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iPhone to launch in GB

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Posted by: UncleDannie

I know this is old news, but I read a newsblog today that put a who new slant on the iPhone phenomenon in Europe that may affect us in the USA. Rather than bore you to death with 'quote's', I'm putting the URL to the blog and everyone can read it. All in all, looks like the unlocking of iPhones will accelerate.

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9781282-7.html

What I really wanted was peoples interpretation of the writers column.


Posted by: taar44

Much like AT&T probably did, i am sure O2 has some sort of clause in their contract which states that Apple will make a reasonable effort to close holes that allow phones to be unlocked. It will always be a cat and mouse game between hackers and Apple.


Posted by: Dogmann

Hi all,

As i have mentioned before here in the UK and the European Union it is illegal to keep a device locked if a customer request and pays for the unlock code they have to sell it to you for a reasonable charge usually around £20. So my question is their a code that Apple or 02 will have to enable you to unlock the device for any Sim? and if not how will they unlock the device for you? any one have any ideas on this? As it really isn't a question of if they want to or not they have to otherwise they will get sued by the person who has purchased the iPhone and fined by the EU.

Marc


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Unlocking is perfectly legal in the UK; O2 would of course be fully aware of that. The article seems to suggest that O2 don't know that and that they somehow think that they will be able to keep every iPhone locked.


Posted by: Dogmann

@scotsboyuk

I'm pretty sure that i am not the only one that has thought or knows this so come 9th November i think both the Apple Store and 02 may be in for a shock. As i will buy one form either or both places and request an unlock code and as i have purchased the device they have to sell it to me at a reasonable cost.

Could prove to be quite interesting and very expensive for both companies as they really don't have a choice in the matter. I can't believe they don't appear to have thought this one through properly and wonder how many people may do the same thing to them.

Marc


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
Hi all,

As i have mentioned before here in the UK and the European Union it is illegal to keep a device locked if a customer request and pays for the unlock code they have to sell it to you for a reasonable charge usually around £20


This is absolutely correct.

The other interesting aspect of course involves all the recent talk of Apple possibly "bricking" people's 'phones that have been "illegally" unlocked in the US.

Imagine the scenario if someone were to import an unlocked iPhone to the UK and then it was subsequently "bricked" by an Apple firmware update.

Well a UK owner would have a case against Apple on two fronts.

Firstly Apple offer worldwide support on all their products and secondly, as this UK owner lives in a country where it is illegal for companies to offer 'phones for sale without offering an unlock service for a nominal fee, I suspect Apple would be liable.

For this reason, if I were not waiting for a 16GB, 3G iPhone and I was buying now, I'd buy one in the US cheaper, unlock it and be able to avoid signing up for a $1260 / £630 18 month contract.

Yes I'd lose Visual Voicemail, but I could live with that.


Posted by: Dogmann

@KeanosMagicHat

Actually there is no point in buying a US version other than the fact it is already released. My point is as you purchase the iPhone outright you can sign up for a contract and activate your iPhone then within 14 days can cancel your contract. Insert a Pay as You Go Sim to continue using it and request the unlock code which they have to sell you.

This way you have a fully activated and working iPohne that will also be unlocked with no need to resort to any other process.

It's going to be interesting to see how exactly this plays out as i have asked this question on UK forums and no one is really sure. I am pretty sure what i am saying will work which will mean an unlocked fully activated iPhone for £269.99 plus maybe another £20 for unlocking.

Marc


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
@KeanosMagicHat

Actually there is no point in buying a US version other than the fact it is already released. My point is as you purchase the iPhone outright you can sign up for a contract and activate your iPhone then within 14 days can cancel your contract. Insert a Pay as You Go Sim to continue using it and request the unlock code which they have to sell you.

This way you have a fully activated and working iPohne that will also be unlocked with no need to resort to any other process.

It's going to be interesting to see how exactly this plays out as i have asked this question on UK forums and no one is really sure. I am pretty sure what i am saying will work which will mean an unlocked fully activated iPhone for £269.99 plus maybe another £20 for unlocking.

Marc


Obviously if you were travelling to the US for other business then buying one whilst there would still work out cheaper.

Good point you make though. Only potential flaw I see is that the last unlock code I requested took 30 days. That would be longer than the 14 day cancellation period.

Could that cause complications?


Posted by: natt108

Very interesting article!

Will UK customers be able to purchase their iphone outright just like US? or will they required to sign a contract at the time of purchase?

It would be a smart thing for O2 to make people sign/renew their contract before walking out of the store with their new iphone.

What IF EU iphone came out as unlocked to all network but T-Mobile USA and AT&T?


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

Quote:
Originally Posted by natt108
Will UK customers be able to purchase their iphone outright just like US? or will they required to sign a contract at the time of purchase?

It would be a smart thing for O2 to make people sign/renew their contract before walking out of the store with their new iphone.


At the moment the plan is that all iPhones will be sold with an 18 month contract in the UK (unlike the US).

Hence our speculation above, myself and Dogmann, that people may try to find a way around this requirement.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

I suspect that there is a clause in the contract somewhere that stipulates that one must keep the contract in order to keep the handset. One would still be free to unlock the handset of course and use another SIM, but I would be surprised if O2 didn't require the contract to be kept to keep the handset.

I also imagine that the iPhone won't be available SIM free from O2, Apple or the Carphonewarehouse.


Posted by: Dogmann

@scotsboyuk


But actually that is where the whole issue is, the iPhone is not a subsidised device you do buy it outright at point of purchase. This IMO is where 02 have a major problem as once you have bought it you own your iPhone not 02 CPW or even Apple. Which makes them having locked it dubious at the least they have to sell you the unlock code as required by EU law.

I also don't see how they can make you take it back for a refund it is not their property but yours. In the same way as what happens if you buy an iPhone and then don't pass a credit check? Apple in the US charge a restocking fee will it be the same in the UK and if so how can they get away with forcing you to lose money?


I really do think in just following the US sales model 02 have not really fully thought all of the implications of what they are doing through properly. No one has really had or given me a definitive answer and so far i am just throwing open to discussion how i perceive the situation and the possible outcome.

All of the above may be necessary as soon a version 1.11 is realeased in the US and people upgrade and confirm all the available hacks and customisations still work or not.

Re it taking longer for the unlock code to arrive than 14 days i don't see that as a problem if you get a PAYG Sim as you have failed and don't pass the credit check they still have to sell you an unlock code on this they really don't have a choice. It's not a subsidized handset that makes up part of your contact especially if bought from an Apple store if they try and keep it locked you can take legal action against them and I'm sure the EU legal department would also. At this point all of my thoughts are just conjecture but it will be very interesting to see exactly how this one plays out. As lets face it their minimum contract deal is not exactly great value and I'm sure as in the US most don't want a 18 month contract @£35 per month with only EDGE data that says unlimited but will be subject to a fair use age policy same as the free WiFi and certain Hot Spots is. So far i have been unable to find anywhere that defines what the fair use age policy is.

Marc


Posted by: Dogmann

Hi all,

OK i have a little update as i have just spoken to 02, first bit of news is that if you fail the credit check it will be possible to get a special 02 PAYG Sim to work in the iPhone which means you can use all of it's functionality over WiFi saving you the large contract costs. I also then spoke to another department re getting an unlock code for the iPhone and was told it would not be possible to buy an unlock code for the iPhone and was told it won't be available either.

Now as far as i am concerned this is illegal as EU law says that a Network has to sell you an unlock code they really don't have a choice. So if i buy an iPhone when released here purposely fail the credit check and request a special iPhone PAYG Sim just what are 02 going to do when the refuse to sell me an unlock code? as they will clearly be in breach of my rights and EU law.

Marc


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
@scotsboyuk

But actually that is where the whole issue is, the iPhone is not a subsidised device you do buy it outright at point of purchase. This IMO is where 02 have a major problem as once you have bought it you own your iPhone not 02 CPW or even Apple. Which makes them having locked it dubious at the least they have to sell you the unlock code as required by EU law.


Does one have to give back a subsidised handset if one cancels the contract because the handset hasn't been paid for or because the contract says that it must be returned if the contract is cancelled before its term expires? In other words is non-subsidisation a guarantee of being able to keep a handset if one cancels the contract?

Does anyone know the details of this matter? I would be interested in finding out for definite.

Quote:
I also don't see how they can make you take it back for a refund it is not their property but yours. In the same way as what happens if you buy an iPhone and then don't pass a credit check? Apple in the US charge a restocking fee will it be the same in the UK and if so how can they get away with forcing you to lose money?


I'm not sure, you could be correct, but I wonder if they are able to include a clause in he contract that says the handset isn't your property until the contract has ended. As I said above, it would be useful if someone could say for definite.

Quote:
I really do think in just following the US sales model 02 have not really fully thought all of the implications of what they are doing through properly. No one has really had or given me a definitive answer and so far i am just throwing open to discussion how i perceive the situation and the possible outcome.


I don't think they've fully thought out the implications of the deal either. For one thing they have to now commit themselves to building a national EDGE network that probably won't see much use beyond the iPhone. Then there is the point to be made that those who don't have EDGE at the moment may simply not bother much with the handset's data features i.e. web browsing. I imagine the browser is very good and all the rest of it, but at GPRS speeds it isn't exactly a sublime experience. The only other alternative would be to find a hotspot, but then they aren't exactly ubiquitous in the first place, not to mention the fact that the free Wi-Fi access is with a certain brand, which will further reduce availability.


