vB Easy Archive - iPhone vs. LG Voyager

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iPhone vs. LG Voyager
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Posted by: Ryan Bell

I've heard so many mixed reviews of this comparison from people that it's ridiculous....especially considering the Voyager doesn't even come out till next week.

I'm on Verizon now, but after using a friend's iPhone, I was just blown away. I'm not even a Mac guy either. Good grief, it's *soooo* nice to use. The interface, feel, look, and everything was just amazing to me.

The Voyager looks pretty slick, but as far as real world functionality, user interface, speaker/earpiece quality, etc, what do you think is the better phone?

I'm seriously considering making the jump to AT&T (no interest in unlocking an iPhone), but the Voyager has me taking a second look.

What are your thoughts on comparing the two based on what you know?

Posted by: samsung.user

Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.50 (J2ME/MIDP; Opera Mini/4.0.9751/208; U; en))

It will depend how good internet browsing will be on the voyager. That is the main part of the iphone. Wait until you can try one out at the store. You will know right away if you will like it or not.

Posted by: manchuia

engadget did a review that showed the web browser, and it looked to be WAP and automatically redirected to mobile sites:

I am sorry but I can't imagine having two screens that large and I get clickable text WAP sites as my only browsing option. I think that is beyond silly with the price point of the device (especially comparative).

Posted by: Ryan Bell

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchuia

engadget did a review that showed the web browser, and it looked to be WAP and automatically redirected to mobile sites.

I am sorry but I can't imagine having two screens that large and I get clickable text WAP sites as my only browsing option. I think that is beyond silly with the price point of the device (especially comparative).

If that's the true, that's god-awfully ridiculous. That's enough right there to sway me in the other direction.

Posted by: samsung.user

I would avoid verizon anyhow. They have good service and all, pretty phones with good hardware, but software wise they are pretty bad.

At least when you get sick of the iphone you can pick out any phone in the world to use with at&t.

Ok, just noticed you are on verizon already. So, on the other hand, the voyager will be a very nice upgrade to your current phone.

Posted by: Ryan Bell

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsung.user

I would avoid verizon anyhow. They have good service and all, pretty phones with good hardware, but software wise they are pretty bad.

At least when you get sick of the iphone you can pick out any phone in the world to use with at&t.

Ok, just noticed you are on verizon already. So, on the other hand, the voyager will be a very nice upgrade to your current phone.

I'm leaning iPhone right now...

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Unfortunately, that might be a Verizon restriction more than it is a drawback of the Voyager. They're kinda in the same boat. They both have crippled Bluetooth and since it's Verizon, they are both locked down in terms of software and media freedom.

If the web browser proves to be better, then it's worth it to have the optional hardware keyboard, but otherwise? You may as well get the iPhone. I mean, damn. WAP only is just inexcusable.

Posted by: samsung.user

Wasn't the voyager supposed to have an html browser?

But a gsm version with 3.2mp schnieder (sp?) lens would be pretty sweet. I personally cannot stand carrier UI's. Even minor changes like replacing icons and shortcuts, and adding additional things to try to make you spend money pisses me off.

Posted by: Zap2

CMDA, Verizon's standard OS, and that terrible web browser...come on? That made you give a 2nd look?

Go get an iPhone...(or a N95....but not a Voyager)

Posted by: Chocolover15

Last time i checked the iPhone doesnt have a keyboard on it and is not mobile tv compatable...hm...

Posted by: manchuia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocolover15

Last time i checked the iPhone doesnt have a keyboard on it and is not mobile tv compatable...hm...

with 8gb, you can sync tv shows via itunes and watch it on a bigger screen

Posted by: huskyfan23

LG sucks. The keyboards on their few phones that have them look like crap. Switch to AT&T, get the free phone, sell the free phone, then get an unlocked phone that interests you. You can sell the free phone for at least $200 and you could buy an iPhone on eBay if you still want one.

Posted by: manchuia

looks can be deceiving. The keyboards that look nice (and have been reported by the "pro" bloggers as nice) have always been crap for me.

Feel and use are an extremely personal matter, so I would suggest trying out the keyboard in the store.

It' funny though. in order to "really" try the iphone keyboard (according to all the ifans) you need to use it constantly for a week, but that requires opening the box and using the phone for a week to then determine if you might like it. that's a $40 test trial right there (10% restockign fee, unless you try to sell it online). At least a real keypad you will find out pretty quickly if it works for you.

Posted by: Zap2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocolover15

Last time i checked the iPhone doesnt have a keyboard on it and is not mobile tv compatable...hm...

last time I checked the Voyager didn't have 8Gbs and is not iTunes compatable..hm....

Posted by: manchuia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zap2

last time I checked the Voyager didn't have 8Gbs and is not iTunes compatable..hm....

I can give you the 8Gbs, but locking someone into a proprietary software solution for most features is usually is not a feature.

example: At least I can load music onto the Voyager from a Linux install...

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zap2

last time I checked the Voyager didn't have 8Gbs and is not iTunes compatable..hm....

Lol, wireless iTunes, so Apple can cash in on you in any wireless network (but you still can't manage what you buy until you sync again).

Vcast and Verizon's data speeds blow iTunes and EDGE out of the water.

Posted by: huskyfan23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zap2

last time I checked the Voyager didn't have 8Gbs and is not iTunes compatable..hm....

How about an 8GB MicroSD card? And the iPhone really only has like 7.2GB because of the OS. A phone requiring you to use iTunes doesn't make a phone better IMO.

