iPhone Fraud

Originally Posted by fusiclover

I have a question regarding this... Being an employee for a competitor <which I've stated everytime i've posted in this forum> my question is what does it matter?

I know that you're paid per activation, somehow the phone is linked up to your sale when it's activated. And I could see where you wouldn't want to sell an iphone to a customer for that reason--but that being said, why is it fraud to purchase an iphone and not activate it? It's really no different than someone purchasing a wifi phone and using it strictly for pda functions and wifi internet.

I'm confused whenever I read posts accusing customers of fraudulent activity for purchasing iphones without activating them.

Like I said, this is just curiousity really, i'm not lambasting anyone for their remarks, it's just been something that was on my mind for awhile.

Originally Posted by classylady78

The thing is at AT&T we don't sell phones we sell service. We will not just sell someone a phone to go use on another network. The iphones, at times in my area have been low on supply. We are not going to give these phones to customers who are going to just use them elsewhere, when they could be used by our own customers as an activation or upgrade.

We do not get paid if someone purchases an iphone and never activates it, so it cuts into our commissions. I hope that answers your questions about it.

Originally Posted by dwboston

Uh, according to the President of your company, anyone can walk into any AT&T store and absolutely buy a phone at the "no-commitment" price. That sure sounds like selling phones to me.

Originally Posted by classylady78

That is assuming you are going to activate on our service. At any store I work at we will not sell a phone to someone who doesn't have service.

And the iphone has a 2 year contract.

Originally Posted by fusiclover

You wont even sell a phone at full retail to someone buying as a gift? See, there-in lies an issue... AT&T needs to pay you guys on phone sales without activation. We get paid for selling a phone on an upgrade, twice. Once for the phone sale, once for the upgrade. Its nice, even though it's not alot,due to 1yr upgrades that don't count as renewals because the customer still has a year left on contract, and for those who purchase phones at full retail for others or just for themselves.

Originally Posted by fusiclover

You wont even sell a phone at full retail to someone buying as a gift? See, there-in lies an issue... AT&T needs to pay you guys on phone sales without activation. We get paid for selling a phone on an upgrade, twice. Once for the phone sale, once for the upgrade. Its nice, even though it's not alot,due to 1yr upgrades that don't count as renewals because the customer still has a year left on contract, and for those who purchase phones at full retail for others or just for themselves.

Originally Posted by the_mighty_ear

Have you been getting customers that buy the iPhone and then finding out the phones never go active. I had a customer that I sold 2 phones to a week ago come in and he wanted to purchase 2 more. I happily informed him of the 2 phones per customer per lifetime policy we carry...(guy was a jerk, said he'd have my job for not selling him 3 the previous week) Anyways, turns out the guy bought 23 iphones in the course of a week. Best part about it....guy says he's an executive at a local news station and the phones were purchased for a technology segment airing last week.....never saw the segment air so I knew the guy was full of crap. Anyways, we noted the account and sent him on his marry way.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

Why do you consider buying the iPhone and not activating it 'fraud'? Who is being defrauded here? The iPhone is sold without subsidy or contract, how can you lose money when someone buys and does not activate it?

Originally Posted by ivwshane

It is against company policy to sell phones to dealers. The moment we find out your intentions of selling the phone for resale, we have the right to refuse to sell it to you.

Originally Posted by CellOne508

Why would an agent buy an I phone? We do not get paid for selling i phones and do not have an option in POS II to activate the I phone rate plans, if we can one day sell the I phone we will in fact be activating them in store you can be sure, this is the only way we could insure being paid a commission for the activation. Why would AT&T not require a customer to activate the phone in store?, it just makes no sense, this would insure the activation and that the phone is not being sold to be used on another network.
Cellone508

Originally Posted by ivwshane

The word "dealer" has more than one meaning, in this case "dealer" means anyone that is reselling the phone for financial gain.

Originally Posted by ivwshane

It is against company policy to sell phones to dealers. The moment we find out your intentions of selling the phone for resale, we have the right to refuse to sell it to you.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

Against company policy is not the same thing fraud. Obviously if you have direct knowledge that someone is buying iPhones to unlock it is the reps job to decline the sale.

However attitude, interest in the firmware version of the iPhone, ethnicity, knowledge of iPhone rate plans, gender and the form of payment used do not in any way constitute evidence that someone will be unlocking the iPhone. It is not the reps job to play detective with the iPhone customers that come into their store. Reading some of the posts in this thread it seems many people have forgotten that.