Posted by: Dogmann

@scotsboyuk

Definitely come 9th November if i walk into a Apple Store and buy an iPhone for £269 it is mine i own it. I then don't even have to activate it i can ask 02 for a PAYG iPhone Sim and then only activate it once that Sim arrives. Which means my iPhone will be fully functional and if i just use the Web and E-Mail over WiFi will incur no other costs other than the calls i make.

The only interesting thing IMO is what is going to happen when i say i have other Sim cards that still have time to run on their contracts and therefore need to buy the unlock code. As they are saying they will not sell me one and EU law says they have to.

Marc


Posted by: scotsboyuk

@Dogman

But would it be yours? There could be a legal clause that states that the handset isn't officially your property until the contract has expired; the contract may have to be bought and fulfilled as a condition of ownership. I would double check to make sure.


Posted by: Dogmann

@scotsboyuk

As far as i am concerned the answer is this you buy your iPhone outright there is no contract required at point of sale, only once you activate it do you enter a contract. The fact you can get a special PAYG iPhone Sim again means there is no contract involved even on activation of the iPhone.


Again as far as i am concerned as i have bought and paid for my iPhone and it is mine and does not form part of an airtime contract 02 have to sell me the unlock code they have no legal right to refuse. The fact they are saying they will not sell me an unlock code and they will not be available is illegal. The guy i spoke to said 02 have a great team of Lawyers and is sure they don't have to sell me an unlock code. I of course disagree with this idea that just because this is what 02 are saying that it how it is. As far as i am concerned the Law applies to all 02 are not going to be above it and will indeed have to sell me or unlock my iPhone otherwise not only will i take legal action but am sure the UK and EU authorities that implemented this law will also take action or possibly even on my behalf.

I really do believe that 02 in just copying the US sales model have not thought this through properly. Otherwise all the iPhones sold by the Apple store and not connected to AT&T would of had to be returned but as people have bought and paid for their iPhones they can't force anyone to do anything with them they don't want to. It must be the same in the UK other than the fact the law states they have to sell the unlock code to a non subsidised phone where they don't face a financial loss. If when bought at point of sale it was with a contract this would be a different scenario and 02 could claim they are subsidised and not unlock them till they had recouped there costs either at the end or near the end of he contract. This is what they should of done to protect them selves from the scenario i have given, but they haven't so IMO are vulnerable.

Marc


Posted by: scotsboyuk

@Dogman

This site says that a handset remains the property of the network until the contract is fulfilled whether the handset is free or not. I'm not too sure about this in situations where the full price of the handset has been paid, I would have thought it would be the customer's property at that point.

From the Ofcom website the following statement concerning unlocking:

Quote:
Whether you are a post-paid (contract) or pre-paid user, you can keep your current mobile phone by requesting that the SIM lock on your mobile to be removed. Usually, mobile service providers require a minimum contract or service period to expire before they unlock your phone. Most service providers charge a fee for this service.


The Ofcom site goes on to say:

Quote:
Think about the following:

* What's the length of my contract and when does it expire?
* Can I unlock my SIM. If so, when?
* Is there a charge for unlocking?


The second point would seem to indicate that SIM unlocking is not a right that a network must fulfil.

As far as I can tell unlocking itself is not illegal in the UK so if you were to unlock the handset yourself that should be fine, assuming it isn't prohibited by a clause in the contract.

I'm not sure what the EU law on unlocking says, or if there even is one. If an EU law makes unlocking a right rather than just making it legal then one could conceivably counter-challenge any challenge to unlocking an iPhone in the UK that Apple or O2 might bring.


Posted by: Dogmann

@scotsboyuk

But you are not buying your iPhone from 02 you can buy it from Apple and it does not form part of your contract as until you activate it you don't have one. If you activate it with a PAYG special iPhone Sim you only have a contract for them to supply services as long as you have credit on your Sim the phone does not form part of the contract.

I have now found a phone number for OFCOM and will be calling them on Monday to see what they have to say as besides anything else their web site is seriously out of date. Also in some European countries it is totally illegal to sell any phone locked i think Holland is one of them.

From reading about the fact that Apple have changed of lot of the base band in the Touch and that the teams that broke the iPhone for unlocking and customisations are having no luck. I think it is very likely that this newer firmware 1.1 may well put an end to unlocking and hacking the iPhone.

Which IMO means if you really want an iPhone and to be able to unlock and customise it now may be the time to get one and just never update to newer firmware until it has been confirmed to still be possible.

None of this however as far as ii am concerned still gives 02 the right to have all iPhones sold locked to their Network and refuse to unlock them as i still feel this is illegal.

Marc


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
@scotsboyuk

But you are not buying your iPhone from 02 you can buy it from Apple and it does not form part of your contract as until you activate it you don't have one. If you activate it with a PAYG special iPhone Sim you only have a contract for them to supply services as long as you have credit on your Sim the phone does not form part of the contract.


If that is the case then I would tend to agree with you.

Quote:
I have now found a phone number for OFCOM and will be calling them on Monday to see what they have to say as besides anything else their web site is seriously out of date. Also in some European countries it is totally illegal to sell any phone locked i think Holland is one of them.


I'm not sure about the Netherlands, but I believe it is illegal to sell SIM locked handsets in some European countries. However, I believe those are national laws rather than EU laws so they wouldn't apply in the UK. I would be intereste din finding out if there is an EU law on this though.

Quote:
None of this however as far as ii am concerned still gives 02 the right to have all iPhones sold locked to their Network and refuse to unlock them as i still feel this is illegal.

Marc


Whilst I agree with your sentiment, what we feel to be correct doesn't meam it is the law of the land. I am interested in finding out whether a network must provide the unlock code for a handset, that should settle the matter.


Posted by: Dogmann

@scotsboyuk

I agree if this was merely my opinion but i had a long conversation with the guy from OFCOM and explained it all to him and he agrees 02 or Apple will have to sell the unlock code as it is not legal, they have to allow me to use a Sim of my choice in my device. OFCOM just can't act until such time as either 02 or Apple refuse to sell an unlock code.

Marc


Posted by: scotsboyuk

That would seem to settle the matter then. It should be interesting to see what happens if and when someone wants an unlock code.


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
... i had a long conversation with the guy from OFCOM and explained it all to him and he agrees 02 or Apple will have to sell the unlock code as it is not legal, they have to allow me to use a Sim of my choice in my device. OFCOM just can't act until such time as either 02 or Apple refuse to sell an unlock code.

Marc


Haven't been on this thread for a few days but thank you Marc for your efforts to investigate this issue.

Seems OFCOM agree with our stance which is encouraging. I take it you kept the contact name of the person you spoke to?

Further information from the official Apple UK press release would also back up the points you made earlier;

"iPhone is scheduled to go on sale on November 9th and will be sold exclusively in the UK through Apple’s retail and online stores, O2 and The Carphone Warehouse’s retail and online stores"

So you can definitely buy it at Apple stores as an unactivated handset. This should make it your property as far as I am concerned as you don't have to sign anything (I assume) that commits you to activating it.

"iPhone users in the UK will be able to activate their new iPhones using Apple’s popular iTunes software running on a PC or Mac computer in the comfort and privacy of their own home or office, without having to wait in a store while their phone is activated. Activating iPhone takes only minutes as iTunes guides the user through simple steps to choose their tariff, undertake a credit check and activate their iPhone."

As the credit check is only performed during activation I believe, in law, that is a key part in establishing the contract so prior to activation, having walked out of the store with an iPhone I don't see how you are obligated to setup a contract with O2.

For this reason the PAYG Sim idea, now that you have confirmed this is available should work and it sounds as if OFCOM would back new owners to contest their right to an unlock code.

In fact they go further in suggesting that you should be able to demand an unlock code direct from Apple if you bought the iPhone from their store. If successful, this would mean you'd never have to use O2 at all PAYG or otherwise.

Interesting times ahead.


___

EDIT - The contract sign up during activation is confirmed on the O2 website so it seems you can indeed walk out of the store without signing up to O2 and with an iPhone that you own.

"You sign up for your Pay Monthly tariff and contract as part of the activation process so just make sure that you have this information to hand when you are ready to activate your iPhone."

http://www.o2.co.uk/iPhone-GettingReady.html

Click the tab marked, 'Eligibility'


Posted by: Dogmann

@KeanosMagicHat

You see that is exactly my point you are being forced to activate it with only one Network on a device that you have bought and paid for. Even though Apple and 02 have an an exclusivity deal, that is is between them. As a consumer that has bought a piece of equipment that is a phone i can not be forced to only be able to activate it with one Network that is a restrictive practice and due to the EU law that effects the UK illegal as far as i am concerned.

I may be totally wrong but to be honest i doubt it as i am sure OFCOM would of told me so if that was the case, not long to wait and then we will see. But if i am right 02 and Apple are going to be seriously not happy IMO. They may indeed end up changing their current sales model to get round this but as it is i do believe they have left them selves very vulnerable due to the belief that just because this is what they want to do that's it.