Posted by: Ryan Bell

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

iTunes is a GOOD thing, and it's the preferable way to buy wireless music. Stealing music isn't an option. Ever.

Verizon's data speeds are indeed better than Edge, but the iPhone's Wifi will blow away Verizon's data speeds.

The iPhone's interface alone puts it light years ahead of anything else I've seen. Plus, the way it integrates everything is incredible, and SUPER useful (the way you can tap a phone number in a text msg, and it dials it instantly, the real time traffic updates, google maps integration, call merging, etc, etc).

Posted by: huskyfan23

iTunes is good if you like DRM and not having the ability to transfer your music outside of iTunes. Who ever needs to buy music while on the go anyways? I guess the same people that sign up for those monthly ringtone downloads they see on TV ads

I still don't understand why the interface is that great? It's pretty. That's it.

As far as Google Maps and such, take a look at other smartphones and you'll see they too do all that.

Posted by: manchuia

As far as dial a number from txt or email. My sidekick and mda can do the same as well.

This shouldn't devolve into an iphone bashing thread or a comparison to any device other than the voyager

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Bell

My music downloading habits aside, DRM isn't acceptable either. If I spend any money on music, it's mine, and I choose what I want to do with it, including sync it to as many of my devices as I want

Sure, wifi is great. . . when you're in a network. Even if the iPhone did have 3G, Verizon's EVDO coverage is faster and the coverage is much, much better.

Well, I guess that would depend on what you're used. Cross app integration has been done and done better, as others have mentioned already. S60 has had all of those same features for years.

Why did you even start this thread? It's obvious which phone you're going to buy.

Posted by: uncman

All these people that own iPhones are trying to sway you!!! If you have a VX9800, you will realize the iPhone has the worst DAMN keyboard in the world. You can't download games, you can't send or recieve picture messages, the camera doesn't have a zoom or any photo editing options, according to Cnet and PC Mag the voice quality sucks, and it lacks 3G. If you are going to switch to AT&T get a Nokia N95. Otherwise, get a Voyager. It's supposed to be like the VX9800 only much better.

Posted by: samsung.user

Any device that limits you or forces you to use certain software, and especially a certain operating system should be avoided.

I have never used itunes in my life, so not sure what is so important about it.

Posted by: Ryan Bell

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

Why did you even start this thread? It's obvious which phone you're going to buy.

Because if I'm wrong, I want someone to talk me out of it.

Posted by: samsung.user

And guess what? All phones can run google maps and get real time traffic info. All except for verizons since no java, and some of t-mobiles since they block network access.

Most phones can extract a number from text and dial it too.

Posted by: Ryan Bell

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsung.user

And guess what? All phones can run google maps and get real time traffic info. All except for verizons since no java, and some of t-mobiles since they block network access.

Most phones can extract a number from text and dial it too.

Very cool. Didn't know that, as I've been with Verizon since its inception.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Bell

Because if I'm wrong, I want someone to talk me out of it.

Look at it like this. Buying the iPhone alone makes for a questionable purchase in the state it's in by itself, but you have another $200 of an ETF to pay on top of it. I don't see any evidence whatsoever that it's worth the former, much less the latter.

The data will only be $15/month with the Voyager, you'll have Verizon's network and high speed data in many more places than you will have hotspots. Even if the iPhone did have 3G, it couldn't compete with EVDO. Autofocus on the camera is going to make a noticeable difference in picture quality and you're getting two screens for the price of one. You can also buy an 8gb microSD card directly from Verizon now or elsewhere if you can find it cheaper. The UI probably won't be as nice as the iPhone (it'll always be at the top for ease of use since it was designed for mass production for the general public), but you won't be tied to a computer for managing your media, at the very least. If all else fails, you also have a full QWERTY to back you up if the touch screen doesn't cut it. If Apple had designed the iPhone like the Voyager, they wouldn't have gotten nearly as much of a backlash. If I were on Verizon, I'd probably buy one too.

There's a reason people have a lot to say against the iPhone, and it has nothing to do with jealousy or not being able to afford one.

Posted by: aggie99

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

i concur. I have alot to say about the iPhone. I owned one for about 2 months. It is a great ipod, with a crappy phone and a lack of many of the basic functions now included on your basic flip phones. I can't believe I paid $599 for it when i did. If it was $299 it'd be an ok buy, but even $399 is too high for a phone with no 3g, no pix messaging (MMS), no A2DP (stereo bluetooth), no file system, no ability to download attachments/pics from emails to your device. these are all features i had with my Sprint Sanyo PM8200 a few years ago with the exception of a file browser, but I could still at least import photos into my photo album from email.

To the OP-Don't give into the hype and leave Verizon just to get an iPhone, especially if you have to pay an ETF.

Posted by: Ryan Bell

Wow. So that bad huh? Pix messaging is utterly useless to me. Couldn't care less about stereo bluetooth either. ...or video recording.

But the thing about the PHONE being bad scared me.

Why is it so bad? AT&T's coverage, or the physical phone itself (the earpiece speaker, etc)

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Bell

Wow. So that bad huh? Pix messaging is utterly useless to me. Couldn't care less about stereo bluetooth either. ...or video recording.

But the thing about the PHONE being bad scared me.

Why is it so bad? AT&T's coverage, or the physical phone itself (the earpiece speaker, etc)

A lot of things factor into it. The ear piece delivers poor quality (which can be hardware or network related, but more likely hardware), the voice quality doesn't have the 3G bandwidth for better sound, and the speakerphone is almost useless in any remotely loud environment. The ease of use is nice for all the functions right there on the screen, but other phones have the same features and I'd be surprised if the Voyager didn't as well.

