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64K SIMS and ENS Phones Q&A (Resulting from Cingular and ATTWS Merger)

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Posted by: kilo

Executive Summary: You don't need a 64K SIM, if you end up doing something that requires a 64K SIM, Cingular will make you get one. And Executive Washroom 3B is closed, the closest one is on 4A until 3B is repaired sometime next week.

Okay all you non-executives who kept reading, and this applies to both Cingular and AT&T Wireless customers.

I'm going to try and make this as comprehensive as possible, but I'm sure I'll get something wrong or leave something out, so if you KNOW you are correct, please pitch in corrections (If your getting your information from your sisters boyfriends brothers teacher who bought a cell phone last week and keeps asking why it doesn't have a dial-tone, don't bother passing along info you get from them)

Starting on November 15th-ish Cingular and AT&T Wireless will become be presented toward the public as one company. This is called "Day 1"

Since there will still exist two seperate networks, an Orange (formely Cingular) and a Blue (formeley AT&T Wireless) network. So that customers can get the biggest advantage of the two networks until they are merged into one, Cingular will be introducing a combination of virtual applications stored on a 64K SIM (most SIMS from before were either 32K or less) and Enhanced Network Selection (ENS) Handsets.

Why introduce new equipment? What was wrong with the old stuff? Will my old phone still work on this new Cingular network?

Chill man/girl, not to worry. Everyones phone will still work, in fact after Day 1 if there used to be both Cingular and ATTWS in your town, you will probably get better reception that you used to, with even more improvement in the future.

So what does the combo of 64K SIM and ENS give me?
As a consumer you may not notice a difference, or even care to get new equipment. About the only improvement you would see might be in battery life because your phone stops scanning for a differnet network ever 6 minutes.

Scan for a different network every 6 minutes?
That's right. There are these things called "MNC" that is like a "network identifier". This isn't nothing you need worry about. But right now ATTWS has an MNC of 310380, and Cingular has 3 MNC's spread out over the US (310410 and two others but I can't remember). Eventually Cingular will move all the towers/networks to 310410 but until then there needs to be a way for Cingular to "home" different subscribers on the different networks and move them back and forth, without the user having to do anything, or even being aware of what's going on.

Now who NEEDS a 64K SIM and ENS Equipment?
Nobody. But any new phone you buy from Cingular after Day 1 should have ENS and most new SIMS will be a 64K SIM.

However for Cingulars purposes, the customers that Cingular will want to sell this new equipment primarily to will be former AT&T Wireless customers ESPECIALLY if they are in an area where there are only former AT&T Wireless towers and no Cingular towers.

Why them?
Because basically what a 64K SIM and ENS enabled Handset does is "fake" a different network for a phone to "home" on.
Cingular needs to do this to load balance between the two networks and give them time to transition all the old MNC's to 310410

What happens if I have JUST a 64K SIM but not an ENS enabled phone?
Your phone will act like it did if you put a 32K SIM in it. Use whatever network is in your area, and then scan for a new network every 6 minutes.

What happens if I have JUST an ENS enabled phone and a 32K SIM?
Your phone will act like it did if you were using a non-ENS enabled phone. Use whatever network is in your area, and then scan for a new network every 6 minutes.

Well if all this isn't really necessary for me, and really is the best advantage to the company, why am I getting one?
Because if you are a former AT&T Wireless customer and want to move to one of the new rollover plans you MUST migrate to a 64K SIM and ENS combo.

What if I have unlocked my AT&T Wireless phone, do I have to migrate to this new stuff?
Yes. Of course you could keep your ATTWS handset, get this new Cingular ENS handset and 64K SIM and then just take the 64K SIM out and put it back into your old ATTWS handset, and you always have this backup phone handy.
However I would not recommend that option.
"They" say that you can get up to $150 if you return an ATTWS handset if it's high end and still in pretty good condition. Then use that credit toward getting one of these new Cingular phones.


Posted by: kilo

Oh right, one more last thing to add:

Will current Cingular customer have to move to new equipment to gain advantage of the blue network (formerly AT&T Wireless towers)?

No

Will current Cingular customer have to get new equipment to change to new rate plans?

If you are a Cingular customer and have a GSM phone that is both 850 AND 1900 MHz bands that's all it takes to move to one of the new nationwide plans coming out on November 15th.

Next time you buy a new phone it will probably be a 64K SIM and ENS Equipment, just FYI.


Posted by: kilo

okay, another thing:

Everyone who isn't getting all this new equipment doesn't need to do a thing. Updates will be sent out "over the air" that will update the phones to search for Cingular 310410 then the other Cingular systems, and then for "blue network" 310380.

Then once all the networks get updated it will be setup to search for 310410 and then for other companies (like T-Mo or Cellular One or Triton PCS depending on what area you are in)


Posted by: Paolo

its about time Cingular finally gets their act in gear and starts using one MCC/MNC instead of 20. When they finally re-label their towers with one standard MNC code US WIDE, it makes it a lot easier for non cingular customers to identify cingular network on their Fieldtest/Net Monitor mode.


Posted by: pareto

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
Cingular has 3 MNC's spread out over the US (310410 and two others but I can't remember)


310-150 in the DCS region and 310-170 in the west.


Posted by: toolhead

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
Eventually Cingular will move all the towers/networks to 310410


Is there an ETA on this happening?


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by toolhead
Is there an ETA on this happening?
not that they've told me, and i don't really have a good guess either


Posted by: erub

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
okay, another thing:

Everyone who isn't getting all this new equipment doesn't need to do a thing. Updates will be sent out "over the air" that will update the phones to search for Cingular 310410 then the other Cingular systems, and then for "blue network" 310380.

Then once all the networks get updated it will be setup to search for 310410 and then for other companies (like T-Mo or Cellular One or Triton PCS depending on what area you are in)


Wait, once this dump all current Cingular Blue customers on to the Orange network? Won't this cause network overload, espically in places where Cingular Orange is very strong (i.e. i never lose signal). Its ×××× near impossible here after a football game to get a call thru, do we really need twice as many subscribers on it?


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by erub
Wait, once this dump all current Cingular Blue customers on to the Orange network? Won't this cause network overload, espically in places where Cingular Orange is very strong (i.e. i never lose signal). Its ×××× near impossible here after a football game to get a call thru, do we really need twice as many subscribers on it?


Hey hey, hold up. Let me rephrase that:

One day all of the radios out there that are broadcasting the MNC's beside 310410 will start broadcasting 310410 and all new network stuff going up will be 310410. So all the other networks will become the "310410 Cingular Network" so that it will have plenty of capacity to handle all the customers because it combining both networks


Posted by: Paolo

when at&t towers are dismantled or changed over to id: 310-41, cingular orange network will get the benefit of seamless capacity on one entire network. right now the capacity is split half on cing, half on at&t, so if cingular customers are maxing out the network, and at&t network is 50% unused, it would be inefficient to both.


Posted by: powertoburn

what virtual apps are on the 64K sim?

I notice with the 64K and Nokia 3650 I see "Sim services" being loaded when the phone is powered up.


Posted by: shortyd999

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
okay, another thing:

Everyone who isn't getting all this new equipment doesn't need to do a thing. Updates will be sent out "over the air" that will update the phones to search for Cingular 310410 then the other Cingular systems, and then for "blue network" 310380.

Then once all the networks get updated it will be setup to search for 310410 and then for other companies (like T-Mo or Cellular One or Triton PCS depending on what area you are in)

When are they suppose to send out this OTA update?? On the 15th?? And does anyone know if the V551 is an ENS phone??


Posted by: Rcadden

This is good info, Kilo, thanks! Can we get this stickied, it would probably prevent alot of useless threads being started...


Posted by: scottj

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo

What if I have unlocked my AT&T Wireless phone, do I have to migrate to this new stuff?
Yes. Of course you could keep your ATTWS handset, get this new Cingular ENS handset and 64K SIM and then just take the 64K SIM out and put it back into your old ATTWS handset, and you always have this backup phone handy.
However I would not recommend that option.