Marc


Posted by: scotsboyuk

I was speaking with an area manager for the Carphonewarehouse today and I was asking him about the situation with unlocking the iPhone. He said that the networks don't have to unlock a handset. Is there an Ofcom ruling on this, something definitive in writing?


Posted by: Dogmann

@scotsboyuk

Well sorry but he is wrong as proved by many people that buy a phone on E-Bay or privately and then buy a PAYG Sim card and just put enough credit for the unlocking fee and get it unlocked. It never used to be that easy and you can bet if the Networks didn't have to do this they wouldn't as obviously it is not in their interest to allow you use another Networks service and not get any revenue from you.

As to actually trying to find the actual Law or in fact anything relating to it i have had no success, which is why i phoned OFCOM to try and get clarification which i believe i now have as they did confirm on an unsubsidized device they have to sell you a unlock code. Contract and subsidised handsets are subject to different terms and conditions and there are many variables that effect this.

What the Networks don't have to do is sell you an unlock code until the end of the contract on a subsidised phone with a contract which is quite a different thing altogether. It is not an OFCOM ruling it is EU law that is applicable in the UK, speak to OFCOM yourself their number is 0845 050 1614 and ask if it is legal to sell an unsubsidized phone locked to a Network and then refuse to sell an unlock code. They really are very easy to talk to and very helpful in my experience.

It is only because i had read about this Law that i realised there may be a loophole in what 02 and Apple are trying to force us to do. There are apparently quite a few threads around the Web discussing just this issue, as i always doubted i was the only person to have realised this.

As i have said the fact that 02 will sell you a special iPhone PAYG Sim and yet the iPhone is still the same price to purchase IMHO proves the device is bought outright and not subsidised. I can't think of one other device that is sold for the same price on both PAYG and contract especially not a premium device.

It really is quite amazeing just what some large company's feel they can get away with and just how effective and good some of these consumer protection laws really are for us the consumer.

Especially as it has now emerged that even the cheapest iPhone tariff is really not good value as @£35pm gives you just 200mins and 200 texts and the so called unlimited Data that 02 offers is quoted as approximately 1,400 pages which equates to roughly just 200MB per month. Which IMO considering it has push E-Mail and lots of other automatically updating apps plus of course the great SAFARI full browser is woefully inadequate and no where close to what i would call unlimited with a fair usage policy. For example T-Mobile offers on their lowest Data tariff for just £7.50pm up to 1GB per month. Obviously one of the reasons the 02 tariff is so expensive IMO is the fact they have to pay a % of revenue to Apple.

There is one other thing that i find very strange is that on buying your iPhone it requires a special Sim Card yet on the unlocked iPhones any Sim will work just what is happening here i really don't know or understand.

Marc


Posted by: ButOne

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
I don't think they've fully thought out the implications of the deal either. For one thing they have to now commit themselves to building a national EDGE network that probably won't see much use beyond the iPhone.

I have tried to make this point before, too. They will never build the network past London and it will never be an effective network. Apple has already said that a 3G version of the iPhone will be released next year...what is the point of investing money in an inferior technology like EDGE for ONE PHONE, when they already have a full 3G network?

If I were a Brit, I wouldn't bother buying the phone unless I wasn't planning to use any data. Next year, when the 3G version is available, it might make more sense.


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

Quote:
Originally Posted by ButOne
If I were a Brit, I wouldn't bother buying the phone unless I wasn't planning to use any data. Next year, when the 3G version is available, it might make more sense.


I'm normally an early adopter with gadgets but I feel the same way.

I also think Apple have made a mistake with the iPod Touch.

Now I want to wait until I have an iPhone with 3G, 16GB, Bluetooth file transfer and Voice Dialing.

Oh and hopefully a user removable battery .... although I'm not holding my breath on that one.

As an aside, if there are many others who'd normally snap up a gadget like the iPhone, but who feel the same way as we do, it'll be an interesting launch in the UK.


Posted by: samab

The UK carriers basically don't have to give you any unlocking code --- if they provide you with enough notice on the cell phone box.

Remember Hutchison 3 UK superglued the SIM cards into the phone. And the kicker is that it's a prepaid cell phone as well (which you bought free and clear). Perfectly legal under UK laws.

http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=2096

UK carriers provide unlocking codes for you because the unlocking codes are widely available for older cell phones with older security features. They do it so that they can get a few dollars back. But most people mis-understand it as a legal requirement that they have to provide you with anything.


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
The UK carriers basically don't have to give you any unlocking code --- if they provide you with enough notice on the cell phone box.

Remember Hutchison 3 UK superglued the SIM cards into the phone. And the kicker is that it's a prepaid cell phone as well (which you bought free and clear). Perfectly legal under UK laws.

http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=2096

UK carriers provide unlocking codes for you because the unlocking codes are widely available for older cell phones with older security features. They do it so that they can get a few dollars back. But most people mis-understand it as a legal requirement that they have to provide you with anything.


samab - UK carriers have to give out unlocking codes by law.

For contract 'phones it varies as to when each company will issue them and, no matter when this time period is, you still have to pay the balance of your contract.

What makes the iPhone unique in the UK marketplace (as discussed in the posts above) is that you pay for the device outright when you walk out of the store - especially if bought directly from Apple.

The sign up for the O2 contract only happens during activation of the 'phone so at the point of purchase you have not actually signed anything obligating you to O2's network.

For this reason, UK buyers will have a very strong case for getting an immediate unlock code and requesting an O2 iPhone PAYG Sim to tide them over whilst the code is issued.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeanosMagicHat
samab - UK carriers have to give out unlocking codes by law.


The old Oftel basically threw out all previous unlocking guidelines in 2002 --- in favour of "improved customer awareness". Ofcom has not revised those guidelines since.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/arch...002/sim1102.htm

Most people read the simplified faq of this policy --- and got a wrong impression of the policy. Here is the simplified faq.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/arch...aqs/mobfaq3.htm

"Improved customer awareness" is a vaguely legal term which means that if the carrier put a big notice on the box (like how Hutchison 3 UK putting a big notice saying that this phone is permanently locked to 3 UK) --- it is all legal.


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

@samab - well come November 9th we'll have our answer as someone is bound to challenge it.

I maintain my belief that they'll have a good chance.


Posted by: samab

This is whar Ofcom said about 3 UK glueing the SIM card.

Quote:

"Ofcom's director of communications, Matt Peacock, told Mobile that from a regulatory perspective the move was a physical extension of the handset or Sim-locking issue: 'In November 2002 Oftel decided that improved consumer awareness of Sim locking is the best way to address the issue.' The regulator defines Sim-locking as: 'the practice where handsets are locked so they can only be used with the original provider of the service.' This view effectively opened the way for operators to glue Sims into handsets, as long as customers are made aware of what they are being sold."

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/content/1620.asp?


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab


That was in 2002 since then the EU passed a Law that made it illegal for a Network to lock and refuse to sell you an unlock code on an unsubsidised phone. Even 3 now sell their users unlock codes although as they don't sell unsubsidized phones they charge higher fee dependant on how far into your contract you are but they do sell them as they have no choice any longer.


@all


According to another post here on HOFO an iPhone user requested an unlock code from AT&T after 90 days for an iPhone he is using as per contract with AT&T so that when he is in Europe he could use a local Sim. To avoid roaming charges and still have use where AT&T don't have roaming agreements and has been told that AT&T don't have unlock codes it is Apple that has locked them.

I am going to have to wait till the 9th November to read the T&C's very carefully in the Apple Store, but if as i believe you buy your iPhone outright this practice of selling you a locked device and forcing you to use just one Network is illegal in the EU and UK.

Unless in Apples T&C's it clearly states they are selling you a subsidised device on condition you connect it to 02 IMO Apple are going to come a cropper as this is a restrictive practice and in the EU and UK illegal to do.

The clock is ticking and once it is launched we will get our answer one way or another, obviously whilst i understand why Apple want it to be like this just because that is what they want to happen doesn't mean it has to especially if it turns out to be an illegal practice.

Marc


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
That was in 2002 since then the EU passed a Law that made it illegal for a Network to lock and refuse to sell you an unlock code on an unsubsidised phone. Even 3 now sell their users unlock codes although as they don't sell unsubsidized phones they charge higher fee dependant on how far into your contract you are but they do sell them as they have no choice any longer.

I am going to have to wait till the 9th November to read the T&C's very carefully in the Apple Store, but if as i believe you buy your iPhone outright this practice of selling you a locked device and forcing you to use just one Network is illegal in the EU and UK.

Unless in Apples T&C's it clearly states they are selling you a subsidised device on condition you connect it to 02 IMO Apple are going to come a cropper as this is a restrictive practice and in the EU and UK illegal to do.


My feeling is that there is no such law exist in the EU at all.

3 UK glued their SIM card in 2006 --- and nothing happened. No laws were broken in 2006. I haven't seen any new EU law passing this year on this topic. As long as a UK carrier tells you outright in large font that this phone is permanently locked to their own network --- no laws are broken in UK and in EU.

Apple is spreading all the revenue from the iphone over the length of the contract. And that means a subsidized phone from the view of the carrier because they have to continue paying Apple during the length of the contract.