The other basics as far as strict phone use are all missing as well. Voice dialing and speed dialing are absent, which will matter only if you use them. I for one use both often, especially the former while connected to a Bluetooth headset. You'll have your favorites list, but it's just as many presses to get to it as you world navigating through the phone book anyway.

You kinda have to look at it like it's an iPod with a phone added to it, just like Windows Mobile is like a PDA with a phone added to it. In either case, the emphasis isn't on making calls.

Posted by: aggie99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Bell

I had the iPhone for 3 months and really after a month I found myself more bored and frustrated with it than enjoying it. The one thing that it does better than all other phones is internet browsing. The browser on it is amazing. But unless you are always in a wi-fi area, it can also be painful with EDGE. To be honest, the Nokia N95-3 really surprised me as music playback is actually BETTER than the iPhone. This thing sounds amazing. But back on topic, i understand pix messaging is useless to you and stereo bluetooth/video recording are useless as well. BUT, you are getting those things on your cheapie phones. WHY would you pay hundreds more for a phone that cannot do those basic things? What would justify spending that money? Because its pretty? Because everybody has one? Don't get me wrong the form factor is beautiful on it. That's what lured me in. But I came to my senses fairly quickly.

I'm still also skeptical of how far 3rd party development can go on a phone that has no buttons. Trying to play games on it was painful...and that was just simple games. you have to hope that the phone recognizes your touches. Some could care less, but again, a phone that's hyped to be so revolutionary should be able to do games well. Even Windows Mobile phones do decent in that department, but neither compare to the N95 whose potential i'm dying to see unleashed.

Lastly, like JonnyBruha said, the call quality is horrendous on it. It's not necessarily AT&T. It doesn't have 3G, and voice quality is much improved in 3G devices. The earpiece volume is horrendous and the speakerphone is much, much worse. If i was anywhere other than a library the speakerphone was useless, and even if I was in a library it still would probably be barely audible. Ultimately it's your decision of course, I can only give you my opinions based on a few months of use of the device. But my opinions have been mirrored by many others who also were disappointed in it. If you can grab one used for $200, sure go for it. But I wouldn't pay full price, and pay an ETF (if applicable) to jump ship from Verizon who in my opinion is the best carrier around to ATT.

Posted by: manchuia

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchuia

engadget did a review that showed the web browser, and it looked to be WAP and automatically redirected to mobile sites:

I correct my previous post. The Voyager has three modes in the browser, standard, screen optomized, and text only. Makes it a ton easier if you are just looking up something, or you want a real web browsing experience.

Review: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/...the-lg-voyager/

Google maps is not needed on Verizon as I think all of their phones have a verizon maps client with turn by turn (might be wrong). It's not free, but the price you pay gets you turn by turn as opposed to looking down and moving Google maps forward manually (tricky and annoying while driving

)

I think I might get this as I am really loving the device layout (like the low end e90 nokia never made).

Oh well, just wanted to make sure this was a balanced source of info and not an iphone bashing thread.

Posted by: aggie99

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchuia

my intent wasn't necessarily to bash the iPhone. It isn't a horrible phone, just not a $399(or $599) worthy phone. Now the Voyager, with EVDO and pix messaging and verizon coverage. $299 is not bad at all. And those screen shots look sweet.

Did verizon cripple this one with it's bland OS though?

Posted by: samsung.user

Glad it has HTML. I think every phone these days should have html, but especially if you have a keyboard and nice screen.

I think this phone is pretty nice. I am really wondering if there will be a gsm version? I can really see a tri-band with euro hsdpa and 3.2 schieder (sp?) lens coming out Q2 2008

Posted by: JonnyBruha

I feel stupid that I doubted it had HTML at all in the first place. One of my Verizon reps had to ask me what HTML was because he had never heard of it before until it was mentioned as one of the specs on the side of the Voyager.

Posted by: manchuia

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsung.user

Glad it has HTML. I think every phone these days should have html, but especially if you have a keyboard and nice screen.

I think this phone is pretty nice. I am really wondering if there will be a gsm version? I can really see a tri-band with euro hsdpa and 3.2 schieder (sp?) lens coming out Q2 2008

I doubt there will be a GSM variant as none of the other LG V series were released as a GSM variant.

I find it really odd. LG has a product in their portfolio that could address a severely under represented niche (a non bar / slider QWERTY/ non smartphone OS phone) but they haven't released it. No clue why as I am sure this (in GSM form) would be an absurdly popular device with heavy texters that really don't want the hassles of a smartphone OS.

oh and Jonny, don't feel bad about assuming no HTML. It would surprise NO ONE that is used to Verizon's tactics if they took off the real browser on this thing to cut back on data usage from browsing while still charging you more than other carriers

Posted by: EChid

Also, for the nerds/trekkies present (you can probably tell where this is going already)...

Captain Janeway and the actual ship Voyager were two of the best parts of Star Trek: Voyager, so thats an awesome reason for getting one. Honestly, every time I see the name I picture the phone flying through space and firing torpedoes at ill-doing Klingons.

/end of off topic, trek moment, do continue...

Posted by: cingular#1

man my Nokia 8290 owns the iphone and voyager combined.

But really this doesn't stand a chance against Steve's way of marketing.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

As I said in another thread a couple minutes ago, the Voyager is the clear winner. I got a chance to play around with it today at work and it's impressive. The tactile feedback felt great, the camera had tons of options, the hardware keyboard felt very nice, and the device is absolutely gorgeous. I'm even considering opening up a Verizon line (with corporate discount) just to use this phone. It really is that nice.