This statement confuses me - you seem to be implying that by taking the new SIM out of your new Cingular phone and putting it into your old ATTWS phone, then you're all set - which implies there is no need to replace your ATTWS phone at all (assuming it's unlocked - which, for the most part, Cingular could easily do). Am I missing something? The ENS handsets you're talking about - do you have any idea which handsets that Cingular currently offers are ENS capable? Are any ATTWS handsets ENS capable? For example, both ATTWS and Cingular offer the 6620 - is it ENS capable?


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by Paolo
when at&t towers are dismantled or changed over to id: 310-41, cingular orange network will get the benefit of seamless capacity on one entire network. right now the capacity is split half on cing, half on at&t, so if cingular customers are maxing out the network, and at&t network is 50% unused, it would be inefficient to both.
Are you asking or are you telling? One of the benefits to Cingular of all this is that they can switch people back and forth from the blue network to the orange network until we finally get the brown network (okay we won't be calling it the brown network, but I thought it was funny)
Quote:
Originally posted by powertoburn
what virtual apps are on the 64K sim?
3: An application that "fakes" a different home network; an application that keeps the phone from searching for a networks every 6 minutes; but I don't know what the third one is supposed to be for.

If anyone knows which phones are ENS compatible, please post, because I don't know.
Quote:
Originally posted by shortyd999
When are they suppose to send out this OTA update?
They probably won't send it out to everyone at once. I would imagine everyone will get it within a few months of Day 1
Quote:
Originally posted by scottj
This statement confuses me - you seem to be implying that by taking the new SIM out of your new Cingular phone and putting it into your old ATTWS phone, then you're all set - which implies there is no need to replace your ATTWS phone at all (assuming it's unlocked - which, for the most part, Cingular could easily do).
That's just the thing. Cingular has no plans to unlock ATTWS phones. And you should be able to put a 64K SIM into an unlocked ATTWS phone and it work just like a 32K Cingular SIM into an unlocked ATTWS phone. But if a Cingular blue customer wants to get one of the plans with rollover, cingular will have them buy a new ENS phone with 64K SIM.


Posted by: White Skinned

I must say this has probably been the most usefull post ive seen on hofo in awhile..This post in itself answered 100 questions from all over the forum..Fabulous post kilo..We could deffenetly use this post sticked




Posted by: kilo

I hope that a comprehensive list of ENS phones will be posted soon.


Posted by: ASimpleFarmer

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
I hope that a comprehensive list of ENS phones will be posted soon.


that would be glorious. I plan on moving over to cingular a little after the 15th. my tmobile plan ends the 14th of the month


Posted by: powertoburn

64K & NON ENS PHONE

So, from my understanding with my 64K sim currently my phone is already scanning for a new network every 6 minutes?

So, I assume that AT&T roaming is not even allowed yet in my LAC - that my phone stops searching?

Also, won't the network searching every 6 minutes cause me to miss calls if someone happens to call while the phone is searching? Or does my phone still remain registered on the serving site.

Now, what if 32K sim and non ENS phone. Or 8K & 16K sim with non ENS phone? Will the phone still scan for network to register on every 6 minutes? I am assuming OTA and network parameter on BTS can control this.

My dad has a 8K sim and my mom has 16K sim from the PacBell days. Their sim did receive the OTA to display Cingular


Posted by: Rube

You said that:
Quote:
... you should be able to put a 64K SIM into an unlocked ATTWS phone and it work just like a 32K Cingular SIM into an unlocked ATTWS phone. But if a Cingular blue customer wants to get one of the plans with rollover, cingular will have them buy a new ENS phone with 64K SIM.


but also said that:

Quote:
Of course you could keep your ATTWS handset, get this new Cingular ENS handset and 64K SIM and then just take the 64K SIM out and put it back into your old ATTWS handset, and you always have this backup phone handy.


They seem to contradict one another. Let me phrase this in a simple question:

If I buy the cheapest phone possible from Cingular (maybe free with incentives), sign up for a rollover plan, and then stick my sim into my unlocked AT&T phone would I run into any problems?

I'm not too concerned about the ENS thing, because it doesn't seem to have a real effect on me as an end user. I also am aware of the $150 deal, but even with that, the Cingular 6620 would cost more than what I paid for it at AT&T.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by powertoburn
64K & NON ENS PHONE
From what I've been told, a 64K and a non-ens phone will act the exact same way as a 32K sim in a non-ens phone or a 16k sim in a non-ens phone or a 8k SIM in a non-ens phone, or any SIM (besides a 64K SIM with the virtual applications of the new Cingular) in an ENS enabled phone:

It will scan for service every 6 minutes

I don't know about the thing about not getting phone calls while scanning. I would guess not just because I've not heard of tons of people wondering why they were getting a notification they had gotten a voicemail without receiving an incoming call.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rube
If I buy the cheapest phone possible from Cingular (maybe free with incentives), sign up for a rollover plan, and then stick my sim into my unlocked AT&T phone would I run into any problems?
No (well... they say it would lead to decreased battery life, especially if you lived in an area where there are no Cingular Orange towers)

And for anyone who just read that, remember that he DID say that it was unlocked.

For that to work you have to assume that if you are on your home network then it doesn't scan as much... but how can that be true? Where's IHAP when we need him?


Posted by: kilo

oh yeah, unlocked ATTWS customers will need to get their GPRS Internet Settings from the Cingular FAQ at:

Cingular GSM WAP Settings
http://www.howardforums.com/showthr...threadid=132602


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by papagiorgio13
does anyone know if after the 15th people with 32k sims will be able to get 64k replacements for free?


They don't need them, the only people who "need" them are ATTWS customers who get one of the ENS-Enabled phones offered by Cingular


Posted by: Sigifrith

I'm a Cingular customer. I have a locked AT&T V-600 coming thru eBay. I know that it must be unlocked, but thought I could just stick in my existing SIM card. Will this work, or do I need a 64k card?
If I need the new card, how difficult will it be to get one from Cingular?

Thanks


Posted by: futureMD

Your AT&T branded v600 will be locked to an AT&T SIM card. You can unlock it, however. This site will do it for $20, and you don't need software or a data cable. It will unlock if via keypresses. You'll have to unlock it to put in a Cingular SIM card. You won't need a 64K SIM card. Everything that a 64K SIM card has that you need will be downloaded via an OTA update sometime on or after Nov. 15.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
They don't need them, the only people who "need" them are ATTWS customers who get one of the ENS-Enabled phones offered by Cingular


And I should add, "The only people who would find it REALLY necessary is ATTWS customers who live in an area with only Cingular Blue towers and no Cingular Orange towers and get one of the new ENS-Enabled phones offered by Cingular

Quote:
Originally posted by Sigifrith
I'm a Cingular customer. I have a locked AT&T V-600 coming thru eBay. I know that it must be unlocked, but thought I could just stick in my existing SIM card. Will this work, or do I need a 64k card?
You don't need one, your existing 32K SIM will work just fine (after the phone is unlocked of course)

What futureMD just said was right about not needing one, i just figured I'd pointlessly post again.


Posted by: rbrome

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
And I should add, "The only people who would find it REALLY necessary is ATTWS customers who live in an area with only Cingular Blue towers and no Cingular Orange towers and get one of the new ENS-Enabled phones offered by Cingular


Oooooh - NOW I get it! I knew I was missing something in all of this.

So what you're saying is that 64K SIMs combined with ENS allow a Cingular (Orange) phone and SIM to treat the AT&T (Cingular Blue) network as its home network, right?

And that isn't possible with just an OTA update to a non-ENS Cingular phone and/or 32K SIM, correct?


Posted by: futureMD

Quote:
Originally posted by rbrome
And that isn't possible with just an OTA update to a non-ENS Cingular phone and/or 32K SIM, correct?
Yes, this is exactly what I was wondering, too.

I'm glad that my 6230 turned out to have ENS. I would have hated to have gotten a non-ENS phone right before the merger, even though I'm in a Cingular orange-dominated area (Atlanta, corporate headquarters) I do have 5 "roaming minutes" per the OLAM, so it appears that I'm spending some time on Cingular blue somewhere.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by rbrome
Oooooh - NOW I get it! I knew I was missing something in all of this.

