank and sharp at this point. But what i can say and what's proven is that, at some point, there's always something random and unpredictable that will happen that will change the market's desire in a direction that's opposite of what people predict it to be. Who knows? although you people might doubt that this'll happen, but you can't deny the possibility that Sharp might do something smart that will push them to become the leader interms of cellphone sales and technology.

@Yakuza Sentinel:
You can't discount the fact that, in canada, the populations is dominated by non-white people who are able to make more money that an average canadian. In a few years or so, the population might be composed of a lot of rich HK people who are willing to splurge on random things such as rare cellphones. Mind you, that's already the trend right now. I remember when i started using the 802 and my friend was using the 903, that was about a month after 903's unlock came out. The price of 903s back then was around 580-600 (locked). A few months after, price rose up to 700-ish cad, and you'd see more and more people using 903s.

I doubt that price is the only thing stopping people in EU to purchase sharp phones. You have to remember, right now, sharp phones is basically designed to house JP technology. If sharp were to develop a phone that's designed for the world and not just for japan specifically. i doubt they'd be in the position that they are now. Because, right now, all i can see that they're doing is designing phones for japan and trying to sell the japan specific phone to EU, HK, TW and so on. That's why we always assume that Sharp/Softbank is not gonna be successful if they do offer unlocked phones.

Once softbank does start offering unlocked phones, sharp can use the sales data and such to design a better product that can compete in the world market.

This maybe a bad mistake in the eyes of many, but when you analyze thoroughly it, it's a good oppurtunity for both Sharp and Softbank to do this and learn things from it.

Just the 0.02 clams of Sketch. =p

wow now I am wondering why Sharp needs SoftBank's help if they want to make their phones available outside of Japan? They could have done it just by itself.

Posted by: essense

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL9999

But if you didn't believe that Softbank lost huge amounts of money from unlocking services you'd have to be kidding yourself. They heavily subsidise the phones they sell, so when someone unlocks it and sends it out of Japan Softbank doesn't get a return on its subsidy and they lose money. Go and see how many Softbank models line the windows of Hong Kong phone retailers and you get an idea just how much Softbank is losing (Softbank subsidises up to 3/4 of the phone cost).

so what you mean is that the money they lose is when people use their phones but not their phone plans? or...?? well... way to take over... why not just take away the sim card like Telus does....? but the fact that they don't let people unlock their phones.. =O=;; eww i hate softbank!!

Posted by: yakuzasentinel

Sketch: You don't exactly see $1000 phones flying off the shelves in Canadian stores. There will always be people who are willing to fork over that much for a phone for whatever reason, just like theres people who will pay $2500 for a PS3 just to guarantee themselves one right on the launch date. But that doesn't represent the majority of the population. And I don't think it's fair to say that the majority of "non-white" people would be interested in spending that much on a sharp. I'm sure the vast majority of canadian cell phone users are satisfied with their $0 with contract phones or other no-frills handsets. When you say "more people" are beginning to use the 903, what is this on a per-capita basis? Probably pretty damn low. It also depends on the people you associate with-- I bet if you asked a "white" person they'd say they've never seen a single one in their life. And trust me, it's not usually the above-average income earners that are buying expensive sharp phones. In fact, I know alot of teens who've worked part time jobs or blown huge chunks of their life savings just to afford a nice phone that they can show off to their friends.

Let's use the SX633 as an example. To my understanding, Smartone-Vodafone sells these off-contract sim-free, ready to be exported. Although they are widely available from phone dealers worldwide now, I've yet to see a single person using one (and I even live in quite an asian neighbourhoood, Markham).

essence: yeah, obviously softbank loses money on cancelled contracts and i'm sure softbank hates all of us just as much for acquiring grey-market phones. removing the sim card is impossible because Softbank and other GSM operators are not "like telus"...i'm not even going to go there.

Posted by: SpecC

Quote:

Originally Posted by yakuzasentinel

Sketch: You don't exactly see $1000 phones flying off the shelves in Canadian stores. There will always be people who are willing to fork over that much for a phone for whatever reason, just like theres people who will pay $2500 for a PS3 just to guarantee themselves one right on the launch date. But that doesn't represent the majority of the population. And I don't think it's fair to say that the majority of "non-white" people would be interested in spending that much on a sharp. I'm sure the vast majority of canadian cell phone users are satisfied with their $0 with contract phones or other no-frills handsets. When you say "more people" are beginning to use the 903, what is this on a per-capita basis? Probably pretty damn low. It also depends on the people you associate with-- I bet if you asked a "white" person they'd say they've never seen a single one in their life. And trust me, it's not usually the above-average income earners that are buying expensive sharp phones. In fact, I know alot of teens who've worked part time jobs or blown huge chunks of their life savings just to afford a nice phone that they can show off to their friends.

Let's use the SX633 as an example. To my understanding, Smartone-Vodafone sells these off-contract sim-free, ready to be exported. Although they are widely available from phone dealers worldwide now, I've yet to see a single person using one (and I even live in quite an asian neighbourhoood, Markham).

essence: yeah, obviously softbank loses money on cancelled contracts and i'm sure softbank hates all of us just as much for acquiring grey-market phones. removing the sim card is impossible because Softbank and other GSM operators are not "like telus"...i'm not even going to go there.

Right on! I think Sketch assumes every single asian is using a 903, but this is not the case as there are some not so rich kids among the asian. so they go for other brand. like SE, Nokia.