The best part was that there was no feeling of being trapped like their is on the iPhone. If I needed to spit out something as long as this message and the touch screen wasn't going to cut it, the option of a full QWERTY keyboard gives me the freedom to do so. That, and I know I don't have to use a computer to alter my media on it at any given time. Very impressive.

Posted by: lenyar

iPhone has:
speaker phone is low
no digital voice quality
high latency on text messaging
text only to one person at a time
no voice dialing
low coverage area
low music playback
no picture messaging
no video messaging
no sound messaging
very little amount of games available
low earpiece volume
no turn by turn directions
google maps not able to find GPS location
no bluetooth file transfer

These are things available on a cheap Verizon LG VX-8300. I've had over 20 phones in the past 7 years which included my 30 day iPhone trial and so far my enV and 8830 were the best. My Voyager should be coming in tomorrow and hopefully it will give me what a $600 iPhone couldn't... a good phone that can play music, videos and go on online during my train ride to the city. Enphasis on GOOD phone.

Posted by: samsung.user

Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.50 (J2ME/MIDP; Opera Mini/4.0.9751/208; U; en))

Just had a chance to check out the voyager. I guess i am spoiled by opera mini, but browsing wasn't that good. Slow and hard to navigate around. Opera on edge could load a full page faster. I don't like it at all. Of course just my opinion.

Posted by: manchuia

yeah, i just got to play around with it and I was pretty impressed. The UI kills it though. I would love for LG to come out with this using their croix UI, but that wont happen.

i think the iphone is a more focused and (as such) better product for what it does, but I can't find much that the iphone can do that the voyager can't, and the voyager's features add up

Posted by: JonnyBruha

I got a chance to play around with the web browser on the Voyager a bit more today. The load times for pulling up Howard Forums was pretty bad and as it loaded the phone got more and more unresponsive. Likewise, my buddy just picked up the Tilt and let me play around with that too. I had to load Opera Mini onto it. PIE was just as horrendous as I had remembered it to be.

I ask anyone who hasn't yet, please try an N95, for your own sake.

Posted by: muzhik

iPhone = Vista
Voyager = Well Tune XP

. end of dicussion...

Posted by: huskyfan23

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzhik

iPhone = Vista
Voyager = Well Tune XP

. end of dicussion...

What that says to me is the iPhone is superior

Posted by: Vagabundus

I have neither phone. I probably will not ever own either.

But I do understand some things about communication.

Here are a few things to keep in mind when you try comparing two different communicative interfaces:

1. Ideally you want the *right amount* of information for your task. Too little is frustrating because you can't do what you want, or find out what you need to know. Too much is frustrating because you end up paying more attention to the device than to the communicative task or information content.

2. There are no better or worse ways of communicating. There are ways that will function more "intuitively" for a particular user. Thing is, most of intuition comes from our experiences. Whatever is more like what you already use will be more intuitive to you.

3. The cellphone is not necessarily primarily a phone anymore. It has many very different functions and is used by different people in dramatically different ways. Getting the best telephone might not be the most pleasing choice overall for a particular person.

4. Most people will grow to use the things that are easily accessible to them. Text messaging is neither good nor evil, but it may be a blessing or a curse to someone, depending on their communicative style.

5. Most people who study these sorts of thing full time have no idea why one product takes off and changes the way people do things, and why another never catches on. The way some posts read, some ignorant troll runs Verizon (or AT&T) and is devoted to the destruction of the company. While it might end up appearing that way in retrospect, it seldom looks that way as the critical events unfold. It's easy for even most imbeciles to point to something that didn't end up working to say "that was stupid!" Unfortunately, these imbeciles don't seem to be able to make the same observation before a particular product or feature is launched.

6. No communication company is ultimately there to do anything but make a profit. Technically, that is the only thing they are legally allowed to do--their stockholders have the right to sue if management does not attempt to maximize profits. The difference is that some companies believe--really and truly believe--that you can make a better profit in the long run if you run an ethical or even philanthropic company. Others really and truly believe that this is just a way for managers who can't cut it to look like they are succeeding.

7. Therefore, you should never believe that any company is telling you everything, and should never ever believe that any company is really out to make the world a better place--even if that means no profit.

8. All taken together, this means that the iPhone and the Voyager (and the other phones mentioned here) are each the products of different experts' vision for what will please more consumers, given the (unforeseen) circumstances of the product's life.

9. So when you are asking the question: Is the iPhone better or worse than the Voyager, you really need to add "for X type of person, or for a person who values Y in a phone." Otherwise you end up in rather silly shouting and name-calling.

10. So figure out what you would likely use a phone for--given both your own history and the likelihood that you will be participating in the sorts of activities that people who use X feature do. Simply put, a great camera on a phone is worthless to someone who never bothers to take photos, and an amazingly hip and cool clubbing-sort-of-style won't make much difference to someone who prefers staying at home and watching movies.

There is no right answer, and there is always a right answer. You really need to figure out what you need, then find the phone that does this best.

Posted by: char777

Most of the people here aren't giving the iPhone a chance, and it seems as though many of them haven't used a Voyager, either.