Apple is producting the iPhone in great volume, I know that none of the stores in my area are anywhere near running out. The OP would be better served by getting iPhone sales out the door as fast as company policy allows and focus on his metrics then playing iPhone police.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

Because apple doesnt want a traditional "cell phone store" experience for its iPhone customers. They want their customers to pick it up and seemlessly set it up in the comfort of their own home. Since apple has AT&T by the balls they call the shots here.

I thought that was obvious from the moment the iPhone was launched?

Originally Posted by CellOne508

The only thing that is obvious is that Apple has AT&T by the balls and being it's _ _ _ _ _ ! Verizon didn't want to play ball with apple but AT&T had no problem lubing up and bending over for Apple, humata, humata, humata, be gentle daddy!

Cellone508

Originally Posted by bryanharig

Because apple doesnt want a traditional "cell phone store" experience for its iPhone customers. They want their customers to pick it up and seemlessly set it up in the comfort of their own home...

I thought that was obvious from the moment the iPhone was launched?

Originally Posted by ATnt-RSC

Total ********. Apple wanted to make sure everyone with an iphone had an itunes account to go with it. Those 10 freebie songs can quickly lead to a couple of singles, then whole albums. They want to drive more revenue. And letting Apple pull this crap was the worst of the raping old Satan Sigman allowed to happen. It lead to all this "fraud" and a huge black market for iPhones.

The "comfort of their own home" line was and is a horrible lie and remains one of the worst things Apple has done to its customers. Average Joe has no business activating his own phone, and in general, he knows that. The people that do think they can do it are the ones that activate 3 lines on Nation 2000 plans instead of one Family 2100, all with the wrong data plan.

Originally Posted by ATnt-RSC

Total ********. Apple wanted to make sure everyone with an iphone had an itunes account to go with it. Those 10 freebie songs can quickly lead to a couple of singles, then whole albums. They want to drive more revenue. And letting Apple pull this crap was the worst of the raping old Satan Sigman allowed to happen. It lead to all this "fraud" and a huge black market for iPhones.

The "comfort of their own home" line was and is a horrible lie and remains one of the worst things Apple has done to its customers. Average Joe has no business activating his own phone, and in general, he knows that. The people that do think they can do it are the ones that activate 3 lines on Nation 2000 plans instead of one Family 2100, all with the wrong data plan.

Originally Posted by lowkey16

the reason we don't get paid for selling the phone is you then have reps trying to push higher dollar phones on people instead of selling the customer the phone that best suits them. but i have always said that when we sell a phone at full retail we should get paid something, even if it were paid just like an accessory which pays 4%...right now we have reps that will do and say anything to get out of selling a customer a phone if they're not activating or upgrading because they feel it's a waste of time and keeping them from making money

Originally Posted by bryanharig

??? It isnt a matter of 'making sure they had an itunes account'. You have to have an itunes account to sync the phone. Of course Apple wants to encourage use of their store, thats why it is the only one supported on any ipod or iphone. I am not sure how that is some kind of trick or 'crap', it is just business.

The idea of iphone customers being special and being able to bypass the 'poor instore experience' by activating in the comfort of their own homes is an huge part of Job's 'vision' for the iPhone. Believe it or not. Apple is willing to accept the issues that go along with in home activation in order to provide what they think it a far superior unboxing experience for their buyers.

I am sure everyone here has seen issues with iPhone customers who screwed up their own activations, but the fact remains that on a whole iPhone customers are more satisfied with their experience than any other group of customers.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

Surveys have consistently shown declining customer satisfaction with their in store wireless sales experience over the past few years. It isnt a matter of your store or my store, it is a nationwide trend among customers of every carrier.

I dont completely agree with Apple on the idea of taking activations out of carrier stores (though they have a great track record lately) but if you listen to what Job's says about the iPhone it is clear that this is not Kool-Aid, it is what Apple believes.

It is speculated that apple makes $9-$18 per month from AT&T for each iphone customer. Over a 24 month contract that is more then 'measly money'. They want that money, otherwise they would have just sold the iPhone unlocked from apple stores and apple.com.

Originally Posted by ivwshane

I will disagree that customer service for carriers is declining. In fact at&t recently moved up a notch in their customer service scores.

Originally Posted by ivwshane

In any event, the iphone activation process is not as rewarding as being able to walk out of a store with a working phone.

Originally Posted by cingman66

I'm not sure I agree with "speculation" as far as how much Apple makes on each activation...your numbers sound very high.

