vB Easy Archive - Want a new Super, not Smart, Phone

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Want a new Super, not Smart, Phone
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Posted by: TechnoCat

I'm in the market for a new phone to replace my V3xx, which has been mostly fine but is wearing out. I'm out-of-contract but would rather get a non-crippled phone as long as it supports AT&T's frequencies.

What I need:

AT&T 850MHz GSM Band. And European GSM bands.
Around $850 or less unlocked. AT&T cripples phones too much for me to tolerate another locked one.
Memory card slot.
QVGA or better.
Small form-factor. I carry the phone in a pocket often, and I'm on the slim side.
J2ME Program support.
Contact/Calendar sync to PC capability. (Extra cost is okay.)

What I want but can bend on:

Ability to run two J2ME programs at once, one in the background or suspended. The V3xx does not support this, but I think the Nokias might.
Flip phone (or possibly slider). I like having the screen protected - I'm rough on phones - and the larger screen this allows.
Mac iCal compatible. I keep appointments on my Mac, not my PC.
Stable phone software. It shouldn't lock up or require reboots. (e.g. the N75 when it came out, and too many WinCE phones too often.)

Things I don't care about:

Stereo/MP3. I have and will continue to use an iPod for that.
Camera. Really, it just doesn't matter. Every phone seems to have one, but there's no difference to us between great, mediocre and none.
S60 or WinCE/Mobile. Actually, I would very much prefer to avoid Windows of any sort. I've done commercial development on it and just don't want it. And since my J2ME apps (including those I've personally written) do TCP/IP communications, encryption, database and sync with a P.C., I don't need the current definition of "smart". (And am well ahead of the original classic definition for a phone.)

I'm wide open on brands. Lastly, I hate this forum software. At least with Opera, any "list" replaces all the text you have already composed!

Suggestions?

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Save yourself $350 off your budget and grab an N95-3. Going down your list, it's quadband GSM for Europe and North America (and it has 850/1900 UMTS for North American 3G), you can pick it up for $500 unlocked, it has a microSD slot (with support for microSDHC up to 32gb), it has a QVGA screen, it's smaller than most higher end phones on the market (there's no way to pack all of the features into a RAZR style phone), it supports multiple Java apps simultaneously, syncing to your PC is free (and wireless if need be), it's a slider, there's a plugin for iCal if I'm not mistaken, and it doesn't lock up nearly as much as other S60 devices.

Also, as far as the camera is concerned, when you have a phone with a decent camera, you will see the difference. The N95-3 and the N82 were the first phones I've used that struck me as cameras that make calls more than phones that have cameras as an afterthought.

Even if you don't use the GPS or the MP3 player, it's more than worth the cost for everything you get out of it, and having those features anyway, you might just find a use for them.

Posted by: TechnoCat

Thanks. The N95 looks pretty rocking. I'm a bit confused by all the N95 models though. Is the new 8GB N95 for the U.S. - $750 price (okay), WiFi, etc. - a newer version or the same thing? $750 is in my range but is a lot more than $500. Did I find the wrong thing?

Thanks!

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Yes, you did. I was talking about this one.
http://www.buy.com/prod/nokia-n95-u.../205814244.html

The 8gb is excellent also, but it doesn't have 3G for North America or a memory card slot. You're limited to just that 8gb of internal storage. If you still want to pick it up, these guys usually have it at a decent price.
http://www.mobilecityonline.com/wir...productid=22553

Posted by: TechnoCat

Ah, thanks. The 3G is essential for me. If you don't mind, could you please verify we're talking the same thing? The link I posted says,

Quote:

Today in Las Vegas, Nevada at the Consumer Electronics Show, Nokia has introduced a special version of the popular N95 8GB, this time supporting AT&T's 3G HSDPA network.

Is that incorrect? Thanks.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Check the S60 forums for a sticky I posted about the variations between the four different versions. The one you're reading about (N95-4) has both 8gb and supports North American HSDPA, but it isn't out yet. The 8gb that's out now is the N95-2 with 8gb and HSDPA for Europe. If you can wait a week or so, the N95-4 should be out on the 6th if I remember correctly. You can preorder it from mobilecityonline.com as well.

Posted by: TechnoCat

Oh! Woo Hoo! I can wait a week! (Or even a month, no problem!)