So what you're saying is that 64K SIMs combined with ENS allow a Cingular (Orange) phone and SIM to treat the AT&T (Cingular Blue) network as its home network, right?

And that isn't possible with just an OTA update to a non-ENS Cingular phone and/or 32K SIM, correct?


Exactly! Give that man a cigar.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by futureMD
I'm in a Cingular orange-dominated area (Atlanta, corporate headquarters) I do have 5 "roaming minutes" per the OLAM, so it appears that I'm spending some time on Cingular blue somewhere.


It could in theory be someone aside from Cingular blue


Posted by: futureMD

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
It could in theory be someone aside from Cingular blue
I don't believe Cingular allows TMO roaming in ATL.


Posted by: REAL

isnt there supposed to be a larger phonebook capacity


Posted by: Hi-Tek

Ok so I'm a bit disapointed and confused. From quickly reading this thread, I have gathered that if I have a 32k SIM even after day 1, my phone will still continue to prefer Cingular orange. And even if I buy a new 64k SIM card, my phone will continue to prefer "orange" since it's not ENS.
Which in my case sucks, since service at home is better on ATT. So if I want my phone to treat "blue" like a home network, I need to poney up for a new "ENS" phone, and a new 64k SIM card, since my T637 apparently is not ENS capable. I just bought the phone in July, I love it, it does everything I need it too and have no complaints, besides the preference of "orange" vs. "blue".....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, since IMO this does not seem too fair. Seing i have to suffer almost 6 more months before I'm eligible for a "sale" price upgrade...


Posted by: mspingeld

Is there a way to tell which phones are ENS capable and which are not?


Posted by: REAL

is the samsung e316 ENS capapble


Posted by: EdwardP

What about customers of MVNO's (i.e. TracFone or 7-11 SpeakOut)? Would they also receive the OTA updates?


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by Hi-Tek
I have gathered that if I have a 32k SIM even after day 1, my phone will still continue to prefer Cingular orange...since service at home is better on ATT. So if I want my phone to treat "blue" like a home network...


Is your Cingular phone ever able to use the ATTWS towers in your area? If not it should be able to come 11/15/2004. Then once the signal drops low enough, it should switch to the ATTWS tower.

Something I should point out about these "Over The Air Updates" (OTA) and whether different ones "prefer" one system or another.

Right now, at this very moment, every Cingular SIM is setup to "prefer" one of the 3 Cingular networks (either 310150, 310170, or 310410) first, and then the other two Cingular networks (whichever two it didn't prefer first), and then a whole long list of other networks (some in this country, some in other countries).
What used to happen is that ATTWS was kinda far down the list. What this "Over the Air Update" is going to do is put it on the list right after the 3 Cingular networks.
It's going to do this for everyone (64K SIM, 32K SIM, ENS phone, non-ENS phone, Cingular Orange, formerly Cingular Blue but now Cingular Orange even with a 64K SIM and an ENS phone), everyone EXCEPT for Cingular Blue customers who do not change to a new Cingular price plan and keep their old equipment, and Cingular Blue customers who are sold their 64K SIMS and ENS phones in areas where there are no Cingular Orange towers. In that case their 64K SIM will still list Cingular first, then ATTWS, then the other networks, but the virtual applications possible with a 64K SIM and ENS phone will allow the phone to "fake" having ATTWS as it's "Home/Preferred" network.

Now the flip side of that coin might very well have been that the ATTWS towers in whatever area you were in were "LAC Locked" from allowing you to use them. (See the couple of threads in the main Cingular forum which ask "Which ATT LACs are not yet open?") But regardless I believe they should all be open on November 15th 2004.

I would say wait until then and see if you don't see an improvement.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by EdwardP
What about customers of MVNO's (i.e. TracFone or 7-11 SpeakOut)? Would they also receive the OTA updates?


You bring up an interesting point. One probably better to post here:
The OFFICIAL Cingular/AWS MERGER Information Thread....Post your questions HERE ONLY!
http://www.howardforums.com/showthr...threadid=482213

I've done so on that thread.


Posted by: dkhomdds

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo

Right now, at this very moment, every Cingular SIM is setup to "prefer" one of the 3 Cingular networks (either 310150, 310170, or 310410) first, and then the other two Cingular networks (whichever two it didn't prefer first), and then a whole long list of other networks (some in this country, some in other countries).
What used to happen is that ATTWS was kinda far down the list. What this "Over the Air Update" is going to do is put it on the list right after the 3 Cingular networks.


I have a NYC 32K SIM and I asked for the OTA over the phone and they did it....from what I understand the OTA was to fix the "Cingular" and "Cingular Extended" ID's flip/flops when I went from one to the other (T-Mo/AT&T)....

I still see that I am still on the "Orange" network first (T-Mobile) after the OTA. I check the SIM list after the OTA and the only thing I saw was they deleted a carrier off the list (I think Telefona or something like that).

The start of the new list follows:

Cingular home 310-150
#1 Cingular 310-410
#2 Cingular 310-150
#3 Cingular 310-170
#4 USAFC 310-910
#5 T-Mobile 310-260
#6 AT&T Wireless 310-380
#7 TelCel GSM 334-020

(Old list had T-Mo at #6 and AT&T at #7)

As it is listed, Cingular still wants me to use the Joint/Venture Cingular/T-mobile network 1st and then AT&T Wireless 2nd or if there is no T-Mo coverage. A weak T-Mobile signal will still keep me locked onto T-Mo, even if there is a stronger AT&T Wireless signal around....(I do fudge my list around to pick AT&T 1st, so I get AT&T over T-Mo, but I have to fudge the list....)

So do you think there will be a new OTA after the 15th to move AT&T up the list, or do you think they will change the AT&T Tower ID's to 310-410 to solve this problem......


Posted by: DeltaOne81

I don't think ya ever really answered Hi-Tek's real question. Which I am interested in as well. More for a friend than for myself.

I'll rephrase:
If you're a person with a somewhat older (i.e. non-ENS phone) and you're a Cingular Orange customer... at your home, you have 1-2 bars of Cingular Orange and 5 of Cingular Blue. So that your phone will try to stay on the weak signal and therefore you miss calls when it does so...

what exactly is going to help you?

A 64K SIM can't cause it's not ENS enabled, right?

Is it possible that an OTA update would. Would it be possible to have 310-380 listed as 'Home', so that when it locks onto that, it won't go searching again? Or does it always search for a higher network even if its already on a Home one? Or is there only one possible 'Home' on a PRL?

Is anything going to help that situation, or will we have to wait 6 months or so until the networks are all merged to 310-410?


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by dkhomdds
I have a NYC 32K SIM and I asked for the OTA over the phone and they did it....from what I understand the OTA was to fix the "Cingular" and "Cingular Extended" ID's flip/flops when I went from one to the other (T-Mo/AT&T)....

I still see that I am still on the "Orange" network first (T-Mobile) after the OTA. I check the SIM list after the OTA and the only thing I saw was they deleted a carrier off the list (I think Telefona or something like that).

The start of the new list follows:

Cingular home 310-150
#1 Cingular 310-410
#2 Cingular 310-150
#3 Cingular 310-170
#4 USAFC 310-910
#5 T-Mobile 310-260
#6 AT&T Wireless 310-380
#7 TelCel GSM 334-020

(Old list had T-Mo at #6 and AT&T at #7)

As it is listed, Cingular still wants me to use the Joint/Venture Cingular/T-mobile network 1st and then AT&T Wireless 2nd or if there is no T-Mo coverage. A weak T-Mobile signal will still keep me locked onto T-Mo, even if there is a stronger AT&T Wireless signal around....(I do fudge my list around to pick AT&T 1st, so I get AT&T over T-Mo, but I have to fudge the list....)