I would say that it's the best phone I've ever owned. The interface is the best of any phone, regardless of standard UI or Verizon UI. It is incredibly intuitive. Voice quality is about the same as any other phone. Sure, there's no voice dial, but I don't understand why you'd want to do that. It is not a good phone to use on the road because you must look at it. Texting may seem hard, but it is surprisingly good at correction and prediction, even if you haven't broken it in. I don't understand why people are tying to compare EVDO to the iPhone if it had UMTS. The argument of EVDO vs. UMTS is not relevant. WiFi is amazing, and it's more ubiquitous than you may think. Still, EDGE is satisfactory for doing a simple Google. Safari is such a powerful web browser. It's still better than the speeds I had on T-Mobile. Music playback is amazing. I love how all of my music is with my phone, and I didn't have to buy an expensive memory card or spend a long time syncing my music. Music syncs from iTunes so quickly, and 1/4 of music on iTunes I believe can be purchased without DRM now and for the same price. I also have all my photos on it, which is great.

The touchscreen can be a bit frustrating at times, but that's a small price for such an intuitive phone that doesn't need a user's manual.

I can't speak for the Voyager because I haven't used it or owned it, nor will I attempt to speak for it.

Posted by: samsung.user

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzhik

iPhone = Vista
Voyager = Well Tune XP

. end of dicussion...

What this says to me is they both are bad. Doesn't surprise me the least that a verizon user said that. No freedom on phone or computer. Sucks.

The voyager is a really nice phone the way it feels and looks. The ui/software is bad. The browser was horrible. You were either able to have a "verizon optimized" version, or normal. The verizon version loaded pretty quickly but it was stripped down, and only about 1/5 the size of the normal page. Trying to load a full page just brought the phone to a crawl. It couldn't handle the full page. And navigating around the page was a pain too. Seemed impossible to select certain links. There was no mouse pointer, so you have to move the direction pad to highlight a link. It would just skip over certain links.

In my 20-30 minutes today at the verizon store I got to see a lot of people dealing with the sales people. People are so cheap its not even funny. They have no idea what they want when they walk into a store. When a salesman shows them a phone, they always say "do you have something cheaper?" Or, "what about the free phones I saw in your ad, where are they?" It seems that they think the salesman is trying to sell them the most expensive thing and they are really trying to get one up over the salesman by not accepting this expensive phone. They are going to have this phone for 2 years, buy something nice that you like. No wonder you hate your current phone, and you are going to hate the one you are buying too.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagabundus

7. Therefore, you should never believe that any company is telling you everything, and should never ever believe that any company is really out to make the world a better place--even if that means no profit.

8. All taken together, this means that the iPhone and the Voyager (and the other phones mentioned here) are each the products of different experts' vision for what will please more consumers, given the (unforeseen) circumstances of the product's life.

10. So figure out what you would likely use a phone for--given both your own history and the likelihood that you will be participating in the sorts of activities that people who use X feature do. Simply put, a great camera on a phone is worthless to someone who never bothers to take photos, and an amazingly hip and cool clubbing-sort-of-style won't make much difference to someone who prefers staying at home and watching movies.

7 and 8 completely conflict with each other. I quoted 10 because there's a conflict of information with phones and their users in regards to how they use them. How many people would buy a phone with a decent camera if they knew such technology even existed? A lot of people tout a certain phone as God's gift when they haven't included all of the competition to complete the comparison. As such, I suspect that's where more of the arguments and name calling come into place. I can't tell you how many times someone has argued that Phone B is better because of a certain feature when Phone A had the same feature years ago, but no one knew about it because their carrier didn't show them that phone when they came in looking for the phone that's free after rebate.

Posted by: char777

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

So does the quantity of features determine a good phone?

Posted by: JonnyBruha

No, absolutely not. It's a factor, but not the final determining factor. Among features, the lack of them are also important as well as the ease of use, which is where your favorite device both wins and loses.

Posted by: char777

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

No, absolutely not. It's a factor, but not the final determining factor. Among features, the lack of them are also important as well as the ease of use, which is where your favorite device both wins and loses.

I agree that you should have a phone that does a lot, but it is the relevance of them that moves a customer to purchase one. People will only choose a phone that works for them and works for them well.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

And that's exactly how they have so much of the market right now. I certainly don't blame them since the direct competition is so much different. As I mentioned, when I played with the Tilt, I would've much preferred to use an iPhone if I had a choice between only the two. That's why I urge everyone to try S60 for a week just to get the feel for it. It's certainly not perfect, but it's the best combination of features to usability between Apple and Windows Mobile and there's a reason I keep coming back to it.

Posted by: huskyfan23

I went from an N95 to a Tilt

Well, actually a TyTn II. The Tilt sucks

Posted by: char777

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

And that's exactly how they have so much of the market right now. I certainly don't blame them since the direct competition is so much different. As I mentioned, when I played with the Tilt, I would've much preferred to use an iPhone if I had a choice between only the two. That's why I urge everyone to try S60 for a week just to get the feel for it. It's certainly not perfect, but it's the best combination of features to usability between Apple and Windows Mobile and there's a reason I keep coming back to it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you, personally, use your phone? What purposes does it serve for you?

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by char777

Just out of curiosity, how do you, personally, use your phone? What purposes does it serve for you?

