vB Easy Archive - Is Apple loosing it, no real time GPS ?

Pages: 1

Is Apple loosing it, no real time GPS ?
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: yozh

WOW is apple loosing it, why put a GPS in to device and then not allow anyone to build apps for it ?

http://gizmodo.com/5015389/iphone-s...nd-saving-lives

I was really looking forward to TOMTOM to running on that thing WTF ?????????????

Posted by: pgood

Sounds more like legal CYA than anything. It would definitely seem odd for them to eliminate this capability unless they have some strange agreement with google.

Posted by: Clipse

Quote:

Originally Posted by yozh

WOW is apple loosing it, why put a GPS in to device and then not allow anyone to build apps for it ?

http://gizmodo.com/5015389/iphone-s...nd-saving-lives

I was really looking forward to TOMTOM to running on that thing WTF ?????????????

I think you misread. Companies that are actual GPS DEVS can do it. But no joe schmoe off the street who can make a program turn by turn and have you fall off a bridge and sue Apple....

Posted by: samab

No, it means that TomTom cannot make a real time GPS navigation product out of the iphone SDK and sell it as such.

Sure TomTom can make the product according to the SDK --- they just can't sell it. But it's no point for them to even develop a product that they can't even market or sell (even for free).

Posted by: yozh

None of this make any sense, why would you put GPS in and not allow people to use it. There is 1 explanation they have an agreement with some 3rd party vendor to make it and they want to corner the market with just that software or they are making 1 them selfs. Also why would TomTom say that they have a working copy of the software for the iPhone if Apple prohibit it ?

Posted by: ez2remember

I certainly hope this is not true.

3G iPhone I was coming to you but now...

I really just wonder what's next? Will they restrict and control all 3rd party software developements? I would like to see a new media player such as coreplayer but if they stop this because they feel it's a threat to their business then...

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by yozh

Also why would TomTom say that they have a working copy of the software for the iPhone if Apple prohibit it ?

Remember Sun and Adobe announced java and flash on the iphone --- and then found out that the SDK doesn't allow it.

Posted by: yozh

Quote:

Originally Posted by samab

Remember Sun and Adobe announced java and flash on the iphone --- and then found out that the SDK doesn't allow it.

True I forgot about that one.

I really dont understand whats going thru apples head, why even put GPS in ? I bet Garmin is happy, that Nuvi phone is looking better by a minute

Posted by: AnyMal

I think it's quite simple. Apple wll be/is working on own version of GPS software.

Posted by: Saoirse1916

Or it means that if you want to develop GPS applications you have to work out a special arrangement with Apple -- as Clipse said, Apple doesn't want just any boob making a mapping program that guides people off cliffs because they can't write the thing properly.

Posted by: yozh

Lol, I hope thats the case.

Posted by: JerryNY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saoirse1916

Or it means that if you want to develop GPS applications you have to work out a special arrangement with Apple -- as Clipse said, Apple doesn't want just any boob making a mapping program that guides people off cliffs because they can't write the thing properly.

I have a feeling that might be closer to the truth. The copy seems like CYA legal jargon to keep Apple from being culpable from people who drive into rivers etc. Tom Tom's app won't be cheap, over $100? , so they probably will make some exclusive deal with Apple. Think of it this way, Apple gets 30% of Apps sold on the App store if the Tom Tom app comes in at $100 Apple makes probably $29 after expenses.

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saoirse1916

Much like how Sun and Adobe are "working out" special arrangements with Apple to bring java and flash into the iphone.

It's a business model issue --- mobile handset navigation is the only "killer app" that actually makes money --- and Apple wants no one to make them unless Apple can take a huge cut on it.

Posted by: KDarling

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryNY

I have a feeling that might be closer to the truth. The copy seems like CYA legal jargon to keep Apple from being culpable from people who drive into rivers etc.

Exactly. Most consumer computer OS's have clauses saying they should not be used for control of nuclear power plants or medical equipment. They're just not robust enough.

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDarling

Exactly. Most consumer computer OS's have clauses saying they should not be used for control of nuclear power plants or medical equipment. They're just not robust enough.

Except that there is a history with Sun and Adobe on the iphone.