Apple is battling the EU on itunes in a number of countries --- it's not as if they don't know EU laws.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

I don't know where you are getting your information from but you are definitely wrong i know of lots of people who buy a phone from E-Bay or privately then buy a PYAG Sim card top it up with with enough credit to get an unlock code and receive it within 28 days max.

I have also spoken to OFCOM who have confirmed to me it is illegal to sell outright a device that is then locked to a specific Network and refuse to sell you an unlock code. All that needs to be seen is if you actually purchase your iPhone outright and unsubsidized at point of sale as if this is the case Apple will have to sell you unlock code if they want to or not. If they dont they will be forced to by the law and OFCOM and most probably receive a heavy fine as well. Only if the iPhone is not sold outright and is subsidised can they sell it locked but even then at the end of the contract they have to sell you the unlock code. Also in some EU countries it is not legal to sell a locked phone under any circumstances.

I myself in the last year have bought two unlock codes one from T--Mobile when i was only two weeks into a contract and and one from Vodafone on a phone i bought privately. I am pretty sure if the Networks could get away without selling you an unlock code they would as it is not in their interest to. They never used to make it so easy as they now do and i am sure it is only because they have no choice not because they all of a sudden want to be nice.


As i said come 9th November once i see if i own my purchased iPhone outright or not and have seen Apples T&C's and the discussed it further with OFCOM will we know for sure until then everything is just speculation and peoples opinions.

Marc


Posted by: samab

If Ofcom said it in a phone call to you, then it should also show up in their official website.

But it is not in their official website.

There are a lot of fine print in the exemptions. It's not illegal if they tell out before you buy the phone. 3 UK managed to sell a SIM card glued phone with no problem --- as long as they tell you that the phone is permanently locked to their network LAST YEAR.

I like how you frame the possibilities as (1) you already planning on how O2 will manage to sell the unlocking codes and (2) if not 1, then how Ofcom is going to punish O2. But you never entertain the possibility that what Apple and O2 are going to do is completely legal.

I mean Apple may be new to the UK mobile market --- but definitely not O2. So for O2 to sign a multi-year exclusive and not consider simlocking --- that would be unbelieveable.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab


May i suggest before you just respond you actually read what i have posted instead of jumping to conclusions. As i stated only a few posts ago that it appears it is Apple that are locking them not 02 and i have stated very clearly i am waiting till the 9th November to confirm,

a) We buy and own our iPhones outright.

b) I have read the T&C's Apple have at point of purchase

c) Only then will i contact OFCOM to check the legality of the situation

Now where in my recent post's have i mentioned 02? and just for your information even 3 now sell unlock codes, but as they don't sell any Sim Free devices as all their devices have branded firmware for their Network. They charge the most due to their contracts and the fact you got a subsidised phone. Also as far as i am aware 3 stopped the practice of gluing in Sim cards a long time ago now.

I don't know if you work for 02 or just own a lot of their shares but you seem very defensive of their actions for some reason. You also seem to find it very hard to accept that Apple by following the same sales model as in the US may be in breach of UK and EU law. I am not the only person that has raised this issue either there are many such discussions on other web sites as well.

Maybe you would like to talk to OFCOM for confirmation of what i have had confirmed to me there number is 0845 050 1614. But remember the relevant point is "Is it legal to sell a device you own outright on purchase locked to a single Network" as this is what the Law applies to it does not apply to a device that is subsidised when it forms part of your contact.

Or do you really think i am just that bored that i am making this all up? and yes there Web site is seriously out of date which is why i called them for clarification but until the device is released and we know exactly what the T&C's are and if you own your device outright or not there is nothing they can act on yet.

Why do you also find it so hard to believe that Apple just believe they can do as they please and are right because they want to be. Obviously it is in their interest to keep you locked into using 02 as they get a cut of the revenue if they have to unlock the iPhone and allow users to choose which Network they use they will lose this additional revenue which obviously they would rather not do but just because this is what they want doesn't necessarily make it legal.

As a side note in some EU country's they have additional laws that make it illegal for any phone to be locked under any circumstances. Unlike you i don't believe Apple have thought this one through properly and are just happy to say we are Apple and this what we do. Has it escaped your notice that Apple have another problem with the EU over the fact that EU users in various country's pay more for itunes downloads than others.

But really for now until the 9th November when the iPhone is released all we are doing is going round in circles as no on knows for sure one way or the other what the situation is we will all have to just wait and see how this plays out. I am also not claiming i am 100% right as yet just that i do think Apple may of made a mistake that may prove costly for them and they may of left them selves vulnerable is all.

Marc


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
Why do you also find it so hard to believe that Apple just believe they can do as they please and are right because they want to be. Obviously it is in their interest to keep you locked into using 02 as they get a cut of the revenue if they have to unlock the iPhone and allow users to choose which Network they use they will lose this additional revenue which obviously they would rather not do but just because this is what they want doesn't necessarily make it legal.

As a side note in some EU country's they have additional laws that make it illegal for any phone to be locked under any circumstances. Unlike you i don't believe Apple have thought this one through properly and are just happy to say we are Apple and this what we do. Has it escaped your notice that Apple have another problem with the EU over the fact that EU users in various country's pay more for itunes downloads than others.


Because it works both ways. It must have occured to the O2 executives to look into this issue with respect to their multi-year exclusive contract as well. So it's not about Apple at all. It's about O2 knowing that they can safely lock the iphone --- because it is O2 that is under Ofcom's jurisdiction, not Apple.

As a side note, there are reasons why itunes.com online music store is not available in every European country --- it's forum shopping. Belgium doesn't allow simlocking at all --- but do you think that Apple is not going to launch the iphone in Europe just because they can't sell it in Belgium. In the US, the iphone isn't available in the state of vermont and alaska. UK, Germany and France --- that's the 3 biggest economies in Europe.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

As i have said we really are going round in circles here and yes i do think both Apple and 02 in just implementing the same sales model as in the US may of made a mistake due to their corporate arrogance and the belief that just because that is what they want to happen it will be so.

I have also stated that it appears that it is Apple not 02 that has locked the iPhone and all of this hinges on the fact of whether or not we own our iPhone outright at purchase and just that simple fact is all that is relevant but at this time there is a total lack of accurate information from either 02 or Apple. Again only on the 9th November will all become clear and we will all know who is right or not. Until then i personally have nothing more to say as everything else is merely speculation nothing more.

Marc


Posted by: samab

Would you agree that by definition when you buy a prepaid phone in UK, you buy it outright?

Ofcom had no problem with 3 UK gluing their prepaid phone --- as long as they put it in big font that the phone is permanently locked to 3 UK.

Hell, O2 can glue the sim card inside the iphone permanently, and you can't do a thing about it. This is how toothless the laws are.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

Firstly their is no such thing as prepaid here in the UK it is either a contract phone which is subsidised or a PAYG phone which is also subsidised but to a lesser degree as they can not be sure of your spend. Lastly their is Sim free free which is an unsubsidized device that you own out right from day one.

Will you please stop this rubbish about what 3 did that was in the past and as all their phones are subsidised are not effected by the EU Law that also effects the UK.

I can't see or understand why you even care as you appear to live in Toronto so what ever happens one way or another it will make no difference to you anyway.

Believe me or not i really don't care but i am telling you there is now an EU Law that makes it illegal for a Network any Network or for that matter manufacturer to lock a device that you buy outright and own and force you to use a Network of their choice. It really is that simple and why now a days here in the UK it is a simple and quite a cheap process to get an unlock code for any device that does not form part of a contract. Do you really think all the Networks would be so willing to sell us unlock codes for approx £20 if they didn't have to.

I don't know much about Canadian Law and if it is toothless or not but here in the UK we have some very good consumer Laws that are very effective in protecting the consumer and some of these are indeed because we are part of the EU.

As i have said what happened in the past is totally irrelevant it is what happens on and after the 9th November that is of in tersest to me and if Apples actions are legal or not that is all nothing else.

Marc


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
Will you please stop this rubbish about what 3 did that was in the past and as all their phones are subsidised are not effected by the EU Law that also effects the UK.

Believe me or not i really don't care but i am telling you there is now an EU Law that makes it illegal for a Network any Network or for that matter manufacturer to lock a device that you buy outright and own and force you to use a Network of their choice. It really is that simple and why now a days here in the UK it is a simple and quite a cheap process to get an unlock code for any device that does not form part of a contract. Do you really think all the Networks would be so willing to sell us unlock codes for approx £20 if they didn't have to.


"In the past" --- means 2006.

It is really that simple --- have you seen any brand new UK or EU laws THIS YEAR?

AT&T and T-Mobile USA --- both give out unlocking codes for free. And there is no law forcing them to even give the unlocking codes at all.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

Well i spoke to OFCOM and they agreed and know about the Law or do you seriously think i just making it up for the fun of it read my other posts and if you really want proof phone OFCOM and ask them directly your self if you are so sure no such law exists maybe then you will accept that it does indeed exist and is not just some bizarre fantasy some of us have dreamt up. Here is there number +44 845 050 1614 but you need to make sure you explain you are talking about a device you have bought outright and is locked to only use a single Network as this is what makes it illegal.

