vB Easy Archive - why do corporations use blackberrys vs. blackjacks?

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why do corporations use blackberrys vs. blackjacks?
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Posted by: campas12

is there something holding blackjacks back?

i've seen blackberrys and treo's being used the most.

Posted by: christian15213

Good question... Buy blackberry and BJ's are comparable not a treo 750... Although the 8525 is making some huge inroads, especially among doctors... So, sooner than later the HTC's are going to probably take the lionshare. The BJ to me isn't that special.. .It is nice and does a lot and is for sure good for the money... but it isn't a power player.

Posted by: Foxbat121

BlackBerries have a foot hold in corporations long before Microsoft had its push email solution. That's the main reason. That been said, a lot companies now support both platforms. It's really about how your IT department can easily pickup the task and manage the WM deployment.

Posted by: embellisher

What Foxbat said. BlackBerries have such market penetration in the business world that it will take time for WM to catch up. And the Blackjack has only been out for 6 months. One doesn't unseat a vendor like RIM that has years of business use overnight.

Posted by: eimajuno

Plus, RIMs push email is a key selling point for those who constantly need their email when they are out and about.

Posted by: Foxbat121

Quote:

Originally Posted by eimajuno

Plus, RIMs push email is a key selling point for those who constantly need their email when they are out and about.

Not if there is an outage on RIM network like they suffered a few weeks ago. Then everyone are out. On the other hand, Microsoft's push email service does not have such weak link. Basically, it's carrier's network and your Companies' internet connect. There is no 3rd part involved.

Posted by: MyPyle

i wish htc would come out with something that is the same designed as the 8525 but only slimmer.

Posted by: DubDub

The BB is secure, has no camera, OS is rock solid, and email is the best. Plus, as others mentioned, RIM has been in the mobile/handheld market for a long time and has a very dedicated following.

Posted by: richy240

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubDub

The BB is secure, has no camera, OS is rock solid, and email is the best. Plus, as others mentioned, RIM has been in the mobile/handheld market for a long time and has a very dedicated following.

But that's all it does well: email. And I guess these days phone too, but not as well as it should. And it isn't as rock solid as you may think. Yeah, it's more stable than WM5/6, but I'll take better functionality with a few problems over strictly email and no problems any day.

Posted by: MobileAddict

Along with everything said above the OS is so simple to use. Ive only had mine a month and its the best device ive ever used. Now only if theyd make a 3G model....

Posted by: ceebz

Quote:

Originally Posted by richy240

Contrary to ignorant opinion, the Blackberry has a pretty diverse library of 3rd party software offerings. They may be more business oriented but, not everybody buys a $400 piece of hardware to skin the today screen.

And yes, the BB OS is as rock solid as you think, I've every BB gsm model that's available and never had ANY sort of stability issues.

Posted by: gammite

blackberry is as prevalent as it is for three reasons.

1. they have been around since 1984 and have a proven, time tested solution with branding and market penetration at juggernaut status.

2. security. security. security. blackberry is the most secure wireless email solution. the U.S. federal govt will only use blackberry because of this.

3. ease of use and implementation for I.T. departments and end users. if you cant figure out how to install a Blackberry Enterprise Server or use a Blackberry handheld device you are an idiot and should not be working in I.T. or for that company.

with all that said i still prefer Good Mobile Messaging.

but by 2010 Microsoft Direct Push will be running the show.......

Posted by: Quake97

Blackberry's push email is still "better" that Microsofts. It's literally real-time. You read a message on your BB and it's instantaneously updates in your Inbox. The Microsoft solution takes much longer. I'm sure they'll work on it and it'll get much better.

Joe

Posted by: Foxbat121

It's called download while you read. WM6.0 has the feature already. In current WM5, you configure either push down header only, selected size of email or entire email.

Posted by: spotdog14

bleh, ill stick with my Symbian phone.

Posted by: briareus

Centralized management for BB is still light years ahead of what competitors have to offer. While there are other push email solutions out there I haven't run across anything that I would consider competitive. As others have said, while the OS is pretty austere it works well and has an elegance of simplicity to it (which is easily another man's lack of features). "It just works" and that's what matters most for us.

Battery life, hardware durability and software stability are huge pluses for BB. We routinely evaluate other devices but haven't found anything that comes close. We may be missing out on some cute whistles and bells until RIM catches up in those areas but we're also not spending all our time supporting wireless devices or training users on them.

RIM definitely has it right with the features that matter for those who have their nose to the grinding wheel. It takes more to be a "Blackberry killer" than a qwerty keyboard and a fancy shell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by richy240

And it isn't as rock solid as you may think. Yeah, it's more stable than WM5/6, but I'll take better functionality with a few problems over strictly email and no problems any day.