That sounds worth the wait and $100. Will go look for your thread.

Posted by: RogerPodacter

yeah i think i may be upgrading to the n95-4 from the my n95-3 when it comes out! and you cant go wrong with either n95 version, as long as you get the one with ATT 3G frequencies, which is a must for me. its a power house phone that can do anything you could want. just hang around the s60 forum to find out all the good apps and stuff to use for it.

oh and n95-3 is just as good and its cheaper at 489USd. the upcoming 8GB just has a slightly larger screen and is all black. you could save money and go for the -3. all the features are identical.

Posted by: TechnoCat

I understand you covered them somewhat, but just want to make sure I've got it all. The effective differences between the 95-3 and 95-4 are:

Larger Screen (from the RAZR line I consider a miniscule 0.2" to be significant)
10MB more usable (available) RAM at boot. Does this matter?
8GB storage vs. a microSD memory card slot limited to 2GB. Is internal RAM also faster, or just larger? What kind of media player system is limited to so little space?
Black vs Silver case. (Don't care either way.)
Demand Paging (does this matter with 80MB free?)
Smaller D-Pad

Are the screens, other than size, equivalent in brightness and saturation?

And lastly the 8GB phone is expected out this week?

Thanks.

Posted by: bachviet

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnoCat

I understand you covered them somewhat, but just want to make sure I've got it all. The effective differences between the 95-3 and 95-4 are:

Larger Screen (from the RAZR line I consider a miniscule 0.2" to be significant)
10MB more usable (available) RAM at boot. Does this matter?
8GB storage vs. a microSD memory card slot limited to 2GB. Is internal RAM also faster, or just larger? What kind of media player system is limited to so little space?
Black vs Silver case. (Don't care either way.)
Demand Paging (does this matter with 80MB free?)
Smaller D-Pad

Are the screens, other than size, equivalent in brightness and saturation?

And lastly the 8GB phone is expected out this week?

Thanks.

Memory card is expendable up to 32GB (microSDHC) for the N95-1/N95-3. Transferring to and/from removable memory is faster with USB 2.0 card reader.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnoCat

Larger Screen (from the RAZR line I consider a miniscule 0.2" to be significant)
10MB more usable (available) RAM at boot. Does this matter?
8GB storage vs. a microSD memory card slot limited to 2GB. Is internal RAM also faster, or just larger? What kind of media player system is limited to so little space?
Black vs Silver case. (Don't care either way.)
Demand Paging (does this matter with 80MB free?)
Smaller D-Pad

Are the screens, other than size, equivalent in brightness and saturation?
And lastly the 8GB phone is expected out this week?

-Yes, screen is larger, but same QVGA resolution.
-Yes, a bit more RAM, but you'll never see the difference.
-8gb for the N95-2 and N95-4, but the N95-1 and N95-3 support SDHC cards up to 32gb. RAM has nothing to do with storage on any of these phones.
-You are correct on the color variants.
-Demand paging will load applications faster and make the phone start up quicker, but the difference isn't that dramatic. The biggest software difference is that the N95-2/4 supports Flash Lite 3 in the browser, so you can watch YouTube videos from YouTube's website in the browser. There are other applications that handle YouTube videos much better, however.
-Yes, buttons under the screen are smaller.
-I've read that the 8gb is brighter, but I've never used one right next to my N95-3.
-And yes, the N95-4 is expected out sometime in the beginning of this month. mobilecityonline expects it within the next couple days.

Posted by: TechnoCat

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

Thanks. "Same resolution" is expected; at a given resolution with my eyes, size is better.
I'm confused about the memory cards. NewEgg doesn't seem to have micro-SDHC cards larger than 8GB. And those are running $80. How much is a 32GB microSD card?

Posted by: RogerPodacter

32GB arent out yet, but 16GB will be out this summer.

Posted by: EChid

Just in case you decide not to to go the N95 route, might I suggest the Motorola RAZR 2 V9 (for HSDPA) or the RAZR 2 V8 (for the better interface). Both fit your requirements fully (and are flip phones) and they are more compact than the N95, plus they are hundreds below the cost of an N95-3. Just a thought, since you specified that you didn't want a smartphone.