Everything, actually. I bought the N95 for a GPS because I didn't know my way around Georgia when I first moved here (and still don't since the Atlanta is much different from Chicago). I use it as my digital camera since my Sony Cybershot was lost in the move. I use it as my PC away from my PC for browsing the internet and handling my Yahoo email, and when my my PC took a dive a couple weeks ago, I used it exclusively with and without a Bluetooth keyboard as a temporary replacement. I've replaced my Zen entirely as both MP3 player and video player. I listen to my music with it in the car mostly and I convert movies to play through the TV out since my girlfriend and I don't really watch TV at all. The video function gets used the most because I keep all my favorite YouTube clips on it to show people on a TV or just the device itself or I'll use one of the various services to download a new one on demand. It's my organizer for everything. I use the calendar a lot for managing my schedule, setting alarms and reminders, to-do lists, and syncing all of it to Outlook. There are some other miscellaneous multimedia functions it serves as well. I use it to download music from my PC via SoonR or I use Symella if I don't have it on my PC. I also send and receive pictures, music, apps, themes, and videos to multiple people over either Bluetooth or email (depending on how far the person is from me at any given time). On a rare occasion, I'll have to edit a document that someone sends me on the fly and I can get it done without having to find a computer. It's about to become my remote control as well as soon as I find the time to track down the infrared codes for all my theater equipment. And of course, it's my phone, for managing calls, texts, and contacts. I haven't found a device or an operating system that I liked more, and I've played with everything at least once.

I've gotten a lot of people interested in doing new things on their phones as well. A couple years back, my buddy bought a 6630 and used it primarily for playing NES games in class and taking pictures of our awkward professor. Another friend of mine bought the 6620 several years ago and then bought my N70 when I was trying to sell it. He used the 6620 for the advanced phone handling more than anything else, but he grew into the N70 for the camera and video recording (2mp was unheard of at the time). My girlfriend bought an N73 to use as her digital camera (I'm surprised it still works at all after how many times she's dropped it). Her friend just picked up the 6120 to replace her L6 SLVR and she loves it.

Posted by: char777

Wow! I haven't heard of anybody who relies on their phone as much as you. I suppose S60 is the only thing that fits all of your needs, then.

Posted by: Myke3630

As an owner of both, I'd have to say that while the Voyager does have quite a few extra features and technically can do everything the iPhone can, I'd much prefer the iPhone any day of the week.

Posted by: manchuia

Quote:

Originally Posted by char777

Wow! I haven't heard of anybody who relies on their phone as much as you. I suppose S60 is the only thing that fits all of your needs, then.

you need to hang out in the S60 / Windows mobile forums more. Most of the things listed can be done on both platforms and are the key points to buying the high end devices.

This is why a number of those users.. the ones that normally drop $600+ on a phone were SOOOO angry at the limitations of the iphone, and why they view(ed) it as such a disappointing device.

Posted by: AirDogg923

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsung.user

In my 20-30 minutes today at the verizon store I got to see a lot of people dealing with the sales people. People are so cheap its not even funny. They have no idea what they want when they walk into a store. When a salesman shows them a phone, they always say "do you have something cheaper?" Or, "what about the free phones I saw in your ad, where are they?" It seems that they think the salesman is trying to sell them the most expensive thing and they are really trying to get one up over the salesman by not accepting this expensive phone. They are going to have this phone for 2 years, buy something nice that you like. No wonder you hate your current phone, and you are going to hate the one you are buying too.

you have spoken true words my friend.

Posted by: RogerPodacter

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchuia

i'll jump in and hijack the thread (sorry). but ii'm similar to johnnybrutha in usage. this n95-3 is about the center of my life pretty much. its just about a computer replacement, maybe 95% at least. it does everything from organizing my life, making calls, downloading music (even torrents), camera, gps, etc. pointless to go into everything. but its prob the best phone out on the market IMO. the tilt is good too.

about the iphone, i say get it if you are a beginner user or just only need the things it does, cause it does do them well. but for anyone who is more of a power user and likes to control what they do and experiment and customize, then the iphone is not the one to go for.

Posted by: Vagabundus

Why would a consumer ever get the idea that a salesperson might have the best interests of their company, rather than of the consumer, foremost in their thoughts?

There are, no doubt, intelligent, competent and committed cellphone salespeople. If you were, however, to take all of the telephone sales people and put them all in one huge space I believe there would be as many people in that room who only cared about getting the customer nailed down with a sale so they could get on to the next.

And wait! Do any cellphone people sell on commission? Are those commissions based on total number of units, or on dollars sold? Are accessories counted? Do employers sometimes offer "incentives" for employees who sell more of a particular phone that is being pushed at a given time?

Within the week I found myself in a cellphone store where both of the sales people on duty were obviously having to grit their teeth to have to work with the unwashed masses. When my turn finally came around, the sales person told me within thirty seconds exactly which phone "was right" for me. . .

At least it would have been if I were more like her and less like me. . .

It is sad when people cannot trust salespeople to guide them through the confusing and always-changing cellphone landscape. It is even more sad when people do automatically trust whoever the salesperson happens to be. . .

Posted by: Vagabundus

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

I don't see how 7 and 8 even directly relate to each other, let alone "completely conflict" unless you took me to mean that all companies have to put out the same product. Of course not. But companies do have to identify a reasonable target market and then sell them the product.

Good products take customer feedback into the loop, trying to figure out what parts of that feedback are most cogent and germane to the things they can change about their product, then work that feedback into a continuing cycle of product improvement.

The cellphone industry doesn't have that luxury. At least so far, it seems to be aimed at a relatively small part of the whole market, and is dependent primarily on buzz to sell phones.

Companies might get it right and sell a lot of phones, or get it wrong and trashcan the whole model, or get some things right and figure they can fix the biggest issues and still make a product affordable to its target market.

Of course this is all complicated by the fact that if North America is currently the largest market of cell phones and accessories, it won't be for long.