Posted by: Kevbodian

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL9999

In response to Yakuzasentinel's post:

But the fact that they're keeping GSM out of their high-end handsets makes you wonder. Is it just to keep costs down or is it really to discourage export unlocking? I don't know, but it's annoying some of Softbank's own subscriber base which really likes the roaming capability.

Probably because Softbank is much more... how do I say... kokunai focused versus Vodafone. Only a small portion of their users really need GSM so while they pump out sexy UMTS phones for their main user base, they don't need top-of-the-line phones for the users that travel. Especially since countries that are using GSM networks usually don't have the kind of network that will support many of the features their higher-end phones have.

Posted by: AL9999

Perhaps. That's what I originally believed anyway - they're cutting costs by kicking out GSM because the majority of their subscriber base doesn't care about roaming.

But why the locking down of 3G to Softbank only? There's 3G networks in all the major countries now, so why not just let their subscribers roam on them? This is what I don't understand. DoCoMo's now doing it with their 3G roaming service, so I don't see why Softbank doesn't do it too... unless of course, they're trying to stop their phones being exported and unlocked. That's the only reason I can think of for locking down 3G connectivity to Softbank. Sharp could easily add the network selector if Softbank wanted them to...

Anyway the bottom line is, Sharp isn't going to sell phones outside Japan unless it can partner with the operator to sell it a bulk shipment of the desired handset. They've done this time and time again with Vodafone, with SmarTone and FarEasTone, and I don't see them changing their strategy here. So the quickest way to get Sharp to market handsets throughout the world again is for everyone who cares to badger Vodafone to stop going after cheapy handsets from China and work with Sharp again. And I mean Vodafone Group in the UK, not your local Voda operator.

Even then, you're gonna need a lot of people to do the convincing, so I'm not holding my breath.

As for SmarTone and FarEasTone, I think they both recognise the value of Sharp handsets and will continue to source them from Sharp. The fact that they didn't get the 770SH, but asked for a customised version of it that was closer to the up-spec 705SH, proves this.

Posted by: UncleAllEvil

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL9999

So the quickest way to get Sharp to market handsets throughout the world again is for everyone who cares to badger Vodafone to stop going after cheapy handsets from China and work with Sharp again. And I mean Vodafone Group in the UK, not your local Voda operator.

It will be hard AL, really hard

I`ve read that Vodafone Group in UK lost a lot of money last year, and this year isn`t going to be much better. That`s why they`re after cheaper handsets. Vodafone UK is too expensive. O2 is cheapest on prepaid, T-mobile is good when you want cheap contract, 3 is best when you want 3G services, orange is "average" on everything. Vodafone is best when you want expensive phone on expensive contract or you`re traveling a lot (good roaming). That`s my point of view.

Posted by: AL9999

Yeah I know... that's one of the reasons they canned Vodafone Japan in the first place. I don't know what they're doing wrong, but the continued focus on developing markets rather than their developed ones just sucks.

Maybe they've gotten too big for their boots. Who knows...

But like you say, they're hardly going to go and get high-end handsets from Sharp now.

Posted by: yangj08

Just a speculative question, but does anyone here think that China will start getting Sharp handsets (officially) once China Mobile starts their WCDMA service?

Posted by: Junglizt1210

i personally don't think so. China (mainland) isn't big on Made in Japan stuff, more homebrew stuff, the TD-SCDMA they are producing is no different. Hong Kong is different though, and you get mainlanders going down there to buy quality big name brands. Thats a well known fact.

China has always preferred it's own Chinese goods etc.. cheap (pricewise) is the essence of a growing population/economy for them.

Posted by: essense

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junglizt1210

China has always preferred it's own Chinese goods etc.. cheap (pricewise) is the essence of a growing population/economy for them.

cheap? not even... they sell fake eggs...

Posted by: Kevbodian

so yeah.. some people got arrested eh

Posted by: Junglizt1210

Quote:

Originally Posted by essense

cheap? not even... they sell fake eggs...

i was going to go about saying it this way, i just didnt want to offend other members on the board. i am chinese myself btw.

Posted by: Timsta

well.. fake eggs was in the news about a month ago.. just bad business.. altho i was really curious as to what they made the fake eggs with tho

i was reading this last week.. and i must say.. wow sketch wrote a long post that actually makes sense for once. somewhat. but he does see 1000 dollar phones fly off the shelves.. he lives in richmond... things overly priced fly off the shelves there.

Posted by: takkisatoshi

hi i would like to ask where could i get a 903sh / 904sh in japan store either locked or unlocked without signing up their plan as i will be travelling to japan during holiday ?? What about the price ??

Posted by: scotttttttttt

You can't, you HAVE TO sign up to a plan.

Posted by: Junglizt1210

Yahoo auctions or find one second hand somewhere. You can get them in HK anyway...?!!?

Posted by: takkisatoshi

i was wondering if i could get it cheaper in japan that is why ... thxs

Posted by: faifai9394

Well the truth is the wealth wasn't distributed evenly in china and most of the people were too poor to own a 500 USD phone. That's why they will tend to go for the cheap home grown phone. For all those fake stuff, I think they will keep coming up. Even for phones, they copy the same exactly design and just changing the names on the phone. Problem is they their technology wise was still not up to par (for phones) that's why they can only copy the older style phone.