So do you think there will be a new OTA after the 15th to move AT&T up the list, or do you think they will change the AT&T Tower ID's to 310-410 to solve this problem......


well now is where it gets interesting. Cingular wants to eventually get their entire nationwide network to be 310410, now why you prefer that over 310260 is probably to keep the 310380 network from overloading, at what point it will start prefering is a good question

here comes the question: Does the new PLMN list have a lower threshhold to switch to ATTWS than it did before since ATTWS is going to be LAC unlocked on Monday?

Come monday/tuesday, let us know if the phone seems to switch to ATTWS any easier when the T-Mo shared network goes low.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by DeltaOne81
I don't think ya ever really answered Hi-Tek's real question. Which I am interested in as well. More for a friend than for myself.
I'll rephrase:
If you're a person with a somewhat older (i.e. non-ENS phone) and you're a Cingular Orange customer... at your home, you have 1-2 bars of Cingular Orange and 5 of Cingular Blue. So that your phone will try to stay on the weak signal and therefore you miss calls when it does so...
what exactly is going to help you?
A 64K SIM can't cause it's not ENS enabled, right?
Is it possible that an OTA update would. Would it be possible to have 310-380 listed as 'Home', so that when it locks onto that, it won't go searching again? Or does it always search for a higher network even if its already on a Home one? Or is there only one possible 'Home' on a PRL?
Is anything going to help that situation, or will we have to wait 6 months or so until the networks are all merged to 310-410?


well I gotta admit I'm not 100% sure how that works out.

Something I would hope works out, is that with the LAC Restrictions being removed, and that there will be a lower threshold to switch to another network, you would switch at like 3 bars or something. But I have to admit, even the Tech Support merger training manager I asked didn't have that answer for me.


Posted by: hf1khal

One thing that seems to puzzle me. I am a Blue customer and my SIM preferes Blue, (in the NYC/LI area) where Blue beats the T Mobile/Cingular Area. As we all know Orange will be leaving the shared network with T Mobile and will switch to ATTW and keep 10mhz from the JV. From what you are saying here (which makes me believe that something is wrong in the way it was explained to you or it was meant for the Orange customers bennefits only in the Blue area), I would come to a conclusion (based on my location) that Orange customers are realy the ones that need the 64K SIM as they need to be forced to the Blue side. With this said since the Blue customers SIMs are already programed to home in on the Blue side then they are up and runing with no need for the 64K in the local area. So in LI the 64K SIM will not bennefit Blue but will be a bennefit for Orange.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by hf1khal
One thing that seems to puzzle me. I am a Blue customer and my SIM preferes Blue, (in the NYC/LI area) where Blue beats the T Mobile/Cingular Area. As we all know Orange will be leaving the shared network with T Mobile and will switch to ATTW and keep 10mhz from the JV. From what you are saying here (which makes me believe that something is wrong in the way it was explained to you or it was meant for the Orange customers bennefits only in the Blue area), I would come to a conclusion (based on my location) that Orange customers are realy the ones that need the 64K SIM as they need to be forced to the Blue side. With this said since the Blue customers SIMs are already programed to home in on the Blue side then they are up and runing with no need for the 64K in the local area. So in LI the 64K SIM will not bennefit Blue but will be a bennefit for Orange.


I got to admit that this thread keep making me feel like I missed a class in Merger Training or something, that or it wasn't explained to me properly (yeah I'll blame them, it's their fault)

Keep in mind the future of Cingular: 310410

Now what better way to ease the transition from 4 networks than with a phone that can fake any of those 4 networks as home, and then dynamically, from a command issued over the network, switch to another network as home.

For NYC your right, it does sound like it's the Cingular customers who need to be switched to Blue (310380), but eventually cingular will want you on 310410, not Blue.

Plus I think their keeping the Tmo shared network going for at least 2 more years.


Posted by: hf1khal

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
I got to admit that this thread keep making me feel like I missed a class in Merger Training or something, that or it wasn't explained to me properly (yeah I'll blame them, it's their fault)

Keep in mind the future of Cingular: 310410

Now what better way to ease the transition from 4 networks than with a phone that can fake any of those 4 networks as home, and then dynamically, from a command issued over the network, switch to another network as home.

For NYC your right, it does sound like it's the Cingular customers who need to be switched to Blue (310380), but eventually cingular will want you on 310410, not Blue.

Plus I think their keeping the Tmo shared network going for at least 2 more years.


With that in mind, combined with me having the V3 an OTA to my Blue SIM should do the job to make the changes for network listings update. I also heard (few months down the road) that in time there could be the possibility that the Blue customers might be able to just swap SIMs to the ens without having to change to Orange (that will work if the user also acquires an ENS capable phone). In my case the V3 is already capapble as well as any new phones that are being released starting this month.


Posted by: Hi-Tek

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
Is your Cingular phone ever able to use the ATTWS towers in your area? If not it should be able to come 11/15/2004. Then once the signal drops low enough, it should switch to the ATTWS tower.

Something I should point out about these "Over The Air Updates" (OTA) and whether different ones "prefer" one system or another.

Right now, at this very moment, every Cingular SIM is setup to "prefer" one of the 3 Cingular networks (either 310150, 310170, or 310410) first, and then the other two Cingular networks (whichever two it didn't prefer first), and then a whole long list of other networks (some in this country, some in other countries).
What used to happen is that ATTWS was kinda far down the list. What this "Over the Air Update" is going to do is put it on the list right after the 3 Cingular networks.
It's going to do this for everyone (64K SIM, 32K SIM, ENS phone, non-ENS phone, Cingular Orange, formerly Cingular Blue but now Cingular Orange even with a 64K SIM and an ENS phone), everyone EXCEPT for Cingular Blue customers who do not change to a new Cingular price plan and keep their old equipment, and Cingular Blue customers who are sold their 64K SIMS and ENS phones in areas where there are no Cingular Orange towers. In that case their 64K SIM will still list Cingular first, then ATTWS, then the other networks, but the virtual applications possible with a 64K SIM and ENS phone will allow the phone to "fake" having ATTWS as it's "Home/Preferred" network.

Now the flip side of that coin might very well have been that the ATTWS towers in whatever area you were in were "LAC Locked" from allowing you to use them. (See the couple of threads in the main Cingular forum which ask "Which ATT LACs are not yet open?") But regardless I believe they should all be open on November 15th 2004.

I would say wait until then and see if you don't see an improvement.


Well I've been always able to use "blue " towers before the merger/buyout went through. Just that my phone prefers the weaker "orange" vs the stronger "blue".
Today is November 15, and I have yet to see a difference in my signal at home. Will this OTA be sent out automaticaly? Or do I have to call and request it? I'm not a tech or anything, I just don't understand why they can't make the phone prefer the stronger signal, not hang on for dear life to the weaker "orange" signal. It's not like they're paying roaming fees to ATT anymore. Maybe I will just give it some time.... But thanks for the answers, the information is greatly valued....


Posted by: hf1khal

Quote:
Originally posted by Hi-Tek
Well I've been always able to use "blue " towers before the merger/buyout went through. Just that my phone prefers the weaker "orange" vs the stronger "blue".
Today is November 15, and I have yet to see a difference in my signal at home. Will this OTA be sent out automaticaly? Or do I have to call and request it? I'm not a tech or anything, I just don't understand why they can't make the phone prefer the stronger signal, not hang on for dear life to the weaker "orange" signal. It's not like they're paying roaming fees to ATT anymore. Maybe I will just give it some time.... But thanks for the answers, the information is greatly valued....


From what I heard is that Orange is not that well equiped for an OTA like Blue is. So them sending an OTA now might be a bit tough unless they se the Blue's OTA functionality.


Posted by: shortyd999

Well i called and ask the CSR to send me OTA update to my sim card to make sure i had the latest downloads and she did. Now anytime my phone "roams" the alpha tag says Cingular, not Cingular Extend. And i know i'm "roaming" because in my office, the Cingular signal is weak but the AWS signal is strong and it will suddenly jump from 1-2 bars, to 4-5 bars and when i make a call it will say Call Forwarding On.