It's going to be hard for many Americans to get used to the idea that they will have to put up with some feature that makes the phone less usable, because that feature is demanded in China, but if you think marketing and look at the growth so far, and the growth potential of the industry in China, you know that day is not so far away.

And companies will do just that. Not because they like or don't like any particular people, but because that will be what produces the profits worldwide.

Fact is, most people don't get their cellphones from either a dedicated cell phone store or an online forum. Walmart or Circuit City salespeople might just not think it important to know everything about every phone when the only people who even ask those questions are going to buy online anyway. . .

Sure people will learn to need certain features. Thing is, they won't develop that need because of a one-time encounter with a salesperson, no matter how brilliant and omniscient. People will use the features their friends use. Some people will be out there trying new things to figure out which make sense, and many new uses get laughed right out the door. Most get no further than the level of "a cellphone camera can be cool because you always have it with you and can get great shots of the kids." Some never catch on. To a large extent it doesn't really turn on a technical capability.

We never needed a cell phone with us all of the time until the makers bought product placements, celebrity endorsements and media ads told us so. A few decades before, answering machines were expensive toys of eccentrics who never could really get them to record all of the incoming message, and whose callers/users recorded messages both confused and disoriented, never having needed to converse with a machine before.

There is a complex dance between features and needs for a particular product. You are, of course, absolutely correct when you say that often people make choices for apparently silly reasons. As far as marketing research can tell us even now, you've hit it right on the head. People do make choices of products for apparently silly reasons. Now, what are you going to tell them that will make them choose your phone?

Choose correctly and you'll be hailed as a genius. Pick poorly and no one will notice you. A theoretically solid reading of marketing research ends us distilling to "people buy for a lot of apparently strange reasons. . ."

No consumer can know everything they should about all the purchases they make; most of us who have the responsibilities of managing households need to figure out what's new with rice cookers, automobile motor oil, treadmill replacement rollers and the three new drugs their family's physician has just prescribed for the kids. . .

This doesn't even take into account the fact that most "heads of households" (singularly or collectively) have to keep up with a bunch of stuff about wherever they work, as well.

So people who are most knowledgeable about comparisons among cellphone networks and who gaze with keen patronizing survey of the ignorant people who don't know even what the differences are among the various phones, are some of the very ones the car mechanic laughs about after the shop doors close as the "idiot who thought cars put oil in themselves!" And the mechanics join the cell phone sales person as the butt of the joke when a city permits clerk can barely keep a straight face as she is asked, "What kind of permit do we need to remodel our house?"

We are all "idiots" if this is to mean "lacking direct knowledge of what fanatics believe about a product."

So those of us who survive with the fewest scars are the ones who are able to discern the difference between utterly important and mostly idiosyncratic features of some product. One of the first things people who make it into this elevated group is that you cannot always trust the sales person, or even the self-identified "expert."

Now how is that a conflict with any of my previous points? Have I missed something important?

Posted by: monkeyboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzhik

iPhone = Vista
Voyager = Well Tune XP

. end of dicussion...

lol, you have got to be kidding... either that, or you've just shown that there are at least 4 technology products you know nothing about...

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagabundus

(spare HoFo some bandwidth)

Wow, you really turned that inch into a mile pretty quick! Still, you made some very excellent points.

When I said 7 and 8 conflict, I meant that all these manufacturer's are not producing products to please the most customers. That would be too much of a stretch for what you said in number 7 (companies care only about maximizing profits). Cellular phones as an industry is broken down into a model (especially with carriers) that will maximize the profits, regardless of whether or not the customer will be pleased or not. Of course, the product has to be initially appealing and seemingly worth the money, but that's about as far as it goes. How many people still buy RAZR's, even though they have always had numerous problems with them? It may very well be the best selling phone (ever?) in the US, but it was absolutely far, far from the best in terms of reliability and features, and under no circumstances was it ever priced for what it was actually worth (even when it was free with contract). The iPhone is very close to that as well, but the evidence is much more blatant, such as the $200 price cut only a few months after launch and the constant restrictions in regards to ANYTHING that might take money out of Steve Job's pocket (which applies to most of Apple's products). Their main concern, as it is with any company, is to maximize profits. Even the very idea of trying to please the customer is an afterthought, since a perfect product never needs to be replaced, and would thus completely conflict with the goal of making the most money. (If any iPhone fanboys want me to rant about Nokia in regards to this, I shouldn't have to. The prices of the phones and the amount of time it has taken them to fix very well known issues should be evidence enough.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagabundus

We are all "idiots" if this is to mean "lacking direct knowledge of what fanatics believe about a product."

I certainly agree with you, but auto mechanics don't fit. Cell phones, a luxury, are unlike cars because almost everyone in the US needs one and needs it fixed when it breaks. It has nothing to do with being a fanatic or lacking product knowledge. When buying a car, this still applies, since it's still up to the consumer to research and decide which car to buy, regardless of what the salesperson says at the dealership, but a mechanic relies on the time constraint and the lack of knowledge of the person bringing in their car to be fixed to make as much money as they can. It has nothing to do with being passionate about cars.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzhik

iPhone = Vista
Voyager = Well Tune XP

. end of dicussion...

I admit, I have no idea what you're trying to say with this reference. There are many different viewpoints on both operating systems for this analogy to work effectively. Vista is newer, faster, visually appealing, but buggy and difficult for idiots to use, but XP is older, conditioned, becoming obsolete, but more stable?

I like Vista and have had zero problems with it, but I also know what the word "driver" means, so I guess I'm in the minority?