Sure it's part of the cover your *** clause, but money is the real issue why some of these apps (like java and flash) will never make it to the iphone.

Mobile phone navigation is the only killer app that actually make any money at all. It's all about the money.

Posted by: hellphone

I think there's a much simpler explanation.

The iPhone is all about INTEGRATION, less about being at the cutting edge of any one function. So GPS apps are designed to be location aware and do cool things with that using the SDK, not become road warrior devices like the Garmin nuvi, for example.

And I'd also guess that licensing arrangements with Google and Navteq for the existing streaming map functions would run into trouble if Joe Schmoe brewed up his own maps and app and had them run locally on the phone.

Finally, there's the whole background process tar pit.

-dan

Posted by: tks989

looks like they're gonna have total lockdown on this device, the good apps, and the access to the apps.

Posted by: flyingdutchman

Here is a less sensationalistic take from engadget:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/11/...idance-dancing/

I really think it is a cover your rear type of clause. Apple does not want to be liable for bad directions. I am sure GPS companies can work a deal where they take liability.

And by the way, do yourself a favor and stay away from Gizmodo.

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdutchman

I am sure GPS companies can work a deal where they take liability.

I am sure that Sun and Adobe can work out a deal on making java and flash onto the iphone as well.

This isn't CYA, this is money.

Posted by: flyingdutchman

Quote:

Originally Posted by samab

I am sure that Sun and Adobe can work out a deal on making java and flash onto the iphone as well.

This isn't CYA, this is money.

LOL, ok. I think it is time to take off the tinfoil hat. You guys really think everything is some big conspiracy huh? Read the whole bullet from that agreement:

Quote:

marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes.

This is what Apple does not want to be liable for:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/10/...-into-sandpile/
http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/11/...early-perishes/

Get it?

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdutchman

LOL, ok. I think it is time to take off the tinfoil hat. You guys really think everything is some big conspiracy huh?

What conspiracy theory? Apple is a for-profit company.

Anything other than that --- that's a conspiracy theory.

Posted by: yozh

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdutchman

Here is a less sensationalistic take from engadget:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/11/...idance-dancing/

I really think it is a cover your rear type of clause. Apple does not want to be liable for bad directions. I am sure GPS companies can work a deal where they take liability.

And by the way, do yourself a favor and stay away from Gizmodo.

Lol anti gizmodo ? Why ? Love that site as well as engadget bgr macrumors

Will see when it comes to launch time who will have what. I really hope TT comes thru with a nav we can use on the iPhone ....

Posted by: wookiee2cu

ATT*Mark posted these two links regarding this:
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...ta-music-downl/
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...idance-dancing/

If you read the second link, at the end it has:

Quote:

Update: Astute commenter Austin points out that these terms are copied almost word-for-word from the Google Maps API terms -- which means that TomTom and others are probably free to use their own maps to do real-time guidance.

It is simply a disclaimer. Reminds me of the idiot in the RV who turned on autopilot/cc and got up to make a sandwich. The RV crashed, he sued, he won because it was not detailed in the manual that you still must drive, you just don't have to keep your foot on the gas pedal anymore.

Posted by: yozh

Quote:

Originally Posted by wookiee2cu

ATT*Mark posted these two links regarding this:
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...ta-music-downl/
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...idance-dancing/

If you read the second link, at the end it has:

It is simply a disclaimer. Reminds me of the idiot in the RV who turned on autopilot/cc and got up to make a sandwich. The RV crashed, he sued, he won because it was not detailed in the manual that you still must drive, you just don't have to keep your foot on the gas pedal anymore.

LOL I remember that one

Posted by: flyingdutchman

Quote:

Originally Posted by yozh

Lol anti gizmodo ? Why ? Love that site as well as engadget bgr macrumors

LOL. Little OT, but ya I can't stand Gizmodo. They have little integrity and tend to post things way before doing any sort of research. They also tend to be overly sensational. The others you mentioned are much better resources than Gizmodo.

Posted by: toomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdutchman

And by the way, do yourself a favor and stay away from Gizmodo.

I've intentionally avoided their site, ever since the horrible incident where they were shutting off displays at booths at CES and getting a kick out of it - even while presenters were speaking. I've spoken at shows like that, and their act - while childish and immature in and of itself - was then followed by a rather blatantly unrepentant attitude on the part of Gizmodo and Denton Media.