Posted by: bachviet

Quote:

Originally Posted by EChid

Just in case you decide not to to go the N95 route, might I suggest the Motorola RAZR 2 V9 (for HSDPA) or the RAZR 2 V8 (for the better interface). Both fit your requirements fully (and are flip phones) and they are more compact than the N95, plus they are hundreds below the cost of an N95-3. Just a thought, since you specified that you didn't want a smartphone.

No memory card slot in the V8 and the V9 still uses the old Synergy OS, which sucks IMHO.

Posted by: TechnoCat

Quote:

Originally Posted by EChid

Thanks. Generally good input, but I'm on something like my 3rd RAZR variant. The V3xx is good, but crippled beyond redemption with lockdowns of J2ME access to bluetooth and to the file system, prevention of bluetooth datebook sync, and of course only being able to run one J2ME program at a time (not a cripple issue.) Since the AT&T frequency version was an AT&T/Cingular exclusive, getting an unlocked one wasn't an option. I've been decently happy with it, but want to move beyond the limitations now. I'm not sure the V9, especially as crippled by AT&T, will get me there.

Plus the V9 isn't significantly smaller than the N95; it's wider but thinner and within 2% of the same mass. And a 2.8" screen is a lot bigger than a 2.2". I used to be a big Moto fan, but they seem too much in-bed with the carriers and stuck in the RAZR mindset for now.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

I'd hardly qualify any RAZR as a "superphone" also. Motorola hasn't really done anything to compete with the higher end phones on the market.

Once you use an S60, there's really no going back. One of my first phones was a Moto back in the day and I bought a bunch of Nokias and tried another Moto for a bit, but even then, when I wasn't using a smartphone from Nokia, there wasn't any competition. I bought my first S60 after that, and never looked back. To go back to a Moto, even their flagship model, would be way too many steps back from most of the phones I've used in the past couple years.

Posted by: EChid

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

I'd hardly qualify any RAZR as a "superphone" also. Motorola hasn't really done anything to compete with the higher end phones on the market.

Once you use an S60, there's really no going back. One of my first phones was a Moto back in the day and I bought a bunch of Nokias and tried another Moto for a bit, but even then, when I wasn't using a smartphone from Nokia, there wasn't any competition. I bought my first S60 after that, and never looked back. To go back to a Moto, even their flagship model, would be way too many steps back from most of the phones I've used in the past couple years.

On the other hand, anything besides an N95-3 would never qualify as a "superphone." And btw, I went S60, and then went elsewhere so its not the be all and end all of OS's.

The V8 is good (if you don't want/need HSDPA) because the models are unlocked and have excellent screen quality and excellent voice quality (crystal talk). They are stable and capable. They also have a good (new) UI. I find once you get into the land of any smartphone, you need to be ready for at least some battery pulls and resets, S60 included. Just be aware, with greater abilities comes great instability, at least in my experiance. If you're good with the odd frustration or annoyance, then smart phone it is.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Quote:

Originally Posted by EChid

On the other hand, anything besides an N95-3 would never qualify as a "superphone."

Sure there is. It just depends on what flavor you're looking for. Motorola just doesn't have anything that really competes. I'd also throw in the Tilt, N82, the Viewty, G800, G810, and even the iPhone, depending on preference.

It just so happens that S60 has the best combination of features and functionality. I'd agree that everything else doesn't fully qualify next to the N95-3, but it's not a landslide. You can cut corners on what features you're looking for and find yourself with one of those other devices, but you'd have to cut a LOT of corners to end up with a V9.

Posted by: TechnoCat

What I meant by "superphone", and why I distinguished it from "smartphone", is...

A superphone does a lot of stuff that a phone doesn't - good web, multiple J2ME apps, streaming media, perhaps stored media, possibly WiFi... things that the current definition of "smartphone" is irrelevant to.

The "current" definition of "smartphone" appears to be, "runs S40, S60, RIM, WinCE or Linux". This is, in my opinion, a terrible perversion of the original concept of a smartphone, which I've written about on HoFo before; there is no clear line as to what a smartphone can do that a J2ME/data-enabled feature phone can't, and most current feature phones are far smarter than a smartphone from five years ago. But since I'm ambivalent about Nokia's OS and despise WinCE, my point was that I wanted the extra features beyond a typical high-end feature phone but don't care that it be a "smartphone".

Since it looks like it will be the N95-4 when it comes out, I'll get one anyhow. Fine. But it wasn't the goal.