Unless you are living in another dimension for me and the rest of the world 2006 is indeed in the past it certainly isn't the present or the future is it?

What possible relevance does what AT&T and T-Mobile do in the USA and Canada have to do with what we are talking about re Apple locking the iPhone in the UK as i can see no connection what so ever so your point is what exactly?

Again as i have said all we have to do is wait until the 9th November to see exactly what the situation is one way or the other until then all this speculation is just pointless and personally i don' think you have a clue what you are talking about but that's just MO from from you posts.

One final point from one of your previous posts just because Apple receive a % of the revenue from iPhones sold does not it in any way mean the phone is subsidised as this is a deal between 02 and Apple not Apple and the consumer. The only relevant issue is if when you purchase your iPhone you own it outright or not and from all the phones that have been sold in the US that are no longer or have never used AT&T it does appear that once you purchase your iPhone you do indeed own it. If this proves to be the case in the UK Apple will be forced to unlock the iPhones they sell whether they want to or not.

Marc


Posted by: samab

The problem is that your question to Ofcom is flawed to begin with (it's like asking the tax department whether all income is taxable --- of course it is, but the tax code is the size of a phone book because of all those exemptions).

Why don't you ask them if the mobile phone box is clearly stating that this phone is unlockable, does the carrier have to give you the unlocking code. Or if the mobile phone box is clearly stating that you can only recieve the unlocking code at the end of the 18 month contract with a administrative cost of x pounds, does the subscriber have a right to ask for unlocking codes before the end of the 18 month contract.

Many people have a mis-understanding that if x carrier is offering unlock codes to their own subscribers --- that can mean only 1 thing (i.e. the government made them do it). My AT&T and T-Mobile USA examples are illustrative of the problems with your line of reasoning (which was this and that british carriers are offering unlocking codes for 20 pounds, so they must be forced by the government to do that).

Viviane Reding and her roaming rate crusade (and her buttheading with the German government about DT's fiber network) have been on the international headlines for the last 18 months. You would think that if she put in some kind of "must unlock" law in the EU/EC in the last 18 months --- some newspaper would have picked it up.

All the revenue sharing means that ordinary consumers can't prove that the iphone is not subsidized. What, these ordinary consumers are going to put out all those "teardown" cost that said the parts cost $250 US --- which doesn't include the cost of R+D, assembling, shipping, distribution...

You can ask the entire hofo about my MO, I may be insistent in my views and how I express them --- but I rarely get things wrong.


Posted by: samab

Someone from a UK-based mobile phone forum also phoned Ofcom and got a completely different answer from you --- no unlock requirement and everything is "suggestive" only.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/...=665503&page=10

You have to ask the right question, in order to get the right answer.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

You really have not grasped the situation firstly do any of the iPhones sold in the US say this on the box stating that this phone is unlock able? As i have heard of no one in the UK or anywhere else mentioning this and I'm sure if that's what it said some one would of said something by now.

Even if it says this on the box which again no one will know until they start selling here it would make no difference. The only point of any relevance is if when you purchase the iPhone do you own it outright or not that and only that point is what matters or counts as this is what the law applies to a device you own outright on purchase can not be locked to a Network as this is illegal.

I don't care what Apple print on the box as just because they say something doesn't make it right or legal. You may be right in everything you have said on the Forum up to know but theirs a first time for everything and just because you say you are right doesn't make it so IMO. Also i have spoken and discussed it with OFCOM and this is what i am basing my opinions on just what are you basing yours on? Out of date websites and just that you believe Apple and 02 are just so clever they must know what they are doing and couldn't possibly of got it wrong?

Again until the 9th November when i discover if on purchase of a iPhone it is owned outright or not there really is nothing more to say. Unlike you i am not claiming to be right i have just pointed out a potential loophole may exist and if it does we in the UK will be able to force Apple to unlock our iPhones that is all.

I have nothing more to say until 9th November at which time i will report if you 02 and Apple really are as clever as you think you all are or not.

Marc


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
@samab

You really have not grasped the situation firstly do any of the iPhones sold in the US say this on the box stating that this phone is unlock able? As i have heard of no one in the UK or anywhere else mentioning this and I'm sure if that's what it said some one would of said something by now.

Even if it says this on the box which again no one will know until they start selling here it would make no difference. The only point of any relevance is if when you purchase the iPhone do you own it outright or not that and only that point is what matters or counts as this is what the law applies to a device you own outright on purchase can not be locked to a Network as this is illegal.

I don't care what Apple print on the box as just because they say something doesn't make it right or legal. You may be right in everything you have said on the Forum up to know but theirs a first time for everything and just because you say you are right doesn't make it so IMO. Also i have spoken and discussed it with OFCOM and this is what i am basing my opinions on just what are you basing yours on? Out of date websites and just that you believe Apple and 02 are just so clever they must know what they are doing and couldn't possibly of got it wrong?

Again until the 9th November when i discover if on purchase of a iPhone it is owned outright or not there really is nothing more to say. Unlike you i am not claiming to be right i have just pointed out a potential loophole may exist and if it does we in the UK will be able to force Apple to unlock our iPhones that is all.

I have nothing more to say until 9th November at which time i will report if you 02 and Apple really are as clever as you think you all are or not.

Marc


There is no law requiring or not requiring unlocking codes in the US. There is no law on "administrative" cost for the unlocking code. American carriers do give out unlocking code for FREE --- as a courtesy to their subscribers who meet certain carrier imposed requirement (like 90 days into the contract).

It's a courtesy --- therefore there is no legal need in the US to explicitly define by the carrier in their advertisement of what is lockable or unlockable. It is different in the UK because the Ofcom policy is that carrier should give proper notice to the consumers of the carrier's own unlocking rules.

What I mean "on the box" is simply a form of proper advertisement. It can mean information on their website, on their brochures, on the poster inside their stores, on the contract form...

Why don't you ask Ofcom whether the 2002 policy is out of date? That is the simplest form of verification. I am basing my entire argument on the most current SIM-locking policy posted on the official Ofcom website --- which stated that the only thing Ofcom cared about is carrier should give proper notice to the consumers of the carrier's own unlocking policy. And if the proper notice states that this particular handset is permanently locked to the carrier, then it has already satisfied Ofcom rules.

What is important is the exact question people ask Ofcom. You can argue with the other English gentleman on the digitalspy.co.uk website. He phoned Ofcom as well, and got a completely different answer than you (and that Ofcom answer is the exactly the same as mine).


Posted by: samab

This is what France faces right now.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...B2081544C17A%7D

Original news article in French (use google translate).

http://www.lesechos.fr/info/hightec/4631726.htm


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

There may have been a development on this story.

The Guardian, which is a fairly respected newspaper in the UK has an interesting article.

They report that as part of the recently announced and much negotiated deal to sell the iPhone in France through Orange that, due to restrictions in French law, they will also have to sell an unlocked model.

If this happens expect immediate legal challenges from the UK (if these have not already been instigated from the 9th).

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technol...n_france.h tml

Official unlocked iPhones will be sold in France

France Telecom's Orange subsidiary will sell both locked and unlocked iPhones
October 17, 2007 4:49 PM

The Apple iPhone will be sold in France by Orange, which is owned by the dominant telephone company, France Télécom, for €399 ($560). And since French law bans phones being locked to a network for more than six months, Orange will also sell an unlocked version, reports International Herald Tribune. However, Orange spokesman Béatrice Mandrine declined to reveal the price when unlocked.

Would French buyers also pay a swingeing Apple Tax on every call?

Mandrine declined to say whether Orange had agreed to give Apple a portion of the service revenue that iPhone users will generate with the device in France. Analysts have said Apple is receiving up to 30 percent of operator revenue for the phone, something unheard of in an industry that has been dominated by operators.

Anyone planning a quick trip to Paris next month?


Posted by: pryncearif

that is stupid though, here in the u.s its illegal to unlock iphones, i even heard unlocking it can bring a person into a lawsuit with apple, in the uk they are allowed to unlock iphone and use them with watever carriers they please, i think americans are being ripped off in every way possible


Posted by: cubs_rule23

It is NOT illegal to unlock phones in th US, please get facts straight before posting.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeanosMagicHat
If this happens expect immediate legal challenges from the UK (if these have not already been instigated from the 9th).


The fact that there is not a speck of trouble in the O2/Apple negotiation --- it really tells you that there is not a single UK law that will trouble Apple's business model at all.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryncearif
that is stupid though, here in the u.s its illegal to unlock iphones, i even heard unlocking it can bring a person into a lawsuit with apple, in the uk they are allowed to unlock iphone and use them with watever carriers they please, i think americans are being ripped off in every way possible


You won't see iphones being given unlocking codes in the UK.

You think Americans are being ripped off --- Brits have to pay their carriers to get the unlocking code. AT&T Wireless and T-Mobile USA provide unlocking codes for free.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubs_rule23
It is NOT illegal to unlock phones in th US, please get facts straight before posting.


I won't go that far.

The carriers can still sue you based on a million different laws --- they just can't sue you based on DMCA. This is why post-DMCA exemptions, Tracfone still kept suing companies and those companies kept settling with Tracfone.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

Here you go again pontificating away would you care to enlighten us all on why you are just so sure of your position? Whilst others including myself hold a very different opinion but at least say we will wait and see what happens.

