vB Easy Archive - Do you REALLY think the iPhone is going to be unlocked?

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Do you REALLY think the iPhone is going to be unlocked?
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Posted by: a_reyes_AI

Hi guys,

Let’s forget about the date. Do you really think the iPhone is going to be unlocked? I just want to know your opinions based in all the amazing information that is running in this forum.

Please respond to this question basing your answer with real facts.

Thanks

Posted by: MegaMan X

http://howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1211340

Posted by: XanderMac

Well, looking at engadgetmobile today it may have already been unlocked, apparently the video shows a call with a non at&t sim.

Posted by: toomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_reyes_AI

Let’s forget about the date. Do you really think the iPhone is going to be unlocked? I just want to know your opinions based in all the amazing information that is running in this forum.

Yep, I think it's going to get unlocked.

And then Apple is going to release iPhone Firmware v1.01 through iTunes, with a few bugfixes (Safari crashes) and maybe a small additional feature or two (nothing big like MMS or iChat). And then magically, when you apply the update, the phone will be re-locked to AT&T.

And so the process will start over again. Hackers will again pound away at the device, trying to find ways around the latest that Apple has done. And they might find another workaround...

Until Apple releases iPhone Firmware v1.02 ... and locked again! Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Honsetly, I expect it will be a never-ending cat-and-mouse game, much like the underground satellite TV cracking networks. If you've ever followed what they have to go through to crack those cards, it's really an amazing level of effort, only to be thwarted a few months later when the satellite networks drop "countermeasures" back down on the network - and toast a bunch of cracked cards. Anyone remember the "Black Sunday" where they toasted tens of (hundreds of?) thousands of cards, 5 minutes into the Superbowl one year?

Honestly, I've got too much keeping me busy in my life to want to play that game. For some that absolutely, positively insist on having the iPhone on the network they want and are willing to go through that hassle - they'll probably have their way. But I've got better things to do with my time ...

Posted by: XanderMac

legally Apple won't be allowed to re-lock the phone.

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

legally Apple won't be allowed to re-lock the phone.

Legally Apple can do whatever they want --- including re-locking the iphone. They can even not allow you to recharge your phone (see their recent patent filings).

The end-user only have the right --- NOT TO GET SUED.

Posted by: XanderMac

Well that is completely untrue, you can't be held civily liable for something that you are legally entitled to do. The dmca has a provision specifically for unlocking phones and the circuit court has ruled it legal too, so apple would be in violation if they did relock, or even attempt to relock a phone.

Posted by: toomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

Well that is completely untrue, you can't be held civily liable for something that you are legally entitled to do. The dmca has a provision specifically for unlocking phones and the circuit court has ruled it legal too

You're ok up through here ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

so apple would be in violation if they did relock, or even attempt to relock a phone.

... and now I've lost you. I don't see how you make that connection from Point A to Point B.

I'm actually with Samab on this.

While there's a lot of opinions about what the DMCA act actually allows or doesn't allow ... here's the kicker:

Apple is not legally obligated to provide updates. Ever.

Your applying the update - to firmware v1.01 - will likely come with an End User License Agreement you'll have to accept before it is applied. And in that agreement, you'll be accepting the ability for Apple to apply firmware to your device, which may reset other settings already in place. Hence, your phone gets relocked, unless you prefer to stay at v1.0 forever.

Posted by: 300psi

toomer is right once you agree to the End User License Agreement all bets are off. Especially since you knew when buying the iPhone it is exclusive to the AT&T network.

I don't believe there is an incentive to the other phone manufacturers to attempt to relock their phones. Apple on the other hand would lose a revenue stream if unlocking the phone goes unchallenged.

I like the analogy of the satellite wars toomer alluded to as this is what you may see with the iPhone. Will it be unlocked .. probably. Will it stay unlocked ... probably not.

Posted by: XanderMac

unlocking has nothing to do with firmware updates, I have 4 unlocked phones and have applied carrier updated to all of them and never have they been relocked! A sim & CID unlock is permanent on any phone I have owned, why would the iPhone be any different? And being sued for unlocking is a crock! Plain and simple. Show me one person in the us that got sued and lost for unlocking a phone. Go ahead. Do it, do it.