Posted by: dkhomdds

Well, after following this thread, getting the OTA update and looking at someone elses 64K NYC SIM in my phone. I still have come to the conclusion that this is my only fix I have to do to force my phone to use the "Blue" network over the "Orange" network no matter what the "Orange" signal strengh is.....


Check this link out if you have a moto VXXX phone......I have been using this and running this way since 2nd week of Sept. since AT&T LAC's opened up in my area and I wanted the 850 coverage!!!

http://www.howardforums.com/showthr...threadid=491409

hope this helps some.....



Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by Hi-Tek
Well I've been always able to use "blue " towers before the merger/buyout went through. Just that my phone prefers the weaker "orange" vs the stronger "blue".
Today is November 15, and I have yet to see a difference in my signal at home. Will this OTA be sent out automaticaly? Or do I have to call and request it? I'm not a tech or anything, I just don't understand why they can't make the phone prefer the stronger signal, not hang on for dear life to the weaker "orange" signal. It's not like they're paying roaming fees to ATT anymore. Maybe I will just give it some time.... But thanks for the answers, the information is greatly valued....


yeah, Day 1 is here and I was really hoping for some changes (not for me, for everyone else, I don't even live in an overlap area)

the "hang on for dear life" thing, the phones are setup that way because when the systems were designed we had no idea we would one day want to switch back and forth to a (at the time) "foreign" network

If/When the lack of reception at your house gets to you (which I assume it has or you wouldn't be posting in a cell phone forum), call in and say that "some guy at the store" told you that your signal might be improved by updating information to my phone that they can do over the air, something about "oh-tee-a's" or some nonsense.

Best of luck.


Posted by: hf1khal

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
yeah, Day 1 is here and I was really hoping for some changes (not for me, for everyone else, I don't even live in an overlap area)

the "hang on for dear life" thing, the phones are setup that way because when the systems were designed we had no idea we would one day want to switch back and forth to a (at the time) "foreign" network

If/When the lack of reception at your house gets to you (which I assume it has or you wouldn't be posting in a cell phone forum), call in and say that "some guy at the store" told you that your signal might be improved by updating information to my phone that they can do over the air, something about "oh-tee-a's" or some nonsense.

Best of luck.


OTA (over the air) update. Someone posted about this and said that all it did was just bring up the Blue list to be next. He did a network pref edit and got Blue as the default but only for as long as he keeps his phone on, butit it re-cycled the list goes back to normal.


Posted by: futureMD

Quote:
Originally posted by hf1khal
OTA (over the air) update. Someone posted about this and said that all it did was just bring up the Blue list to be next. He did a network pref edit and got Blue as the default but only for as long as he keeps his phone on, butit it re-cycled the list goes back to normal.
Hehe. You don't have to educate kilo on what an OTA is. He was just trying to tell you what to say on the phone to sound dumb so the tech will do an OTA for you. Kilo's a tier 2 tech for Cingular. I'm sure he knows more than the majority of us about them.


Posted by: dkhomdds

With all this talk about OTA to get better receeption....It really does not work to get better reception!!! for "orange" users....

Two major things the OTA does:

1) Changes alpha tags on the SIM to display only "Cingular" when you are on either Cingular/T-Mobile/AT&T Wireless towers. It used to say "Cingular Extended" when you use AT&T towers

2) Moves T-Mobile up to the #5 spot on the list and AT&T up to #6 on the priority list. (Does not make you use AT&T over T-mobile if there is a weak, but usable T-mobile signal around!)

Now this OTA has not improve any "reception" for anybody with a 32K SIM and a non-ens phone, it just makes you think that you are on "Cingular" all the time, when you may be "Roaming" onto the "Blue" network. But your phone will still prefer the "Orange" network for now, even if you have a weak, but usable orange signal..... If the "Blue" network is stronger in your area, and you flop from one network to the other all the time. You need to force your phone to pick the "Blue" network 1st over the weaker signal, thus editing the seem on a vXXX phone (I do not know about steps on other phones) to acheive this, maby manual selection on some SE's.

The only major thing for the public with the OTA is to change the "Alpha Tags" on the SIM. Cingular feels that many people are confused about this "Cingular" and "Cingular Extended" display, questions like does that mean I am roaming and paying roaming fees, who am I roaming on? ohh no!!! Why am I roaming??? What happen to "Cingular" etc....It's a short term fix to calm the public, after AT&T opened their towers (aka LACs).

The ultimate goal for cingular over the next months is to convert all AT&T tower ID's to "Cingular ID's" and then they will have one big network.....

This is only true with a non-ens phone and either a 32K or 64K SIM. An ens-enable phone with a 64K sim has the ability to pick a stronger signal and lock onto it and also keep it locked onto it....


So when it says "Cingular" big deal you still are roaming if you can onto AT&T's "Blue" network when your "orange" signal really sucks!!! It still flip flops from tower to tower....


Posted by: hf1khal

Quote:
Originally posted by futureMD
Hehe. You don't have to educate kilo on what an OTA is. He was just trying to tell you what to say on the phone to sound dumb so the tech will do an OTA for you. Kilo's a tier 2 tech for Cingular. I'm sure he knows more than the majority of us about them.


I know Kilo knows his stuff. I jst wanted to put it out so as from experience that always there will be one in a crowd that will wonder what it is exactly, Plus, I guess I forgot I am in Hofo where every one knows what it stands for. Bad me. I did not mean any offense to Kilo in any way.


Posted by: EdwardP

On my Cingular KIC (Nokia 3100) today, I went into one area that had ONE bar (out of seven), display was "Cingular" and in another area, no bars - no service. The no-service area was for about 1/4 to 1/2 mile until "Cingular Extend" appeared - meaning the OTA update had not occurred yet.


Posted by: paul34

Quote:
Originally posted by hf1khal
... Plus, I guess I forgot I am in Hofo where every one knows what it stands for. ...


Heh. You'd THINK HoFo-ers would all know what an OTA is, but I'll bet you, right now, that there are at least 10 people who are HoFo members who don't know what an OTA is.

Just like all the people who don't know what the difference between a 64k and 32k SIM are despite at least 10 different threads being started in the last 3 days, and a wonderful FAQ article written by Kilo on this issue, as well as other issues surrounding it.


Posted by: robwormald

just thougth i'd point this out, but just about every phone in my store is ENS capable - nokia 3100 and 6010 - only way to tell really without knowning the corect SKU is that after the model number it actually SAYS ENS on the box. so if you're buying a phone, see if they can find one with that on the box.


Posted by: Hi-Tek

Ok since the conclusion is that a 64k sim won't make any difference in my Non-ENS Sony T637, the only thing to do is wait until all the "Blue" towers are converted to "310-410" from "310-380"? So anyone have a clue when this will happen? And if this does happen, I assume my phone will then hang on to the stronger signal...I hope. If not I will have to drop money on a new handset taht is ENS capable....oh well. I will have to be patient.


Posted by: mspingeld

Is the Siemens SX66(Imate PDA2K) ENS capable? How about the MPX220?


Posted by: Rube

Quote:
Originally posted by Hi-Tek
....oh well. I will have to be patient.


Good advice for all of us...

I'm trying to avoid the same problem. I want to use my unlocked 6620 with a Cing SIM (eventually), but I'm going to wait to see how the tower/network situation turns out over the next month or so.

this guy seemed to have luck with it, but NYC is a unique market (with T-Mobile and all), so I'm waiting to hear more stories like this in other parts of the country.


Posted by: SBacklin

Does anyone know what phones have the ENS capability?


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by Hi-Tek
Ok since the conclusion is that a 64k sim won't make any difference in my Non-ENS Sony T637, the only thing to do is wait until all the "Blue" towers are converted to "310-410" from "310-380"?


(man I hope I'm explaining this right, it seems like I keep questionting myself the longer this FAQ goes)

A sim card will always have one network that it prefers.