As you are so happy to state

"The fact that there is not a speck of trouble in the O2/Apple negotiation --- it really tells you that there is not a single UK law that will trouble Apple's business model at all."

Really i wouldn't be so sure if i was you there are many in the UK including current 02 customers that are far from happy at the prospect of the iPhone tariffs after having bought their iPhones.


Again you even say

"You won't see iphones being given unlocking codes in the UK.

You think Americans are being ripped off --- Brits have to pay their carriers to get the unlocking code. AT&T Wireless and T-Mobile USA provide unlocking codes for free."

Well personally i don't consider a £15 charge for an unlock code that unreasonable to cover their admin costs. I just spoke to T-Mobile this morning as i have a friend in Switzerland who had an unlocked RAZR2 V8 but on re flashing is locked again. T-Mobile are happy to sell me an unlock code even though i have never even had my Sim in the phone. As i have explained to you before the Networks never used to sell you an unlock code until the end of your contract or unless you paid the outstanding balance of your contract first. This changed not due to the Networks wanting to be nice or good to their customers but because they were forced to by a EU law that also effects the UK as part of the EU.

As i have said many times previously i totally disagree with your opinion and whilst you are entitled to hold and air it i will await the 9th November and see what happens after that. But it is my opinion and that of others that what 02 and Apple are trying to do will be found to be illegal and they will indeed have to sell an unlock code. Personally i am more likely to wait for Nokia's Touch UI S60 devices to arrive early next year as they will run all S60 apps have 3G, HSDPA and fully functioning Bluetooth and SMS no contest IMO. Also i know on buying one i will be able to get unlocked for £15 straight away.

Marc


Posted by: samab

How is it pontificating when I am just giving you the most current Ofcom policy as stated in their website?

Plently of American hofo'ers aren't happy with AT&T Wireless ignoring their own policy of giving out unlocking codes after 90 days --- with the iphone as the exception.

Your position and my position don't differ much actually. You keep on saying that it all depends on the fine print of the terms and conditions. And I keep on saying that as long as the terms and conditions state that this phone is permanently locked then it satisfies Ofcom policy.

Free unlocking codes from American carriers vs. paying a fee to get unlocking codes from a British carrier. Which one is better? There are no American laws forcing American carriers to give out unlocking codes --- let alone doing it for free. You are making pretty big assumptions to say that British carriers are giving out unlocking codes right now for a fee --- because they have to because some law that nobody in the world (that Google can search on) has managed to find.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab


Sorry but that is not what i am saying at all, this is the only factor of any importance which is does the buyer on purchase of the iPhone own it outright or not and only this.

Apple saying it is locked as that is what they want to do means absolutely nothing, as i have previously explained it is illegal to sell a device in the UK and EU that you own outright that is locked to one Network. As has just been proved in France already with Orange and the iPhone as i would assume Apple would like to sell them locked there as well. But as i have pointed out just because that is what Apple wants doesn't mean that is how it will be.

I have also pointed out that just relying on what the OFCOM website says is totally pointless as it is seriously outdated. As i explained i have already had one conversation with OFCOM but was advised until the device is on sale and they refuse to unlock it they can't start looking into it or take any action.

Any way less than a month to go and will see just how it plays out no one knows for sure what will happen but that's what makes it interesting and a challenge and i love a challenge and fight with a corporate.

Marc


Posted by: samab

Right now, Ofcom doesn't have any major concerns with O2 and Apple --- all they care is whether the consumer is given "adequate information".

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/conten...asp?men=0&sub=1

The long and protracted negotiation between Apple and France Telecom is an indication that they are really facing some big legal problems with the French civil laws on "simlockage".

The lack of details for both the French and German iphone tariff also is an indication that they have been struggling on "pricing out" for the eventual unlocking either at the end of 6 months (France) or at the end of the contract (Germany).

Your whole point on the first page of this thread is that "I can't believe that they [O2 and Apple] don't appear to have thought this one through properly and wonder how many people may do the same thing to them." The smooth negotiation and the immediate release of the iphone tariff details in the UK --- are highly suggestive that there are zero legal problems facing their business model in the UK.

Last month, OnePhone UK submitted a response to Ofcom's consultation paper on porting --- and OnePhone asked Ofcom to consider clear simlocking guidelines including the specific inclusion of the provision of unlocking codes at the end of the contract.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/con...es/onephone.pdf

As of September 2007, there is no Ofcom sim-locking policy that forces the carrier to even give you the unlocking code at the end of your contract. So stop saying that the Ofcom website that I cited is outdated.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

Yet again what is being discussed here is what happens when you have a handset that has been subsidised, it says nothing at all about what happens when you own your handset outright and it doesn't form part of your contract.

So one last time if you bought your handset as part of your contract and at subsidised price that produces one set of circumstances, if how ever you buy your device outright that creates a entirely different situation. and of course both Apple and 02 are going to say those things. As they both want you paying as much as possible on the Tariffs they have created to maximise their profits.

Can we please now let this rest until the 9th November or even a week after this and then we will see exactly what happens, as until then all any of us can do is speculate no one can be sure.

Marc


Posted by: samab

There is no legal distinction between full priced phone and subsidized phone in the UK.

There is no legal distinction between buying a phone outright or not outright. But there are long established legal principles to carve up a real or imaginary item into a million pieces --- each with their own ownership rights. You can buy a high-rise apartment unit --- the land itself can belong to a church and lease it out for 99 years to the company that owns the apartment building, each apartment unit owners owns their own unit and a part ownership in the elevators.

http://realtytimes.com/rtcpages/20030310_lease.htm

Hell, they can sell you a DVD movie disc that can only be vewed for 48 hours.

http://money.cnn.com/1998/12/11/technology/divx/

No such thing as "outright" purchase --- because there are a few hundred years of common laws that say I can sell you a real or imaginary ownership rights that are agreeable between buyers and sellers.

You can buy a "disposable" digital camera that is crippled so that the camera manufacturer is the only company that can take the photos out. You bought this camera "as you said it --- outright" --- and without a contract.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2...redigital_x.htm

You can even hack disposable camera to get the photos out yourselves.

http://webpages.charter.net/tvickers89/PV2mods.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmann
and of course both Apple and 02 are going to say those things.


Don't you think that O2 and Apple --- each have their own separate teams of lawyers going through this thing during their negotiation?

This isn't O2 saying "oh this is going to be fine in the UK" --- and then Apple bought the O2 pitch without Apple's own lawyers checking it out. And vice versa, O2's own lawyers not checking out Apple's "unique" demands to see if O2 is going to be caught by some Ofcom laws.

The French negotiations dragged out so long because both teams of lawyers found real legal obstacles to Apple's business model in France.

What you are saying is essentially like you buying a house and there is a "brand new" second floor addition that the previous owner built himself --- without an architect, without a structural engineer, and without a building permit. The previous owner assure you that the new addition is fine --- and you bought the previous owner's pitch without consulting to your own lawyer. Would you do that?

Both teams of lawyers from O2 and Apple checked over these things during negotiations. Negotiations went really quickly and smooth (unlike France). Pricing of the tariff was announced right away (unlike Germany and France). Don't you think all these things add up to the argument that there are no legal obstacles to Apple's business model for the iphone in the UK?


Posted by: KeanosMagicHat

Anyone know how the UK sales process works at the Apple stores then?

Is it the same as the US in that you buy the phone outright and activate at home?

Cheers.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeanosMagicHat
Anyone know how the UK sales process works at the Apple stores then?

Is it the same as the US in that you buy the phone outright and activate at home?

Cheers.


Like the US, the Brits will buy the iphone at the store and then activate the iphone at home (at that point you signed up for a 18 month contract). But there is no prepay option for the Brits who fail the credit check --- they can only get a full refund.

There is no such legal distinction as buying a mobile phone "outright". Basically every single English speaking common law country in the world takes the position that I can divide any real or imaginery object into a million pieces and sell them separately. It's like buying a house --- you don't necessarily own the land (i.e. freehold vs. leasehold).


Posted by: scotsboyuk

You could buy a handset SIM free, wouldn't that count as outright?


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
You could buy a handset SIM free, wouldn't that count as outright?


You can buy a lot of things, but they don't have to sell a lot of things as well.

It's like if you are going to buy a house with cash (i.e. no mortgage) --- can you force the seller to sell you the house freehold instead of leasehold.

Ofcom's website is one of the most useless websites in terms of getting people the right information. "Consumer can ask for unlocking code... Carriers usually charges..." ---- that means nothing because they don't tell you that you can always ask and the carriers can always refuse. I can always ask the Queen of England to adopt me as her son, but she doesn't have to say yes.

Whenever you read a legal document --- the words "can" and "may" mean that they don't have to do anything. Only the word "shall" has some legal backing power.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Of course a handset doesn't have to be sold SIM free, but my question was that if a handset is being sold SIM free wouldn't that count as 'outright'?

Incidentally, you're Canadian aren't you samab? If so then it would probably be more appropriate to say the Queen of Canada.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
Of course a handset doesn't have to be sold SIM free, but my question was that if a handset is being sold SIM free wouldn't that count as 'outright'?


No, because it is an unilateral interpretation of what you purchased.