Posted by: toomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

unlocking has nothing to do with firmware updates

I would disagree with that statement on the basis of these hofo threads:

"RAZR V3: T-Mobile Customized UNLOCKED Flexlash File"
http://www.howardforums.com/showthr...threadid=676085

Notice all the references to locked vs. unlocked monsterpacks.

And this note regarding Treos (where I first ran into the concept of firmware updates "relocking" phones):

http://mytreo.net/treofaq/FirmwareUnlock
"If you have an unlocked Treo then updating the firmware will most likely re-lock it"

Plenty of precedent for the concept of firmware updates re-locking phones, IMO.

Posted by: XanderMac

Here is the DMCA provision with the government opinion attached to the base.

Statement of the Librarian of Congress on the Anticircumvention Rulemaking: Text

Determination of the Librarian of Congress and Text of the Regulation: PDF, Text

The Recommendation of the Register of Copyrights: PDF

The Librarian of Congress, on the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, has announced the classes of works subject to the exemption from the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that control access to copyrighted works. Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works will not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls (17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1)) during the next three years.
1. Audiovisual works included in the educational library of a college or university’s film or media studies department, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of making compilations of portions of those works for educational use in the classroom by media studies or film professors.
2. Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.
3. Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete. A dongle shall be considered obsolete if it is no longer manufactured or if a replacement or repair is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.
4. Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling either of the book’s read-aloud function or of screen readers that render the text into a specialized format.
5. Computer programs in the form of firmware that enable wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telephone communication network, when circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network.
6. Sound recordings, and audiovisual works associated with those sound recordings, distributed in compact disc format and protected by technological protection measures that control access to lawfully purchased works and create or exploit security flaws or vulnerabilities that compromise the security of personal computers, when circumvention is accomplished solely for the purpose of good faith testing, investigating, or correcting such security flaws or vulnerabilities.
These exemptions went into effect upon publication in the Federal Register on November 27, 2006, and will remain in effect through October 27, 2009.
The provision likely to be of most interest to consumers is the one allowing cell phones to be unlocked and used on other networks. The Copyright Office allowed this exception because the software that prohibits users from accessing their phone's firmware has little to do with copyright and much to do with a business model. "The underlying activity sought to be performed by the owner of the handset is to allow the handset to do what it was manufactured to do—lawfully connect to any carrier," writes the government in explanation. "This is a noninfringing activity by the user... The purpose of the software lock appears to be limited to restricting the owner’s use of the mobile handset to support a business model, rather than to protect access to a copyrighted work itself."

I used my unlocked, cingular branded Treo-650 on t-mobile's network. I applied a cingular update and the phone was not re-locked. See above "most likely". I think that carriers are a little more careful about running foul of the law than we give them credit for. Granted, Apple can try to re-lock an unlocked phone, but with the attention the iPhone is already getting in Congress they would be opening themselves up to a lot of regulation, we have to remember that Apple is getting a cut of the service plan which in turn could make them as liable as the service provider in regulators eyes. Consumer protections are not a trivial matter. With the November decision carriers will have to give serious consideration to relocking purely to support a business model. With all the wm6 updates being released since this provision I can't find a single one that relocks the phone including the leaked AT&T treo beta.

Posted by: Dylan

The DMCA provision states a user can unlock their phone but I don't see how it applies to the carrier relocking the phone.

Posted by: 300psi

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

The Copyright Office allowed this exception because the software that prohibits users from accessing their phone's firmware has little to do with copyright and much to do with a business model. "The underlying activity sought to be performed by the owner of the handset is to allow the handset to do what it was manufactured to do—lawfully connect to any carrier," writes the government in explanation. "This is a noninfringing activity by the user... The purpose of the software lock appears to be limited to restricting the owner’s use of the mobile handset to support a business model, rather than to protect access to a copyrighted work itself."

Would Apple losing a revenue stream not be considered "infringing activity" ?

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

Granted, Apple can try to re-lock an unlocked phone, but with the attention the iPhone is already getting in Congress they would be opening themselves up to a lot of regulation, we have to remember that Apple is getting a cut of the service plan which in turn could make them as liable as the service provider in regulators eyes. Consumer protections are not a trivial matter. With the November decision carriers will have to give serious consideration to relocking purely to support a business model. With all the wm6 updates being released since this provision I can't find a single one that relocks the phone including the leaked AT&T treo beta.