Posted by: char777

I don't think that analogy really made sense to anybody here.

Posted by: Zap2

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchuia

This is why a number of those users.. the ones that normally drop $600+ on a phone were SOOOO angry at the limitations of the iphone, and why they view(ed) it as such a disappointing device.

Source?

Most iPhone owners have been very happy with their iPhone, a report came out with iPhone owners at like 91% happy with their phones

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Here's your source.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

You won't find any of those people talking about it in the Apple forum because they get banned for it. Try to rally up all of the users in the 91% that have used other unlocked smartphones to their full extent and are still happy with their purchase. I would be part of the group that they weren't happy, but I didn't make the initial mistake of buying one in the first place..

Posted by: manchuia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zap2

Source?

Most iPhone owners have been very happy with their iPhone, a report came out with iPhone owners at like 91% happy with their phones

There are a some issues at hand with your reply.

1.) My statement was:

This is why a number of those users.. the ones that normally drop $600+ on a phone were SOOOO angry at the limitations of the iphone, and why they view(ed) it as such a disappointing device.

This is stating that people that NORMALLY drop $600 on a phone (before the iphone appeared) were angry at the feature limitations. I am not talking about people that stepped up to the plate and BEGAN purchasing a $600 phone when the iphone came out, but the early adopters, the tech heads, the GSM people that imported the Tmobile MDA when it was the Wizard. Those people are the ones that were disappointed because coming from what they already owned, the iphone was a technical downgrade of equal cost.

Your source is any non apple forum on this board. All the owners of GSM flagship phones (not even flagship, but I will use those as they often are comparative in price), have said the exact thing I am saying now:

"I have paide this much for a phone before, but aside from the UI and browser, the experience is sevely lacking for the cost"

2.) Now there are a totally different group of cell phone users thanks to the iphone. Those that took the plunge and have spent a large amount of money on a phone that is a major UPGRADE from the sub $300 phone they were using previously. I used the $300 number as even smartphones on carriers tend to top out at this and while it can be argued (competently) that coming from those phones might be a "downgrade" to the iphone, for this argument I will say at worst it's even (some good some bad).

These people are completely happy with the iphone as they came from inferior products. If you looked at another survery (forgot where, not really inclined to hunt it out) most of the people that "defected" to the iphone came from lower end / free phones and "clever" (not quite smart) phones (like the sidekick, helio ocean, blackberry products). This is an upgrade and I can definately see why these people would be happy with their iphone.

I don't dispute your numbers, and I am happy people are finding joy in using the product, but, it's harder to point out those that don't switch in a survery, but it's pretty apparent if you look at the winmo / S60 / blackberry / treo forums and see the ones that really want the iphone, but are waiting for the feature set to come around to the price point.

Posted by: Anisoul

To put the thread slight back on topic:
I've been an iPhone user since release and I have honestly grown very tired of it. I will also admit that the pretty interface and touch screen capabilites allowed me to put up with the horrible and inconsistent call quality. I would have five bars and callers would insist that all of their calls were being directed straight to voicemail. In addition, initially it didn't, but over time, the fact that I could send a text message to more than one person, REALLY bothered me. In the largest turn-off for me is the fact that Apple continues to find ways to make money off of you after your purchase; Here's my breakdown:

$399 plus applicable tax for the iPhone
$250 for service if anything happens
In the event that it's broken/lost/stolen, another $399 since insurance coverage is not an option.

I'm thinking about getting the Voyager as well because I'm completely disgusted with AT&T's service at this point and wanted to make a switch anyway. But it's your decision so please choose wizely and don't feed into hype.

Posted by: RogerPodacter

Anisoul, anything with iphone and service is the iphone's fault, not ATT. further, since it looks like you are in philly, philly has by far one of the best 3g coverage in the country. the network is beyond stellar there. everytime i fly back with my n95 the 3g is phenominal.

Posted by: Anisoul

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerPodacter

Anisoul, anything with iphone and service is the iphone's fault, not ATT. further, since it looks like you are in philly, philly has by far one of the best 3g coverage in the country. the network is beyond stellar there. everytime i fly back with my n95 the 3g is phenominal.

Maybe I should get an N95 then

Because the iPhone totally diappointed me. I can't believe I was apart of the FanFolk Parade.

Posted by: RogerPodacter

or just go with a 3g phone like the moto v3xx or something. sure n95-3 is one of the best, but its a lot of money. just try out another phone before jumping ship. you will be happy. and yeah, the iphone RF and call quality has not been good from what many people say. hardware problem.

Posted by: Anisoul

I had an N95 before, although I didn't have the US verision and it was slow. Maybe the N95 8gb is better suited this time around. Also, my other draw-back about the N95 is the lack of the QWERTY. I don't know. In the meantime, I'll continue to shop around.

Posted by: RogerPodacter

this is off the thread topic, but there is a att 3g n95 that supports 3.6mbps. Also the original n95 just had a monster firmware update yesterday which did wonders for the speed. The 8gb is not a good option as it doesn't support usa 3g. My point is there are many other phones and att network is great where you are, just the iphone might not show that. Good luck.

Posted by: manchuia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anisoul

<snip> I would have five bars and callers would insist that all of their calls were being directed straight to voicemail. <snip>

As the iphone uses data for a number of features, it is possible that you were using data when they were calling in. Edge data can't do calls and data transfer at the same time, so if you were pulling up a web page or a map and call came in, it would drop to voicemail.

This is true of ANY phone using edge data (not 3G) and is not an iphone specific problem.