It's like you buying a DRM-restricted itunes song (aka a sim-locked phone) vs. a music CD that doesn't have any DRM-restrictions (aka a sim-free phone). Even if you buy a music CD, you still don't own the music "outright" --- you are still governed by copyright laws and limited fair usage rights.

I would say that aside from buying legitimate sim-free unbranded and unlocked handsets from Nokia flagship stores --- most of the so-called sim-free handsets probably broken quite a few laws in Europe. Some are box-broken, some are replaced with non-OEM AC chargers and some of them have gone through the VAT carousel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6710827.stm


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
No, because it is an unilateral interpretation of what you purchased.

It's like you buying a DRM-restricted itunes song (aka a sim-locked phone) vs. a music CD that doesn't have any DRM-restrictions (aka a sim-free phone). Even if you buy a music CD, you still don't own the music "outright" --- you are still governed by copyright laws and limited fair usage rights.

I would say that aside from buying legitimate sim-free unbranded and unlocked handsets from Nokia flagship stores --- most of the so-called sim-free handsets probably broken quite a few laws in Europe. Some are box-broken, some are replaced with non-OEM AC chargers and some of them have gone through the VAT carousel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6710827.stm


I'm not sure your analogy is correct, please correct me if I am wrong. If I buy a SIM free handset then it is my property and I can do whatever I wish with it.

The Carphone Warehouse sells SIM free handsets as might other retailers.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
I'm not sure your analogy is correct, please correct me if I am wrong. If I buy a SIM free handset then it is my property and I can do whatever I wish with it.

The Carphone Warehouse sells SIM free handsets as might other retailers.


The world is also full of people claiming that they bought a music CD and they should be able to do whatever they want to with it.

The world is full of limitations --- if your neighbour is "land locked", then you might be forced to grant a "right of way" for your neighbour. You are limited by zoning laws. You have to give city governments and utility companies access on your land. Even though you own the land "freehold" and you should be able to do whatever you wish with it.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

I understand what you are saying, but what I would like to know is how your argument applicable to SIM free handsets.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
I understand what you are saying, but what I would like to know is how your argument applicable to SIM free handsets.


My argument is that in most of the English speaking common law countries --- these governments have decided NOT to make cell phones a "special case". We take the sensible route by using general contract laws, general property laws, general copyright laws and general consumer protection laws.

There is no inalienable right --- just because it's a cell phone.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

I think you misunderstand what I am asking; if I buy a handset SIM free, that is I buy it unlocked, unbranded and without any contract or airtime, what are the limitations placed upon it that would impinge on the idea that I completely own the handset and can do whatever I like with it?


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
I think you misunderstand what I am asking; if I buy a handset SIM free, that is I buy it unlocked, unbranded and without any contract or airtime, what are the limitations placed upon it that would impinge on the idea that I completely own the handset and can do whatever I like with it?


There are no general limitations on legitimate unlocked unbranded sim-free handsets.

The big problem is that the majority of these sim-free handsets are probably not that legit at all. If you read news reports about unlocked iphones --- they talked about distributors and dealers and big brick and morter stores.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/content/17175.asp?

These news reports make it sound like it's all legit --- we got these phones from a distributor. How many of them were box-broken, how many of them didn't pay any import and export taxes, how many of them went through the VAT carousel and how many of them have non-legit ac adaptors switched.

99% of the people who buy grey-market goods --- don't ever ask whether everything is legit. Don't ask and don't tell --- doesn't mean that they are all perfect.

Basically you can't have a VAT carousel fraud of £5 billion a year --- without the average "legit" looking brick and morter stores buying these stuff.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage...1877248,00.html


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
There are no general limitations on legitimate unlocked unbranded sim-free handsets.

The big problem is that the majority of these sim-free handsets are probably not that legit at all. If you read news reports about unlocked iphones --- they talked about distributors and dealers and big brick and morter stores.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/content/17175.asp?

These news reports make it sound like it's all legit --- we got these phones from a distributor. How many of them were box-broken, how many of them didn't pay any import and export taxes, how many of them went through the VAT carousel and how many of them have non-legit ac adaptors switched.

99% of the people who buy grey-market goods --- don't ever ask whether everything is legit. Don't ask and don't tell --- doesn't mean that they are all perfect.

Basically you can't have a VAT carousel fraud of £5 billion a year --- without the average "legit" looking brick and morter stores buying these stuff.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage...1877248,00.html


I wasn't specifically referring to the iPhone, I was meaning SIM free handsets in general. In the UK SIM free handsets can be gotten very easily and as you point out in your opening statement there are no general limitations on them.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
I wasn't specifically referring to the iPhone, I was meaning SIM free handsets in general. In the UK SIM free handsets can be gotten very easily and as you point out in your opening statement there are no general limitations on them.


But what is defined as general limitations? Nokia N-series unlocked and unbranded cell phones will still point to the Nokia online store (so called Nokia Content Discoverer). It still requires some sort of signed software.

You are just replacing one set of walled garden to another set of walled garden.

I am using the iphone as an example of a clear example of non-legit phones. But my point is that most of the other phones that are sold as sim-free are probably not legit as well. You can't have a 5 billion pound tax problem unless the seemingly legit distributors are on it, the seemingly legit dealers are on it and the seemingly legit brick and morter stores are on it.

You are able to buy sim-free phones in the UK "easily" and "cheaply" because the UK government is eating a 5 billion pound tax fraud problem. They can keep prices low because they are already scamming the government 20-30 pounds a phone on tax fraud. And there are all kinds of fake stuff mixed into the very legitimate supply chain.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/content/3225.asp


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
But what is defined as general limitations? Nokia N-series unlocked and unbranded cell phones will still point to the Nokia online store (so called Nokia Content Discoverer). It still requires some sort of signed software.

You are just replacing one set of walled garden to another set of walled garden.


You don't have to buy anything and you can go to another website if you like.

Quote:
I am using the iphone as an example of a clear example of non-legit phones. But my point is that most of the other phones that are sold as sim-free are probably not legit as well. You can't have a 5 billion pound tax problem unless the seemingly legit distributors are on it, the seemingly legit dealers are on it and the seemingly legit brick and morter stores are on it.


I very much doubt whether the Carphone Warehouse is participating in the selling of non-legit SIM free handsets. At any rate the legitimacy wasn't what I was asking about, rather the concept, that when bought, a SIM free handset is one's own property.

Quote:
You are able to buy sim-free phones in the UK "easily" and "cheaply" because the UK government is eating a 5 billion pound tax fraud problem. They can keep prices low because they are already scamming the government 20-30 pounds a phone on tax fraud. And there are all kinds of fake stuff mixed into the very legitimate supply chain.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/content/3225.asp


I didn't say 'cheaply, I did say 'easily' though. A N95 will still cost £480 SIM free (inc VAT), but it is easy to buy, all you have to do is walk into a Carphone Warehouse and ask for one.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
I very much doubt whether the Carphone Warehouse is participating in the selling of non-legit SIM free handsets. At any rate the legitimacy wasn't what I was asking about, rather the concept, that when bought, a SIM free handset is one's own property.


Why not? Even very large UK chains got the fake nokia chargers. Everybody got their phones from a "distributor". Even companies like GAP have occasionally sell clothing made by little kids.

You can't have a 5 billion pound tax fraud problem unless the "high street" stores are selling these stuff.

The "concept" means nothing if it doesn't actually have any real world effect. How many people will actually pay for a French sim-free iphone that cost a thousand euro? There are Nokia flagship stores in New York City selling unbranded unlocked N-series phones as well. It means nothing to the general consumer.


Posted by: Dogmann

@samab

Sorry but with this statement you really have lost the plot completely

"There are no general limitations on legitimate unlocked unbranded Sim-free handsets"

There well may be a small percentage of phones on the grey market as you put it that are involved in VAT fraud but these same handsets go round and round hence it is called carousel fraud. But the large majority of handsets that are Sim free come direct from the manufacturers and 100% legitimate and designed for the non contract Sim Free market.

Marc


Posted by: samab

They may be legit sim-free phones --- but their continued existence is the result of the VAT carousel fraud.

The high street stores are getting sim-free phones at certain price because their distributors are getting rich by other means (whether they be VAT tax fraud on other products or switching out legit ac adaptors with fakes).

I am a believer of you get what you paid for. If you want cheap toys then you are going to be stuck with chinese made toys with lead paint.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
Why not? Even very large UK chains got the fake nokia chargers. Everybody got their phones from a "distributor". Even companies like GAP have occasionally sell clothing made by little kids.

You can't have a 5 billion pound tax fraud problem unless the "high street" stores are selling these stuff.

The "concept" means nothing if it doesn't actually have any real world effect. How many people will actually pay for a French sim-free iphone that cost a thousand euro? There are Nokia flagship stores in New York City selling unbranded unlocked N-series phones as well. It means nothing to the general consumer.


Do you have proof that the Carphone Warehouse is selling illegitimate SIM free handsets? To the best of my knowledge they are not and I have not seen any reports stating otherwise. Whether a company is or isn't isn't really the issue though, the central point was that a SIM free handset is the property of the person who buys it and they can do whatever they like with it.