I don't visit Gizmodo anymore.

Posted by: cokeman73

This is not really surprising. There is 2 ways to look at it.
1. Apple is just control freaks.
2. If Apple develops it, then it can run in the background so it doesn't shut off if you get a call.

Personally I think Apple fully intends to give mms, video recording, copy/paste ect...but all for a price. Apple will develop programs for it just like others, but Apple will charge for it. So what are you willing to pay for basic functions?

Posted by: jvanbrecht

The clause has nothing to do with using applications like tomtom or garmin on the iphone, but rather integrating those applications with autonomous devices like autopilot and such where the iphone/guidance application would have direct control over the vehicle (could be anything from rc planes to real planes and boats and such).

Posted by: obo

I had hoped that a cycling application would be available using the GPS.

Posted by: mib1800

Does anyone have a definitive answer that Iphone 3G has a real built-in GPS chip which can track satelites signal without requiring any other assisted means?

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvanbrecht

The clause has nothing to do with using applications like tomtom or garmin on the iphone, but rather integrating those applications with autonomous devices like autopilot and such where the iphone/guidance application would have direct control over the vehicle (could be anything from rc planes to real planes and boats and such).

If you read the actual sentence --- watch where the ";" are.

The items are separated by semi-colons --- they are independent clauses.

Posted by: samab

Quote:

Originally Posted by cokeman73

Personally I think Apple fully intends to give mms, video recording, copy/paste ect...but all for a price. Apple will develop programs for it just like others, but Apple will charge for it. So what are you willing to pay for basic functions?

Sooner or later, you can't even turn on the iphone without a mobileme subscription.

Posted by: KenAF

As noted elsewhere, the terms in Apple's SDK are almost word for word from Google's terms of use for their map data.

GoogleMaps terms of use:

Quote:

In addition, except where you have been specifically licensed by Google to do so, You may not use the Service with any products, systems, or applications installed or otherwise connected to or in communication with vehicles for or in connection with: (a) real time route guidance (including without limitation, turn-by-turn route guidance and other routing that is enabled through the use of a sensor); (b) any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle behavior; or (c) dispatch, fleet management or similar applications.

Compare that to the Apple iPhone SDK terms of use:

Quote:

Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes.

One of the features of the SDK is to provide access to location information using the GoogleMaps functionality.

If software developers could use Google Map data in their own GPS navigation programs, there would be no reason to license map data from Navteq and TeleAtlas (where Google gets its map data), and those companies wouldn't remain in business for very long.

My take is that any developer can write their own GPS application for the iPhone 3G if and only if they license (and include) the map data from Navteq or TeleAtlas. That's what TomTom does with their software, which includes 1+GB worth of maps.

Posted by: KenAF

Quote:

Originally Posted by mib1800

Does anyone have a definitive answer that Iphone 3G has a real built-in GPS chip which can track satelites signal without requiring any other assisted means?

Yes. But there are many times when you won't have a GPS lock, and in that case, cell tower triangulation is used to determine your approximate position.

I highly doubt the iPhone's GPS antenna (and GPS reception) is as good as what you get with a standalone Garmin or TomTom GPS. I would not expect the iPhone to have a GPS signal lock when inside many buildings.

Posted by: jvanbrecht

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenAF

Wrong....

The AGPS chipset will work just fine without any cellular network available, it will just take much longer to lock onto the sats. The assistance servers in general provide orbital data (where the satellites are in orbit), and can, on request of the phone, or enforced by the operator (in the case of verizon) force actual location processing and sending that info via a data stream (VZ navigator works like that).

As long as you have maps locally, you can use the AGPS chipset fine.

Posted by: LIVEFRMNYC

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenAF

Personally I think some of the stand alone GPS like Garmin and TomTom are worst at getting signal and have more errors in direction than some of the GPS phones I had. Like the HP 6945 and the TyTN II. And my phones never had any type of assistance feature.

Posted by: samab

AGPS really means GPS + cell phone tower triangulation.

GPS requires line of sight to the satellites --- something you can't do with high rise buildings. After the GPS signals bounce around the high rise buildings a few times --- you ain't going to get accurate location anymore.