You just agree with me then --- Apple can relock the iphone with future firmware upgrades --- legally.

The only thing that changed with the November Copyright Office ruling is that the carriers (specifically Tracfone) can't sue people on DMCA because of their business model. Nothing said that they can't continue to relock your previously lock phone because of business model.

Posted by: Dylan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300psi

Would Apple losing a revenue stream not be considered "infringing activity" ?

It would not. This refers to copyright infringement.

Posted by: XanderMac

no, I do not agree with you as the legality of relocking a phone has not been tested in the courts since the provision has been put in place, but I would surmise by the lack of carrier updates since November that do lock the phone that the carriers do not want to chance it. Not one carrier update this year, that i can find or have tested, relocks the phone, including at&t updates.

Would apple losing revenue be an infringing activity? No it would not. As a consumer i am not legally responsible for guaranteeing apples revenue stream. My responsibility is to live out my contract with at&t or buy out of it as specified in their contract, my obligation to apple ended when i left the apple store, if i end up with an unlocked phone i can legally terminate at&t and move to another gsm carrier. I have my t-mobile service still for that very eventuality.

Posted by: XanderMac

I just think Apple have to walk a very fine line here. Any attempt to relock the phone to a specific carrier would be viewed as supporting a business model, in this case a cellular provider business model which "could" open Apple up to the same regulatory standards as the provider themselves. The estimated $5-$11 that apple get from AT&T wouldn't even come close to covering the bureaucratic costs related to regulation/reporting etc. and would be a serious loss leader for Apple. Unlocking is legal, if Apple choose to test this I think they have a lot more to lose than they have to gain. It's a new market with a new player, a market that has never seen a manufacturer profit from the users service contract, only time will tell how it plays out but I guarantee you this, Apple will do whatever it can to avoid regulation.

Posted by: Kar98

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_reyes_AI

Hi guys,

Let’s forget about the date. Do you really think the iPhone is going to be unlocked?

Quote:

Please respond to this question basing your answer with real facts.

Well, you're no fun.

Posted by: peestandingup

^^That doesnt prove jack squat. Its either roaming onto T-mobile's network or photoshopped.

Anyways, pics just dont cut it for something like this. We gotta see a video of a different carriers SIM going into the phone & powered on with NO CAMERA CUTS.

Posted by: Roy

dont forget it could be merely a carrier image

Posted by: Roy

ps: it is being unlocked. outgoing calls and SMS + data already works on other networks (its clumsy though, and no incoming calls). that isnt the "half-way" though as the real lock will likely use a different solution all the way.

anyways, if apple relocks it, it will certainly be quicker to unlock in any firmware, because the firmware is basically fully known. what is causing problems is merely the baseband firmware, which is the radio hardware. if you want, read on it, but please dont speculate about how difficult an eventual firmware-relock would be if you are not educated on the subject...

Posted by: 300psi

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

but I guarantee you this, Apple will do whatever it can to avoid regulation.

Kinda of going out on a limb here aren't you ? Is there anyone who wants government regulation ?

Posted by: Roy

Wait a secong, is it just me or is the guy on post #19 not even holding an iphone??? look how fat the thing looks in his hands, plus the thickness of the bezel around the screen, plus the fonts, plus the display quality, plus the speaker icon on the top corner, plus the display size/width/height ratio... i think it is just one of the WM devices running iphone wannabe interface lockscreen....

EDIT: good job though, on skim-reading you almost got me...

Posted by: vick04

I think the iphone will be unlocked pretty soon. Im sure apple will be happy when someone finds a way to do it.(more sales) Apple will just look at the unlock method and work on fixing it for iphone 2. Sooner or later apple when find a way that cant be unlocked or is very hard like the sidekick 2/3.

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

I just think Apple have to walk a very fine line here. Any attempt to relock the phone to a specific carrier would be viewed as supporting a business model, in this case a cellular provider business model which "could" open Apple up to the same regulatory standards as the provider themselves. The estimated $5-$11 that apple get from AT&T wouldn't even come close to covering the bureaucratic costs related to regulation/reporting etc. and would be a serious loss leader for Apple. Unlocking is legal, if Apple choose to test this I think they have a lot more to lose than they have to gain. It's a new market with a new player, a market that has never seen a manufacturer profit from the users service contract, only time will tell how it plays out but I guarantee you this, Apple will do whatever it can to avoid regulation.