32K SIMS prefer whatever network they were originally setup on

Central Region Orange with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310410

All blue customers with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310380

West Coast Orange with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310xxx (i forget)

New York Orange with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310yyy (again i forget)

Anyone with a 64K SIM are setup to prefer 310410 BUT coupled with a ENS phone, it can fake any network Cingular chooses
IE: I have a phone number out of a town that's only Blue, so Cingular will setup my phone to prefer 310380 for now, and eventually when the networks switch, Cingular will set it up to prefer 310410
-or-
IE: I have a phone number out of New York, so Cingular will setup my phone to prefer either T-Mo or Blue depending on the load to either, and eventually when the networks switch, Cingular will set it up to prefer 310410

So what's a person with a 32K SIM to do?

Well if you live in Central Region and are Orange, nothing, your already setup to prefer what the new cingular will be.

If you are Cingular blue, Cingular would prefer you to grab one of the new 64K SIMS and ENS phones.

If you are Orange and you only have a 32K SIM, on your next upgrade take the 64K SIM and ENS phone.

Now the question comes to "Will a 64K SIM and ENS phone improve my reception" - Not necessarily. You could still be setup to prefer the exact same network you were on before. Our best hope is for Cingular to complete the "brown" or Allover network as soon as possible.


Posted by: shaggymatt

Been reading through this thread, and have been kind of anxious to jump over to Cingular w/ my Audiovox SMT 5600. Can you tell me if that phone has ENS capabilities? I love some of the add ons that Cingular has to offer at a lower price point, I haven't even called yet to see what my FAN discount is with Orange.

Bottom line is I DON'T want to give up this phone by any means! I just got it last week and absolutely hands down this is the best and most functional phone I have ever owned.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by shaggymatt
Been reading through this thread, and have been kind of anxious to jump over to Cingular w/ my Audiovox SMT 5600. Can you tell me if that phone has ENS capabilities? I love some of the add ons that Cingular has to offer at a lower price point, I haven't even called yet to see what my FAN discount is with Orange.

Bottom line is I DON'T want to give up this phone by any means! I just got it last week and absolutely hands down this is the best and most functional phone I have ever owned.


don't know about ENS, if the phone is unlocked you could always just put your Cingular SIM in it


Posted by: Hi-Tek

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo
(man I hope I'm explaining this right, it seems like I keep questionting myself the longer this FAQ goes)

A sim card will always have one network that it prefers.

32K SIMS prefer whatever network they were originally setup on

Central Region Orange with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310410

All blue customers with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310380

West Coast Orange with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310xxx (i forget)

New York Orange with 32K SIMS are setup to prefer 310yyy (again i forget)

Anyone with a 64K SIM are setup to prefer 310410 BUT coupled with a ENS phone, it can fake any network Cingular chooses
IE: I have a phone number out of a town that's only Blue, so Cingular will setup my phone to prefer 310380 for now, and eventually when the networks switch, Cingular will set it up to prefer 310410
-or-
IE: I have a phone number out of New York, so Cingular will setup my phone to prefer either T-Mo or Blue depending on the load to either, and eventually when the networks switch, Cingular will set it up to prefer 310410

So what's a person with a 32K SIM to do?

Well if you live in Central Region and are Orange, nothing, your already setup to prefer what the new cingular will be.

If you are Cingular blue, Cingular would prefer you to grab one of the new 64K SIMS and ENS phones.

If you are Orange and you only have a 32K SIM, on your next upgrade take the 64K SIM and ENS phone.

Now the question comes to "Will a 64K SIM and ENS phone improve my reception" - Not necessarily. You could still be setup to prefer the exact same network you were on before. Our best hope is for Cingular to complete the "brown" or Allover network as soon as possible.


Ok thats what i thought. I guess I will just have to wait until the "blue" towers are made to read "410". So then that's when my phone will lock into the strongest tower, right?

BTW, yesterday at lunch I stopped by an ATT store near my office to look at one of the ENS phones I was considering buying. I started talking with the rep. about the 32k vs. 64k and they were under the impression the T637 was compatible. So the person was kind enough to give me one for free to hopefuly help out my situation. Well I will tell you there is really no difference, like you (Kilo) mentioned. The only difference is when I power cycle the phone it will make 3 "failed connection" sounds and then operate normally. Actually it will stay longer on "blue" than "orange" at my house. But it will eventualy go back to "orange" and make my life difficult. Fortunately there is Halo 2 to keep me off the phone


Posted by: Colonel Taylor

Hi-Tek, if you go into the GSM Networks menu under Connectivity, it allows you to set the network selection to manual or automatic. For the time being I've set mine to manual and it stays on the AT&T network once I've selected it.


Posted by: Mango808

Quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Taylor
Hi-Tek, if you go into the GSM Networks menu under Connectivity, it allows you to set the network selection to manual or automatic. For the time being I've set mine to manual and it stays on the AT&T network once I've selected it.
Unfortunately if you have a Cingular SIM, the Network Selection is blocked and you cannot do a manual select or change it to manual if you cannot get to it. Unless you happen to have one of those rare Old PacBell/Nevada Bell Wireless or Bell South Mobility DCS SIM cards that does not block network selection. If they have access to a T-Mobile or AT&T Wireless SIM to put in the unlocked Cingular phone, they can then change it to Manual, then put their Cingular SIM back in the phone it will be on manual select. Only problem is that it will always ask to choose the network when it finds another in the area or switches.


Posted by: jefe

Quote:
Originally posted by Mango808
Unfortunately if you have a Cingular SIM, the Network Selection is blocked and you cannot do a manual select or change it to manual if you cannot get to it. Unless you happen to have one of those rare Old PacBell/Nevada Bell Wireless or Bell South Mobility DCS SIM cards that does not block network selection. If they have access to a T-Mobile or AT&T Wireless SIM to put in the unlocked Cingular phone, they can then change it to Manual, then put their Cingular SIM back in the phone it will be on manual select. Only problem is that it will always ask to choose the network when it finds another in the area or switches.
IMHO, this is a big dis-incentive for me to change to Orange.

I occasionally, but seldom, find it beneficial to manually switch carriers here in the States. But in Europe...I use that feature all the time.

BTW...another tnx here, Kilo, for clearing up some questions I had.

My observation is the ENS/64K SIM solution is a band-aid that Cingluar is rolling out at their customers' expense. Once the networks are merged, ENS will be unnecessary and probably obsolete.

I'd prefer if they would just max out the effort to merge all towers in to one MMC which would provide the maximum benefit to all users, Orange, Blue, and new subscribers.

--jeff


Posted by: Mango808

Quote:
Originally posted by jefe
IMHO, this is a big dis-incentive for me to change to Orange.

I occasionally, but seldom, find it beneficial to manually switch carriers here in the States. But in Europe...I use that feature all the time.
In the 32K SIM, if you go on a non-US network, you gain back the network selection menu and can use it. Been hearing rumors that the 64K SIM may still block network selection even on foreign networks so that Cingular controls who you roam with abroad. It's also been said that future World Phones from Cingular will no longer be unlocked out of the box to prevent the customer from using foreign Pre-paid or Post-paid SIMs abroad. That would mean unlocking services will be making more now unless Cingular can get better international rates such as down to under a buck per minute.
Quote:
My observation is the ENS/64K SIM solution is a band-aid that Cingluar is rolling out at their customers' expense. Once the networks are merged, ENS will be unnecessary and probably obsolete.
I'd prefer if they would just max out the effort to merge all towers in to one MMC which would provide the maximum benefit to all users, Orange, Blue, and new subscribers.
--jeff
I agree here that this ENS problem will only be a waste in effort and confuse more customers that won't need it to get it and when it won't be needed they will wonder why it was done or implemented in the first place. Just open the LAC of each tower to both customers everywhere as soon as possible then change all the towers to reflect the primary MNC.


Posted by: hf1khal

Quote:
Originally posted by Mango808
In the 32K SIM, if you go on a non-US network, you gain back the network selection menu and can use it. Been hearing rumors that the 64K SIM may still block network selection even on foreign networks so that Cingular controls who you roam with abroad. It's also been said that future World Phones from Cingular will no longer be unlocked out of the box to prevent the customer from using foreign Pre-paid or Post-paid SIMs abroad. That would mean unlocking services will be making more now unless Cingular can get better international rates such as down to under a buck per minute.
[B] I agree here that this ENS problem will only be a waste in effort and confuse more customers that won't need it to get it and when it won't be needed they will wonder why it was done or implemented in the first place. Just open the LAC of each tower to both customers everywhere as soon as possible then change all the towers to reflect the primary MNC.