Originally Posted by New York Times

Gene Munster, an analyst at the Wall Street firm Piper Jaffray, has tried to do the math.
His bottom line is rather shocking: AT&T appears to be paying $18 a month, on average, to Apple for each iPhone activated on its network. That adds up to $432 over a two year contract. In other words, Apple will receive $831 for each iPhone it sells. (It’s a little less for iPhones sold in AT&T stores.) He can’t tell, of course, what makes up that average. Apple may, for example, receive higher payments for customers new to AT&T or those who buy more expensive monthly plans.
Mr. Munster says he was surprised by the numbers. He previously had estimated that Apple received $6.50 a month from AT&T. A carrier will typically subsidize the price of a high-end phone by about $200, he says. With the iPhone, AT&T is spreading the payments out over time, but ultimately putting up twice the typical amount.

Originally Posted by cingman66

...

They clearly make much more on iTunes sales and whatever else Job's has planned for that phone (which can be purchased from Apple--not AT&T). They (Apple) must have known that eventually somebody would figure out how to unlock the iPhone, and that people would be buying them to use on different networks and in different countries. Expecting the iPhone to be totally locked down for use solely on AT&T's network is foolish. Therefore, with that knowledge, I believe Apple derives most of their revenue from phone sales and accessory sales (iTunes, cases, chargers, etc.), and NOT from the AT&T activation of the phone. It's like any game system...sell the hardware cheap and rape people on the software...AT&T just factors in as a mule to help deliver the phone to the people, and provide the phone service to some of the people. I'm sure Apple makes just as much money down the road if the phone gets activated on T-Mobile...they just made the agreement with AT&T because they needed a legitimate "network" to be associated with for the phone service.

Originally Posted by cingman66

...
They clearly make much more on iTunes sales and whatever else Job's has planned for that phone (which can be purchased from Apple--not AT&T). They (Apple) must have known that eventually somebody would figure out how to unlock the iPhone, and that people would be buying them to use on different networks and in different countries. Expecting the iPhone to be totally locked down for use solely on AT&T's network is foolish.
...
I'm sure Apple makes just as much money down the road if the phone gets activated on T-Mobile...they just made the agreement with AT&T because they needed a legitimate "network" to be associated with for the phone service.

Originally Posted by ivwshane

Considering most people don't know the difference between a dealer and a cor store I'd say you would have to take the numbers with a grain of salt.

Having said that, at&t is improving as a whole.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...7D&siteid=yhoof

Originally Posted by bryanharig

Apple does not agree with you. More importently the vast majority of iPhone customers dont agree with you. People like setting up their own acount and avoiding the store. It makes them feel special. If it seems that everyone you talk to has problems, remember that for every person with an issue there are 4 or 5 more you never hear from because they are completely satisfied with the purchase and the inhome activation experience. As per:

Change Wave's Oct 2 Survey:





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They arnt my numbers, that is the range the Wall Street analysists have arrived at.







You have it backwards, itunes exists to drive hardware sales. Not the other way around.

PacificCrest Securities analyst Andy Hargreaves released a report in April showing only 10% gross profit per itunes track.



compare that to profit per iPhone under the likely terms of the AT&T deal.



It would take a lot of iTunes tracks and accessories to exceed that profit.

Apple has always made their money on hardware, itunes exists only to make it easy for people to go all digital and kep them locked to apple hardware. iTunes profits have always been slim.

Now Apple is not only making a good profit on the iPhone hardware ($400 price vs $265 cost) they are making even more from AT&T ($12-18/month per iPhone) and they are also making a small profit on iTunes tracks downloaded.



I am sure you can see now just what apple loses when phones are unlocked and used on another network. Of the 3 sources of profit they lose the largest when an unlocked phone is used on another carrier.

Originally Posted by FormerRuling

AT&T improves and Sprint Lags I can believe.

They love to Blind-Transfer you or put you on Mute and hang up when you try to Escalate, and even when you do get a rep that will even listen to your problem their Out-sourced centers don't even have access to make the changes we need done - They have to "Submit a ticket to Teir2" to do simple things like make changes at Npac, which is why I have a direct line to their "teir2" (IE: American's with access to Npac) -

Originally Posted by bryanharig

Surveys have consistently shown declining customer satisfaction with their in store wireless sales experience over the past few years. It isnt a matter of your store or my store, it is a nationwide trend among customers of every carrier.
...

Originally Posted by mch

The way the salespeople who work in the stores are incentivized has a lot to do with this. The consequence is that the customer usually needs to watch the sales process like a hawk to avoid somehow ending up walking out with some sort of bundled accessory kit and some pseudo-feature like "Roadside assistance."

As a customer of various carriers, I do everything online now. The in store sales experience is horrible.

Originally Posted by mch

The way the salespeople who work in the stores are incentivized has a lot to do with this. The consequence is that the customer usually needs to watch the sales process like a hawk to avoid somehow ending up walking out with some sort of bundled accessory kit and some pseudo-feature like "Roadside assistance."