The stability difference is huge in my experience. It's not just what I think but what I've had to go through with other devices and what I don't have to go through with our Blackberries.

Obviously YMMV as you can find anecdotal experience of people who have had a very stable device regardless of the specific device in question. Additionally, you might be willing to take the stability hit but none of our users would. We don't have the staff to deal with supporting WM and PalmOS devices. As it is, our Blackberry support and BES admin do these tasks part time with hundreds of deployed Blackberries in the field. Our experience shows that we'd need dedicated staff if we switched.

Take your "few problems" and multiply them by several hundred and it's suddenly not a "few problems" anymore. I don't know about your IT department but we have better things to do -- even as much of a gadget geek as I am...

I think a lot of you are simply looking at this from the end user perspective. A corporation definitely has a lot more employees than a sole proprietorship...

Quote:

Originally Posted by richy240

But that's all it does well: email.

They're not as flexible as WM or Palm devices but you're oversimplifying the situation. A tiny, tiny percentage of our users use their devices for anything but email anyway. I can't speak for other corporate environments but I suspect that it's the same as few companies have an employee base made up of a majority of tech geeks that read HoFo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by campas12

why do corporations use blackberrys vs. blackjacks?

I'd say because they want a solution that works and not just the latest toy but that's an overgeneralization as well. There are a number of reasons and it depends on the corporation you're looking at. Having an existing BB infrastructure quite often plays in to the decision but really security, management, and reliability are quite often major reasons why Blackberries are preferred. MS and the OEM's have some work to do if they want to unseat RIM. It's not just the Blackjack...

Posted by: Eagle117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat121

That been said, a lot companies now support both platforms. It's really about how your IT department can easily pickup the task and manage the WM deployment.

And the cost. I probably wouldn't mind a BlackBerry but we already have Exchange in house and it doesn't cost us anything more to use WM devices with Direct Push. BB for us was around 10K-15K just for the software plus another server to use it on...

Posted by: richy240

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceebz

Ok, show me a good PDF viewer for BB. Am I really that ignorant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gammite

2. security. security. security. blackberry is the most secure wireless email solution. the U.S. federal govt will only use blackberry because of this.

3. ease of use and implementation for I.T. departments and end users. if you cant figure out how to install a Blackberry Enterprise Server or use a Blackberry handheld device you are an idiot and should not be working in I.T. or for that company.

These are both very good points, but you'd be surprised how many times I am brought in or phoned because someone can't figure out their BES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by briareus

Centralized management for BB is still light years ahead of what competitors have to offer. While there are other push email solutions out there I haven't run across anything that I would consider competitive. As others have said, while the OS is pretty austere it works well and has an elegance of simplicity to it (which is easily another man's lack of features). "It just works" and that's what matters most for us.

Take your "few problems" and multiply them by several hundred and it's suddenly not a "few problems" anymore. I don't know about your IT department but we have better things to do -- even as much of a gadget geek as I am...

I think a lot of you are simply looking at this from the end user perspective. A corporation definitely has a lot more employees than a sole proprietorship...

These are both VERY good points.

I think many of you misunderstand me when I say BB sucks. It does, but it has a small collection of things it does well - arguably better than anyone else. But as was mentioned above, maybe that's because they've been at it since like '94 or something. Who else has been in this arena that long?

WM will continue to grow, and with the release of the next WM platform (which is supposed to be drastically different, not to mention years away) I imagine we'll see some major competitiveness where security, speed and usability is concerned.

Posted by: emuyshondt

Blackberries don't work in Japan and Korea, a major problem for many higher ups in high tech companies that have major business ventures in those areas.

I'd rather have web mail access and check my mail manually between meetings than have to get another phone when I travel in Asia. I'd take my Cingular 8525 over a Blackberry anytime. The IT department is supposed to make its users' job easier, not try to make their own job easier at the expense of end user convenience.

I've never quite understood why push mail is so much better than just having a device periodically check the server like Outlook does on a desktop. You can always set the time interval at every two minutes or every five minutes if an e-mail is that critical. Personally I prefer to manually check the server when I'm not in a meeting and I have time to pay attention to the mail than to have the device constantly beeping or vibrating when I'm busy.

Posted by: wesmills

Exchange 2003 SP2 and later use a feature called DirectPush (also "Exchange ActiveSync") that keeps a persistent HTTPS connection to your Exchange server for sending and receiving e-mail, as well as doing online contact lookups (from the Global Address List). In my testing, using both a BlackJack, an 8125 and an 2125, the e-mail delivery to my mobile device was faster than it appeared in Outlook roughly 60% of the time. Combine this with only needing Exchange (versus having to add the rather expensive BES service, and not having to deal with the accompanying security account hassles) and this is a very usable setup at minimal additional cost.