There is no fine line --- this Republican administration has been bending backward to please the carriers (such as the allowance of the SBC/BellSouth/Cingular merger --- without any meaningful restrictions).

Personal unlocking is legal, but everything else is not. It is illegal to provide unlocking service, unlocking software,....

Much of the "regulatory standards" are a barrier of entry for companies like Vonage (with E911 and other stuff) --- they don't mean anything to Apple.

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by XanderMac

no, I do not agree with you as the legality of relocking a phone has not been tested in the courts since the provision has been put in place, but I would surmise by the lack of carrier updates since November that do lock the phone that the carriers do not want to chance it. Not one carrier update this year, that i can find or have tested, relocks the phone, including at&t updates.

Would apple losing revenue be an infringing activity? No it would not. As a consumer i am not legally responsible for guaranteeing apples revenue stream. My responsibility is to live out my contract with at&t or buy out of it as specified in their contract, my obligation to apple ended when i left the apple store, if i end up with an unlocked phone i can legally terminate at&t and move to another gsm carrier. I have my t-mobile service still for that very eventuality.

Other companies don't relock phones --- because there is no esay way for the other phone manufacturers to force you to download the new firmware via OTA or via their website. We have seen satellite dish companies killing counterfeit cards on mass.

Do Apple care that you already locked yourself into a 2 year contract? Not really. But they would care that they are still negotiating with the European carriers --- and they would simply relock your American iphone just to show those European carriers that they can do it technically.

Posted by: ts

if it is relocked by a firmware upgrade then it is legal - i doubt they will force you to upgrade.

Posted by: Kar98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy

Wait a secong, is it just me or is the guy on post #19 not even holding an iphone??? look how fat the thing looks in his hands, plus the thickness of the bezel around the screen, plus the fonts, plus the display quality, plus the speaker icon on the top corner, plus the display size/width/height ratio... i think it is just one of the WM devices running iphone wannabe interface lockscreen....

EDIT: good job though, on skim-reading you almost got me...

Hehehe, I just have very small hands.

Also, if you have a look at my avatar, the device I list in my profile, and the text under the picture, you'll figure it out

See here .

The display quality is actually much better than in the picture, I just didn't bother to set up a decent shot. Btw, if there was a more "generic" looking app for that purpose, I would have gone for that too.

Posted by: DragonFlyGirl

Will the iPhone be SIM (aka subsidy) unlocked? Yes, at some point and time. Far too many people are working on it already, and it will be found, sooner rather than later. Just like TestPoint on Moto phones, even if the carrier won't give out the subsidy unlock code, there's a way to unlock the phone to use on any carrier. The bottom line is: anything that can be locked, can be unlocked. There is no "permanent lock", period.

Now, on to the debate about Apple "re-locking" phones via an update: I highly doubt it. The subsidy unlock code is stored in low-level programming; every GSM phone to date has not had the subsidy lock affected by a firmware update, since the code is deeply buried. in the PDS and not touched after it leaves the factory. Even if Apple decides to do so (and again, I highly doubt it), it will be unlocked again as soon as Apple releases the "update".

It's just a question of time. The iPhone has been out for, what, a month? My bet is by the 6-month mark, maybe 9 months, it'll be figured out, either by a pay-service or some sort of free instructions here on HoFo or another popular board. It's already been figured out how to activate a non-iPhone SIM, and it's been speculated that a former AT&T Wireless (aka Cingular Blue) SIM could be activated (though I don't know anyone who has tried this yet, and I'm not willing to spend $600 to try), but given that, other GSM carrier SIMs aren't far off.

Posted by: toomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonFlyGirl

I wouldn't say that's true at all. Actually, I already did once in this thread - http://www.howardforums.com/showpos...27&postcount=11

I haven't had a Treo in several years, but when I did, I do remember "firmware upgrades" re-locking phones on people (hence the link reference in my previous post) so I'd say it's very possible that the phone can be re-locked with firmware, as we've seen it before.