As a customer of various carriers, I do everything online now. The in store sales experience is horrible.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

That was one of the key points of the survey. The customers satisfaction with the transaction declined in inverse proportion to the amount of pressure they felt during the sale. This was universal among the 4 major carriers.

It is just a sign of the coming extinction their business model. As the market nears saturation and the service offered by the major carriers becomes more and more equivelent they must sieze every scrap of revenue they can. Be that by cutting pay or encouraging slamming with a wink and a nod. It is the nature of entrenched businesses to fight change every step of the way, kicking and screaming as they are flushed down the drain by progress. (see also: the MPAA and RIAA)

Obviously in the long run they will fail and as wireless service becomes a commodity people will start to care less and less about who is providing their wireless service. In a way the iphone is an early example of this. Its customers couldnt have cared less what network it ran on. The carriers see this on the horizon and are trying to take baby steps to protect themselves over the next 10 years, thus Verizons plans for an open LTE network and Sprint's plans for an open WIMAX network. AT&T may have recently claimed to have 'the most open network' but of the big 3 I feel they will be hit the hardest and suffer the most.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

LTE or wimax it isnt the technology that is going to save them. I am not talking about next quarter or even next year. I am talking 2015 when your wireless bill is like your landline used to be. Unlimited, flat rate with devices you chose and used for every form of connctivity.

Verizon and Sprint are laying the ground work for that kind of open network now. No matter what technology AT&T deploys they are stuck looking backwards in that respect, backwards to a carrier controlled walled garden of content and restriced devices.

As for Sprint, they say once you hit bottom there is nowhere to go but up. Despite the awful managment they have the strongest position in wireless data with tons of spectrum and a powerful underlying network. If they find a good CEO I am confident they can be a player again.

Originally Posted by ivwshane

Laying the ground work? You mean like fiber to the home which is what at&t is currently doing?

And what about at&t is restricted? Do they have a 5GB limit for their data plans? Can you not use any compatible gsm phone on their network? Can you not install and run whatever app you want on your phone (provided it's compatible). Exactly what ports does at&t block?

What restricted content and devices are you referring to?

I think you have it backwards, at&t is far from restricting.

Originally Posted by fusiclover

I have a question regarding this... Being an employee for a competitor <which I've stated everytime i've posted in this forum> my question is what does it matter?

I know that you're paid per activation, somehow the phone is linked up to your sale when it's activated. And I could see where you wouldn't want to sell an iphone to a customer for that reason--but that being said, why is it fraud to purchase an iphone and not activate it? It's really no different than someone purchasing a wifi phone and using it strictly for pda functions and wifi internet.

I'm confused whenever I read posts accusing customers of fraudulent activity for purchasing iphones without activating them.

Like I said, this is just curiousity really, i'm not lambasting anyone for their remarks, it's just been something that was on my mind for awhile.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

I refer more to their stance on network neutrality issues. Both Sprint and Vzw seem to realize that in the future they will be functioning as a common carrier. I am not sure if At&t has accepted that. Look at the former AT&T CEO Ed Whitacre's comments on the issue for one example.

Originally Posted by bryanharig

LTE or wimax it isnt the technology that is going to save them. I am not talking about next quarter or even next year. I am talking 2015 when your wireless bill is like your landline used to be. Unlimited, flat rate with devices you chose and used for every form of connctivity.

Verizon and Sprint are laying the ground work for that kind of open network now. No matter what technology AT&T deploys they are stuck looking backwards in that respect, backwards to a carrier controlled walled garden of content and restriced devices.

As for Sprint, they say once you hit bottom there is nowhere to go but up. Despite the awful managment they have the strongest position in wireless data with tons of spectrum and a powerful underlying network. If they find a good CEO I am confident they can be a player again.

Originally Posted by classylady78

What are you talking about? Verizon and Sprint are CDMA (well Nextel is iDen). GSM is what the world is using. So, my money would be on carriers like AT&T or T-Mobile because GSM is worldwide.

Originally Posted by classylady78

What are you talking about? Verizon and Sprint are CDMA (well Nextel is iDen). GSM is what the world is using. So, my money would be on carriers like AT&T or T-Mobile because GSM is worldwide.

Again, you don't even have AT&T, you are posting here because???

Originally Posted by iam4161987

i have three iphones left in stock, and joe-bob-unlock comes into my store and wants 2 iphones that he is going to "give as a gift" i sell both. 2 hours later Ms. I-wanna-be-a-great-mom wants to buy her son and daughter iphones for christmas. i only have one. she says that instead she will try another store where she can just buy them at the same time. (AND I HAVE HAD THIS COMPLAINT) and i get nothing. att gets nothing. apple gets nothing, and my bank account gets nothing.