Posted by: EChid

True, but it is one of the few remotely attractive clamshells out there. The only other highend one that comes to mind is the N75, and well, lets just say...no. If the goal is to protect the screen (a la typical clamshell) then sliders like the aforementioned Samsungs and Nokia's will do little, except protect the keyboard. Besides, it depends on how you define "superphones." There are a lot of nice Samsungs out there, but I've found Sammy to have pretty rubbish reception, the Tilt has more stability issues than S60 and the N82 is a lamer version of the N95 IMO. As for the viewty and iPhone, touchscreens aren't conducive to rough handling. The RAZR 2 series isn't necessarily MY superphone, but my thought was that its features might have made it a bit of a superphone for the OP. I do agree with his comment on mass though, its not that small. The thinness will make it more tight clothes friendly though.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

I think you're starting to skew the definition of superphone (though said definition wasn't established until a couple posts ago). I described the N95-3 for its robust feature set overall, which are focused on media and the like. Features like GPS, 5mp camera, VGA video recording with TV-out, HSDPA+awesome web browser, WLAN, and all the other nice things that go along with S60 made it stand out to me as a superphone, since there are very few other phones that even come close to packing all of that into the same package.

As for what you're talking about, attractiveness, screen protection, reception, stability, and durability are all kinda their own category unrelated to what makes a superphone. Well, reception is important, but that's for any phone.

Don't knock on the N82. The screen may not be as bright and the keypad sucks, but the camera puts my N95-3 to shame.

Posted by: EChid

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBruha

I think you're starting to skew the definition of superphone (though said definition wasn't established until a couple posts ago). I described the N95-3 for its robust feature set overall, which are focused on media and the like. Features like GPS, 5mp camera, VGA video recording with TV-out, HSDPA+awesome web browser, WLAN, and all the other nice things that go along with S60 made it stand out to me as a superphone, since there are very few other phones that even come close to packing all of that into the same package.

As for what you're talking about, attractiveness, screen protection, reception, stability, and durability are all kinda their own category unrelated to what makes a superphone. Well, reception is important, but that's for any phone.

Don't knock on the N82. The screen may not be as bright and the keypad sucks, but the camera puts my N95-3 to shame.

Okay, lets agree on the fact that superphone is what the buyer decides it is. For me its features like wifi and GPS, umpteen MP cam etc., but more importantly, the ability not to frustrate me with resets (Touch), or a phone that runs out of memory (E61), or dropped or missed calls (D600, N75). I know it seems simplistic, but in my area its not. That, I guess, is the idea of separation between a smartphone and a superphone for me. Oh, and lets not forget about battery life. These days, its nearly impossible to find a phone that works in WiFi, GPS, multitasking and such without heading to a smartphone though.

In conclusion, the N95-3 is a pricey, though capable, phone. I just wish Nokia put $500 worth of build quality and materials into their phones.

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Oh, you've only used an E61 and an N75? No wonder you went back to something else. Neither of those phones are running FP1 and neither had enough RAM to keep up with all the features they had built in.

I agree about the build quality, but it's not THAT bad.

Posted by: bachviet

If you are going to spend $300 for a V8/V9, you might as well get the Nokia 6500 Slide. The S40v5 OS is pretty sweet and it's a very sweet features-packed phone.

Posted by: TechnoCat

Neat discussion! Pricey isn't much of an issue to me. I've been annoyed with every locked-down phone I've purchased from Cingular/AT&T anyhow, and once looking at FMV (fair market value) for a phone, expectations change.

I would have preferred flip to protect the screen, but the N95-4 is so close to perfect in other ways that it is my current plan, as soon as it actually is released.

Posted by: TechnoCat

Since the N95-4 isn't out so I'm waiting either way... what about the Samsung G810? How does it theoretically compare? Rumored better build quality, less useful GPS software, smaller screen - what else should I know?

Posted by: JonnyBruha

Biggest drawback I'm seeing to the G810 is the lack of not only 3G for AT&T, but it also doesn't have 850 GSM. The N95-4 also at least has the privilege of having a near identical model already available so you know what to expect, whereas the Samsung is brand new entirely. Who knows how well it'll carry itself.

Posted by: TechnoCat

Ah, well, losing high speed and some GSM coverage on AT&T is a killer for me. Guess the G810 isn't quite all there.