Here is a recent actual excperience (less than a month ago) with a Cingualr V600, Cingular 32K SIM while traveling abroad. the provider that I had on the phone was lousy at that location, so I wanted to switch to the other provider, went and changed all to manual and still I could not see the others. On My ATTW phone (with the Blue SIM) I saw all and chose teh ne with the higher signal. The Cingular customer, went with a lousy reception for the remainder of the night.

So what I am saying here is that I experienced a whole diferent thing and there was no way around it.


Posted by: Mango808

Quote:
Originally posted by hf1khal
Here is a recent actual excperience (less than a month ago) with a Cingualr V600, Cingular 32K SIM while traveling abroad. the provider that I had on the phone was lousy at that location, so I wanted to switch to the other provider, went and changed all to manual and still I could not see the others. On My ATTW phone (with the Blue SIM) I saw all and chose teh ne with the higher signal. The Cingular customer, went with a lousy reception for the remainder of the night.

So what I am saying here is that I experienced a whole diferent thing and there was no way around it.
Was the Cingular activated on the East Coast or West Coast? Some have said since the West Coast Cingular was GSM from the start, they have more international roaming options offered to them than the East Coast activation. As for AT&T, they have always tried to get the most variations of roaming for their customers. Hopefully, Cingular inherited them now and can get better rates.


Posted by: hf1khal

Quote:
Originally posted by Mango808
Was the Cingular activated on the East Coast or West Coast? Some have said since the West Coast Cingular was GSM from the start, they have more international roaming options offered to them than the East Coast activation. As for AT&T, they have always tried to get the most variations of roaming for their customers. Hopefully, Cingular inherited them now and can get better rates.


The Cingular account was activated in the east coast, Florida to be exact. And yes ATTW seems to have had the best for int'l roaming and I wish Cingular implements all of Blues good points. That is one thing that will leave me on the blue side wfor as long as I cana dn if they don't fix that, them I am off to another provider (most likely back to T Mobile). But I realy hope they don't mess things up as I am a very happy Blue customer.


Posted by: CelticKuja

Barely on topic, I know, but bear with me...
How do you know which network ID you are on? I can't find this anywhere within my T616.


Posted by: votnet

With new 64K sim, the alfa tag is always showing Cingular, however I think I found a way to determine whether it is Cingular Blue (or others) or Orange network:

On my Nokia 6230b I can create and turn on custom Operator Logo. However, this is only possible when on home network. So if your phopne is on Orange network - it shows your custom logo, but if it is on Blue or any other, it shows "Cingular".

(Before merger, I have used blank Operator Logo, so when on Cingular Network, it didn't show any alpha tag, and if on other network it would show "Cingular Extend".
I used MobiMB to put custom Operator Logo).


Posted by: lowspeed

I was wondering...

what happens when your on a call and the signal is too low. So lets say you are on an Orange tower and then It picks up a tmobile tower...

Does the call get dropped ? if not how they they keep the continous call between providers ?


Thanks !


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by lowspeed
what happens when your on a call and the signal is too low. So lets say you are on an Orange tower and then It picks up a tmobile tower...
Does the call get dropped ? if not how they they keep the continous call between providers ?


Unless you are in an area where an inter-carrier handoff had been setup before hand (which sometimes happens along major highways where one provicers coverage ends in a metro area, they will setup a handoff with a rural provider so that while driving out of town your call won't drop)

But for the most part, yes, if your signal gets to low and there is not another tower on the same company as yours, the call will drop.


Posted by: mohanb

Hello,

I own a T637 on Cingular for a few months. When I got this phone, I found out that my phone would rather say "No Service" rather than hook up to AT&T network at my brother's house. I called and complained, then answer I got simply was, "In your home area, you are not allowed to roam onto AT&T network!" That sucked especially coupled with network selection completely disabled.

I called and got the OTA done (after going through a CS rep who acted that there was no such a thing and I was too dumb to ask for such a thing). Hopefully, it will be able to pick the signal when cingular signal actually disappears.

Thanks for all the info.
Mohan


Posted by: futureMD

Quote:
Originally posted by mohanb
Hello,

I own a T637 on Cingular for a few months. When I got this phone, I found out that my phone would rather say "No Service" rather than hook up to AT&T network at my brother's house. I called and complained, then answer I got simply was, "In your home area, you are not allowed to roam onto AT&T network!" That sucked especially coupled with network selection completely disabled.

I called and got the OTA done (after going through a CS rep who acted that there was no such a thing and I was too dumb to ask for such a thing). Hopefully, it will be able to pick the signal when cingular signal actually disappears.

Thanks for all the info.
Mohan
Please post later how things go. Are you able to get an AT&T signal now? Also, please post where you're from. It helps us to see where AT&T LACs are/are not opened up yet. Thanks.


Posted by: mohanb

I most certainly will post my findings, as soon as I wander on to the place where there was no reception before.

I am in the SF Bay area... my home is in Palo Alto, and my brother's is in South San Jose.

Thanks,
Mohan


Posted by: futureMD

Quote:
Originally posted by mohanb
I most certainly will post my findings, as soon as I wander on to the place where there was no reception before.

I am in the SF Bay area... my home is in Palo Alto, and my brother's is in South San Jose.

Thanks,
Mohan
Cool. My mom grew up in San Jose and even went to San Jose State. My grandfather worked at Lockheed in Sunnyvale.


Posted by: dkhomdds

I had another 64K NYC 890150 Sim in my hand today, and looked at the priority list.

310-150 is still home

#1 310-410
#2 310-150
#3 310-170
etc....

AT&T wireless 310-380 is at the #5 spot
T-mobile 310-260 is not on the list at all......

So from what I understand this 64K NYC Sim likes to use the "Blue" network, I assume that even if T-mo is not on the list if available the phone will still regi on it......

my $0.02's


Posted by: lowspeed

how do u check the priority ?




Quote:
Originally posted by dkhomdds
I had another 64K NYC 890150 Sim in my hand today, and looked at the priority list.

310-150 is still home

#1 310-410
#2 310-150
#3 310-170
etc....

AT&T wireless 310-380 is at the #5 spot
T-mobile 310-260 is not on the list at all......

So from what I understand this 64K NYC Sim likes to use the "Blue" network, I assume that even if T-mo is not on the list if available the phone will still regi on it......

my $0.02's



Posted by: dkhomdds

Quote:
Originally posted by lowspeed
how do u check the priority ?



My v600 has been seem_Edited....

I small corection, T-mo will be used if there are no signals from AT&T....


Posted by: benfun99

Is there any downside to having a 64k simm in a V551. I'm in the New Orleans area where we have both Cingular and ATT, but the Cingular coverage has always been much better. Thanks.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by benfun99
Is there any downside to having a 64k simm in a V551. I'm in the New Orleans area where we have both Cingular and ATT, but the Cingular coverage has always been much better. Thanks.


there is a possiblity you would have a downside since some 64K SIMS have reported to not play nice with non-ENS capable, however I DO NOT know which phones are non-ENS capable, so your mileage may vary


Posted by: rip1125

Newbie poster here, but long time follower......

From my experience in the Queens NYC market... I picked up a 64k sim for my RAZR. Here's what I found out rather quickly, the area that I am in has a very poor AT&T signal. I had 1 bar of signal strength and was unable to place or receive any calls. I lucky had kept the CS on the phone with me so he could reactivate my original 32K which immediately brought my signal strength back up to full (using T-Mo towers).

So in my case the 64K sim was a complete bust.

Lucky I only paid $7 for the sim. Hope my 2 cents helps.


Posted by: futureMD

Quote:
Originally posted by rip1125
Newbie poster here, but long time follower......