Posted by: RF9

Battery life is also a factor. BBs go for a week. WM devices are 1 day at most.
I know Semantec swithed from BB to the Blackjack because, get this, they say that Blackberry isn't secure enough. Whatev.

Posted by: christian15213

black burry suckssss... Iphone sucksss... WM is the only way to go.. Microsoft kills the market with options and functionality... The IZune phone will kill the Iphone too... They just are more smarter than the rest. Look how Xbox 360 CRUSHED Sony... PS3... LOL, Bill is just a FREAKING GENIUS...

Posted by: TomH123

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubDub

The BB is secure, has no camera, OS is rock solid, and email is the best. Plus, as others mentioned, RIM has been in the mobile/handheld market for a long time and has a very dedicated following.

WM is also secure. It uses SSL and has the ability to enforce as stringent of corporate policies to lock the keyboard as you desire along with remote wipe capabilities. Your mail is SSL from the Exchange server to the device without having your mail exposed to a third party intermeadiary (i.e. RIM). BB has no extra security that WM doesn't have.

WM has the option of no camera if that's important to you. That's a device not a platform specific thing.

From my experience WM5 is also rock solid. Haven't used WM6 yet. Maybe others are having a different experience. Having used both I see no difference.

Being an administrator of both and the only thing extra I can see the BB has is the extra monthly charge, the greater time needing to administer these devices aith their extra dedicated BES servers and the extra dependancy on a third party to go down. WM takes almost zero administration time without any extra hardware on the back end.

Other than that it's just personal preference on which device you like to use better. People are resistant to change so a lot of people who started with BB don't like WM simply because it's different. As you said it has a dedicated following. Others use WM and love it. Personally I fell that WM has a lot more capabilities with a lot more apps I can load. Some people just want the device for email so BB might be good enough.

Posted by: TomH123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quake97

Blackberry's push email is still "better" that Microsofts. It's literally real-time. You read a message on your BB and it's instantaneously updates in your Inbox. The Microsoft solution takes much longer. I'm sure they'll work on it and it'll get much better.

Joe

No it's not "literally real-time". The laws of physics aside and the use of "literally" it follows almost the path procedure Microsoft does.

With BB your device periodically checks into the RIM service to let it know it's there and ready to recieve messages. When an email is sent to you the BES server has to detect and new message was added to your Inbox then it sends a copy of that message to RIM who in turn sends the message on to your device. If your device is unavalable RIM holds on to it until your device checks in. Fairly real-time but still has to make a couple of hops. When you read an email it sends an update to RIM which in turn sends an update to the BES server which in turn tells the Exchange server to mark it as read.

With Microsoft direct push your device connects directly to the Exchange server to let it know it's there and ready to recieve messages. It submits a POST to the Exchange server and waits for a reply. When an email is sent to you the Exchange server see you're waiting for a response and it sends a copy of the email to your device. Also just as real-time with two less hops. When you read an email it sends another post directly to the Exchange server to mark it as read and actually does instantly update your mailbox because you're talking directly to the Exchange server that does the updating (unlike the extra hops BB takes).

I'm not sure where people get the notion that BB is more "real-time" when it uses the same basic delivery procedure as WM but with more hops? People somehow think WM is not "real-time" because it has to "ask" for the message with an HTTP POST. It only has to ask once then waits for some time for the response (around 15 minutes). If it doesn't get the response it asks again and waits for the response.

BB does almost the same thing but just isn't implemented as an HTTP POST so people don't think of it as a request. But the principle is the same, it still has to let the RIM service know it's still there waiting for service.

I'm not sure why you think WM "takes much longer" when it does the same thing as BB with fewer hops? It's not my experience that WM takes longer than BB.

Posted by: Rcadden

The big thing also, specifically from an IT standpoint, is security. BBs can be completely erased of all their data remotely. I.e. if I'm travelling and my Blackberry is lost, I can call my IT guy and he can erase and lockdown the blackberry so that it is completely useless, remotely. Then if I find it later I can type in a code and have it all restored OTA.

Posted by: Foxbat121

FYI, remote wipe is available on WM5 devices as well. And on WM6.0, you can even encrypt everything you stored on your storage card so that it can not be read on any other devices.

Posted by: Rcadden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat121

FYI, remote wipe is available on WM5 devices as well. And on WM6.0, you can even encrypt everything you stored on your storage card so that it can not be read on any other devices.

Thanks for the info. Guess that's why I'm the Symbian-Guru and not the Windows-Guru, lol.

Posted by: TomH123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat121

And on WM6.0, you can even encrypt everything you stored on your storage card so that it can not be read on any other devices.