It's also worth asking how you know it does not matter to the general consumer. Many people on this forum prefer to buy SIM free handsets. They may have more knowledge of the mobile world than most consumers, but they are still consumers themselves and constitute a market, thus SIM free handsets do matter to at least some consumers.

The ability to buy an unlocked handset is actually quite important to some people. As someone who works in a mobile shop I have first hand experience of this; many customers are pleased that their handset is unlocked and allows them to use any SIM card they wish and they aren't necessarily customers who are steeped in knowledge of the market.


Posted by: samab

Don't need to prove if a certain store sells legit or non-legit sim-free cell phones.

The whole european VAT carousel fraud is in the $20-30 billion range a year. The whole cell phone ecosystem is being financed by that (and also by opaque public disclosure laws for the stock market which allows many non-uk european carriers to count non-current subscribers as current subscribers).

It's a "victimless" crime --- the only people getting hurt is the tax department and the shareholders.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
Don't need to prove if a certain store sells legit or non-legit sim-free cell phones.

The whole european VAT carousel fraud is in the $20-30 billion range a year. The whole cell phone ecosystem is being financed by that (and also by opaque public disclosure laws for the stock market which allows many non-uk european carriers to count non-current subscribers as current subscribers).

It's a "victimless" crime --- the only people getting hurt is the tax department and the shareholders.


That is all very well and good, but it really has nothing to do with the central point of the customer fully owning a SIM free handset that they have purchased. As far as I am aware the Carphone Warehouse has never been accused of selling illegitimate SIM free handsets and, in relation to the point that was being discussed, if one buys such a handset then it is indeed one's own property to do with as one sees fit.


Posted by: MWEB

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
That is all very well and good, but it really has nothing to do with the central point of the customer fully owning a SIM free handset that they have purchased. As far as I am aware the Carphone Warehouse has never been accused of selling illegitimate SIM free handsets and, in relation to the point that was being discussed, if one buys such a handset then it is indeed one's own property to do with as one sees fit.

Scotsboy is correct IMO.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

@mweb

Hello there! *waves* Fancy seeing you here old boy!


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
As far as I am aware the Carphone Warehouse has never been accused of selling illegitimate SIM free handsets and, in relation to the point that was being discussed, if one buys such a handset then it is indeed one's own property to do with as one sees fit.


But in real life, you don't get use the sim-free unlocked and unbranded N-series phones as you see fit.

Nokia is just going to point you to their online music store and their online software store and their online gaming store. They are still going to ask you to run signed codes.

It's just a different set of limitations.


Posted by: MWEB

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
@mweb

Hello there! *waves* Fancy seeing you here old boy!

Och eye the noo Scots


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
But in real life, you don't get use the sim-free unlocked and unbranded N-series phones as you see fit.

Nokia is just going to point you to their online music store and their online software store and their online gaming store. They are still going to ask you to run signed codes.

It's just a different set of limitations.


Nokia can point me to those things, but I am under no obligation to use them and I can visit other websites that offer content if I choose.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
Nokia can point me to those things, but I am under no obligation to use them and I can visit other websites that offer content if I choose.


Of course, you are under no obligation to buy stuff from Nokia's websites.

But Nokia is also under no obligation to give you a generic "unbranded" firmware with all the Nokia stores taken out.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Whether the stores are in or not is irrelevant since I am not forced to use them. A handset locked to a network would force me to use that network and would thus curtail what I could do with the handset. A handset with a preprogrammed link to a certain website doesn't since I can choose not to use that website.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
Whether the stores are in or not is irrelevant since I am not forced to use them. A handset locked to a network would force me to use that network and would thus curtail what I could do with the handset. A handset with a preprogrammed link to a certain website doesn't since I can choose not to use that website.


Aside from the Nokia store links, they can also force you to use only apps that have signed codes (s60 series 3rd edition) --- which curtails you to make mobile apps for yourself.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

They could, but they don't. At any rate that is an irrelevancy if it's a non-smartphone. Even where it is a smartphone it doesn't detract from the concept that one completely owns the handset. Every device has limitations, I can't play PS3 games on my Wii, for example, but that doesn't detract from the fact that I completely own my Wii.


Posted by: samab

As you said it, every device has limitations.

We don't "own" the wii console "outright". It is governed by EULA and hacking it in the US will attract DMCA problems (it isn't a a cell phone, so no exemptions).

There are a million different limitations --- like I can't build a house right on the property line (needs x number of meters in setback).

A cell phone is no different than 10 million other items you own --- having ownership and possession of it are still going to be restricted by certain limitations.

Dogmann phoned Ofcom/Otelo/Trading Standards/Consumer Direct today --- and guess what --- "outright" is irrelevant.

http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopi...58413&start=150


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
As you said it, every device has limitations.

We don't "own" the wii console "outright". It is governed by EULA and hacking it in the US will attract DMCA problems (it isn't a a cell phone, so no exemptions).

There are a million different limitations --- like I can't build a house right on the property line (needs x number of meters in setback).

A cell phone is no different than 10 million other items you own --- having ownership and possession of it are still going to be restricted by certain limitations.

Dogmann phoned Ofcom/Otelo/Trading Standards/Consumer Direct today --- and guess what --- "outright" is irrelevant.

http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopi...58413&start=150


The limitations you cite don't impinge on the idea that it is the property of the person who bought it though. If I buy a car outright I am legally not allowed to drive it faster than 70 MPH on a motorway. I might have to abide by that rule, but that doesn't stop the car from being my property.

Conversely one is not bound to use one's property for the purposes it was intended for. If I buy a SIM free handset I can use it as a paperweight if I choose, neither the manufacturer nor the networks can force me to use it as a mobile phone.


Posted by: samab

You are also not allowed to modify your car for street racing --- i.e. putting nitrous oxide. Depending on jurisdiction, you are also not allowed to disable the daytime running light, not allowed to cut the seating belt out, not allowed to put steel chains on the tires for driving in the snow (I am from Canada after all).

Nothing prevents you to put the iphone into the blender and see if it blends.

But you know what --- there is no such thing as "outright" cell phones in the UK laws as far as unlocking is concern. You can emulate Dogmann and called Ofcom/Otelo/Trading Standards/Consumer Direct. There is no special status for it.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
You are also not allowed to modify your car for street racing --- i.e. putting nitrous oxide. Depending on jurisdiction, you are also not allowed to disable the daytime running light, not allowed to cut the seating belt out, not allowed to put steel chains on the tires for driving in the snow (I am from Canada after all).

Nothing prevents you to put the iphone into the blender and see if it blends.

But you know what --- there is no such thing as "outright" cell phones in the UK laws as far as unlocking is concern. You can emulate Dogmann and called Ofcom/Otelo/Trading Standards/Consumer Direct. There is no special status for it.


The limitations you cite still don't impinge upon the idea that if one buys a SIM free handset it is one's own property. There are laws and regulations that are in place that prevent us from doing many things, but they do not diminish the fact that one's own personal property is just that, one's own personal property. The owner gets to choose how the handset is to be used within the law.


Posted by: samab

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotsboyuk
The limitations you cite still don't impinge upon the idea that if one buys a SIM free handset it is one's own property. There are laws and regulations that are in place that prevent us from doing many things, but they do not diminish the fact that one's own personal property is just that, one's own personal property. The owner gets to choose how the handset is to be used within the law.


And there are laws and regulations in place restricts your use of your handset --- like how you can't mess with the radio chipset. A tri-band cell phone probably has a quad band radio chipset, but it would be against the law for you to "flip" a switch in the firmware yourself to enable this feature.

There is nothing "special" about a cell phone. You buy some land, there are a bunch of limitations on how you can use your land. You buy a car, there are a bunch of limitations on how you can use your car. You buy a cell phone, there are a bunch of limitations on how you can use your cell phone.

Are you going to sue the government because they put a "speed limiter" on your German car (which can go really really fast in their native German Autobahn)? Same car model as in Germany --- but at a much lower speed. You own the right to your car, you know that you can't drive over the speed limit --- but damn it, it is my right as a car owner to be able to have a "unlimited" speed option in the car's engine computer.

There is no "special status" for a cell phone owner to have extra-ordinary property powers. No special status in the eyes of Ofcom, Otelo, Trading Standards or Consumer Direct.


Posted by: scotsboyuk

Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
And there are laws and regulations in place restricts your use of your handset --- like how you can't mess with the radio chipset. A tri-band cell phone probably has a quad band radio chipset, but it would be against the law for you to "flip" a switch in the firmware yourself to enable this feature.

There is nothing "special" about a cell phone. You buy some land, there are a bunch of limitations on how you can use your land. You buy a car, there are a bunch of limitations on how you can use your car. You buy a cell phone, there are a bunch of limitations on how you can use your cell phone.

Are you going to sue the government because they put a "speed limiter" on your German car (which can go really really fast in their native German Autobahn)? Same car model as in Germany --- but at a much lower speed. You own the right to your car, you know that you can't drive over the speed limit --- but damn it, it is my right as a car owner to be able to have a "unlimited" speed option in the car's engine computer.

There is no "special status" for a cell phone owner to have extra-ordinary property powers. No special status in the eyes of Ofcom, Otelo, Trading Standards or Consumer Direct.


I am not saying that one sh