... and if the Exchange server version is Exchange 2007.

Posted by: scaredpoet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rcadden

Thanks for the info. Guess that's why I'm the Symbian-Guru and not the Windows-Guru, lol.

One thing to point about remote wipe though: regardless of the platform, it only works if the phone is on and receiving a signal. A thief who is really after the data need only keep the radio turned off to retrieve what's on the device.

Posted by: TomH123

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaredpoet

And the thief has to get past the screen lock. Our policy for WM is set for 10 failed attempts to also wipe the device. I can't remember if BB has a similar policy or not?

With WM6 and Exchange 2007 you can also force the info in the device AND the add-in memory card to be encrypted. The encryption key for for the card is stored on the device so only that device can read the card. Once the device is wiped either by the remote wipe or by to many unlock failures the encryption key is gone and the memory card can't be read (unless you break the encryption).

Posted by: kylekim

I'm surprised nobody else mentioned this yet.

Not every corporation is on Exchange 200x. As shocking as it may sound, people still use Lotus Notes (yay, doing e-mail like it's 1998!) or another alternative. With that said, a BB is basically the only "tested" mobile e-mail platform/solution for those who haven't migrated to Exchange yet.

Posted by: TomH123

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylekim

I'm surprised nobody else mentioned this yet.

Not every corporation is on Exchange 200x. As shocking as it may sound, people still use Lotus Notes (yay, doing e-mail like it's 1998!) or another alternative. With that said, a BB is basically the only "tested" mobile e-mail platform/solution for those who haven't migrated to Exchange yet.

Good point. I was assuming the question was directed towards companies who had a choice between the two. If they don't have Exchange then BB is the only choice.

Posted by: GregGebhardt

Quote:

Originally Posted by richy240

Now that is funny!

I have NEVER had a Blackberry crash and have been using one for many years now.

The last WM device I had crashed twice before I left the store! I returned the POS before the day was out!

I would rather have less bells and whistles and have something I can depend on and works!

Posted by: mySRT8U

^ LIKE HE SAID, ive killed blackberries, but they have never died on me, i got three treo 750 and each one was a disease of some sort... let alone the blackjack is stupid when u text, it wont pick up half the key entries u make... and ive turned it off and reset and what not, the blackjack is a toy and not a pda

Posted by: Texasags

Quote:

Originally Posted by christian15213

black burry suckssss... Iphone sucksss... WM is the only way to go.. Microsoft kills the market with options and functionality... The IZune phone will kill the Iphone too...

Just like the Zune is "killing" the iPod? (By the way, it's "BlackBerry" and "iPhone".)

Quote:

Originally Posted by christian15213

They just are more smarter than the rest.

... as you so clearly demonstrate.

Posted by: TomH123

Quote:

Originally Posted by mySRT8U

^ LIKE HE SAID, ive killed blackberries, but they have never died on me, i got three treo 750 and each one was a disease of some sort... let alone the blackjack is stupid when u text, it wont pick up half the key entries u make... and ive turned it off and reset and what not, the blackjack is a toy and not a pda

We've had many Blackberries die and have to be replaced so I'm not convinced they're necessarily any more stable than a good WM device. The thing to keep in mind is that RIM has more control over the manufacturing of the devices and how they’re made. WM devices are made by many different manufacturers and so are subject to the individual manufacturer’s quality control. Just because one manufacturer builds a “POS” doesn’t mean the entire OS platform is bad. Just because you don’t care for the Blackjack (I don’t either) doesn’t mean the entire platform is bad. Just because I bought a bad DVD player from manufacturer XYZ doesn’t mean DVD is bad.

I know the original thread started as a Blackjack vs. Blackberry. The question should have been “Why do corporations use Blackberry vs. Windows Mobile?”. Given the choice of a Blackjack or a Blackberry I’d pick the Blackberry. Given the choice of a “good” WM device I’d pick WM. For me, WM is more functional and certainly just as reliable for a cheaper cost. For others BB may have everything they need.

We can keep posting antidotal stories about individual problems but as an administrator of both services I can say we get fewer problem calls per device on Windows Mobile. Beyond that it’s just personal preference.

Posted by: veblen

My 40,000-person company uses Treos and PPCs in addition to legacy BlackBerry devices. Why not the BlackJack/Q Smartphone devices? Because the Treo set the expectation that "moving from a BlackBerry to a Windows Mobile device" would give the user a touchscreen. When we tested Smartphones, they had the highest return rate because people expected them to have a touchscreen. That, and the battery life was not good. The IT department wants to support only the devices that will have the fewest questions asked.

Personally, I'd take the BJ or the Q over the bulkier device any day.