From my experience in the Queens NYC market... I picked up a 64k sim for my RAZR. Here's what I found out rather quickly, the area that I am in has a very poor AT&T signal. I had 1 bar of signal strength and was unable to place or receive any calls. I lucky had kept the CS on the phone with me so he could reactivate my original 32K which immediately brought my signal strength back up to full (using T-Mo towers).

So in my case the 64K sim was a complete bust.

Lucky I only paid $7 for the sim. Hope my 2 cents helps.
Wow, you have got to be the only person who has reported that problem. TMO over Cingular Blue?!? j/k

It may not be a complete bust. You may find that the 64K SIM would be a good move later on when the networks are better integrated. (Hopefully) your phone will eventually prefer the stronger signal.

It seems the best method to get the best signal available is to have a hex edited vXXX phone with the manual network select option available. Then you can camp on either network you prefer.


Posted by: benfun99

How do you get you "Hex" edited?


Posted by: futureMD

http://xlr8.us/hofo - has everything you need

http://www.howardforums.com/showthr...threadid=396985 - good thread with program to hex edit your phone.


Posted by: powertoburn

Can the network control the start of "sim services"?

If I use the 64K sim in SE T68, T610, T616, T630, T637 once the phone has been on for about 40 seconds - I would hear an error tone beep. This would repeat itself every 40 seconds or so for aprox 4 times. This only started happening after I got the 64K sim.

Tonight, I decided to use my SE T637 again after I turn it on I no longer hear the beeps. The same go for the sim in the other SE phones.

In Nokia phones I would be prompted to "Allow SIM to send a message" this also stopped this evening in these phones.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by powertoburn
Can the network control the start of "sim services"?


I had not heard that one way or the other


Posted by: powertoburn

I think when the phone registers with the network - and IMEI is reported - then the network can determine if ENS phone or not. Then start the "sim services"

It seems non ENS phones such as Nokia 6230 that use to say "WAIT" once phone is powered on no longer do that.

On my Nokia 7210 - I use to be able to turn off "confirm sim services" now it seems the option is greyed out and it says sim has no sim services.

All I can say I am now glad I can use my older phones with 64K sim


Posted by: PhillipD76

Can anyone list here what phones the Cingular sells currently that DO have ENS support.

Also where can we look up if ENS is supported on a certain phone. I have looked at specs on phones on the manufacturers sites and no list an ENS support status.

I don't believe and answer to this is on the forum anywhere. At least not that the search can find.


Posted by: Mango808

Quote:
Originally posted by PhillipD76
Can anyone list here what phones the Cingular sells currently that DO have ENS support.
I don't believe and answer to this is on the forum anywhere. At least not that the search can find.
You won't find a definitive answer to exactly which ones are ENS or not. Some have been mentioned by Reps that see them listed as being ENS while other recent released phones in the last month or so are ENS compatible. Motorola V3, V551, v220 and MPX-220 are said to be. The Nokia 6230b is compatible. One of the LG models is also listed as ENS. It was also mentioned that all new phones coming out after January will be ENS.

From my opinion and stance on this is that I will still keep my 32K SIM's from both Cingular and AT&T since it won't make a difference to me which phone I use or which network I use. I still have access to the network whether I have or don't have the 64K SIM anyway.


Posted by: PhillipD76

The reason why I ask is because I plan on getting a 6230 and I have read posts on here saying it is compatible and then some others that say is is not. I hope you are right.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mango808
The Nokia 6230b is compatible.



Posted by: Mango808

Quote:
Originally posted by PhillipD76
The reason why I ask is because I plan on getting a 6230 and I have read posts on here saying it is compatible and then some others that say is is not. I hope you are right.
I don't have a 64K SIM since I'm out of my market anyway. The other 6230b users that have it say it works in the phone. They get the same "beeps" when they turn it on and then it registers. Now it seems after a few times the "beeps" no longer happen since the phone apparently has the updates. Either that or they turned off the ENS to try and fix it so it does work properly.


Posted by: powertoburn

According to the corp store sales rep - he said the current 6230b is not ENS but a newer batch will be.

He said there is an ENS SKU and non ENS SKU.

He also stated the warehouse right now does not have ENS SKU in stock for order.


Posted by: ejhines

12/9/04
I just returned from my Cingular store.
They have two simms:
1. 32k simm used before A t & T
2. 64k simm uses both Cingular and A t & T towers

I took my brand new, unlocked HP 6315 phone in, and their 64k simm will not work, we tried 3 of them.

They then put the old 32k simm in, and it worked right away, we tried 2 of them.

the 64k simm results in "invalid simm".

They called several Cingular stores, and tech support, and were told that the old style 32k simms were no longer available. So if you are a new Cingular customer, as I am, you cannot use the HP 6315 telephone with Cingular (since they have no more 32k simms).


Posted by: Mango808

Quote:
Originally posted by ejhines
They called several Cingular stores, and tech support, and were told that the old style 32k simms were no longer available. So if you are a new Cingular customer, as I am, you cannot use the HP 6315 telephone with Cingular (since they have no more 32k simms).
You can still find some 32K SIM cards on ebay. Just make sure you get the one that can be activated on your account according to your market.

8931017 - PacBell CA/NV

8901150 - BellSouth Mobilty DCS NC/SC (some GA/TN)

8910141 - Most other Cingular Markets.


Posted by: Justin5117

Does anyone know if the z500a is a ENS capable phone?


Posted by: tamu911

how can i tell if my phone is ENS capable...i just bought it yesterday, and it is a 3120 (nokia)

thanks yall!


Posted by: transeau

Is there a utility that I can download for the MPx220 that will show me the network it's using?

Only thing I ever see on mine is "Cingular" or "Searching", even in an area with VERY GOOD AT&T coverage.

I was expecting my new MPx220 with a 64k SIM to work at my parents, where there AT&T GMS Phones work perfectly, and all I get is "Searching"

Any ideas?


Posted by: kilo

Hey guys, I'm working on getting a list of which phones are ENS and which aren't, give me 48 hours

Quote:
Originally posted by transeau
Only thing I ever see on mine is "Cingular" or "Searching", even in an area with VERY GOOD AT&T coverage.
I just want to make sure I understand you correctly... When it is likely your phone is picking blue you want some way of knowing for sure that its a blue network?

Try dialing an incomplete phone number and pressing send. Its likely that the error messages are different

Aside from that I do not know of a specific program. Try posting up in the cingular or att or motorla forums


Posted by: shaggymatt

Apparently the 5600 is not ENS compatible. After much digressing, I got Cingular to switch my account to prefer Blue towers as they are a stronger player here. Previously sitting at my desk on Blue, I had all my cars. After migrating, my 5600 had no bars or one bar sitting here at my desk even after they reprogrammed it. I then decided to drop the (64K) SIM into the V220 that was provided for my account migration, and it was preferring Blue as I had all the bars.


Posted by: transeau

Quote:
Originally posted by kilo

I just want to make sure I understand you correctly... When it is likely your phone is picking blue you want some way of knowing for sure that its a blue network?


Exactly. I found a program called "TinyGPS" which is able to change profiles based on the Cell ID's it is comunicating with. (Cool idea... auto forward your calls to a land line with at home or work). Unfortunatly, it doesn't like my phone.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by transeau
Exactly. I found a program called "TinyGPS" which is able to change profiles based on the Cell ID's it is comunicating with. (Cool idea... auto forward your calls to a land line with at home or work). Unfortunatly, it doesn't like my phone.


that is a cool idea, but still the only way i know how is to try that "dial a 6 digit number" trick to try and still tell the systems apart


Posted by: boomer116

Quote:
Originally posted by transeau
Is there a utility that I can download for the MPx220 that will show me the network it's using?

Any ideas?


Transeau: I was searching for the same utility and couldn't find one for my MPx220. What I did find is that the engineering codes for the MPx200 also work on the MPx220. To enter engineering mode enter: *#**364# <send> . This will give you access to the engineering menu. Under the menu, select "RR">"Cell Information">"Service Cell Info". It will display information about the current tower that you are on. At the bottom of the page you will see the mcc/mnc info...380 = Blue, 410 (at least for me) Orange. To exit engineering mode, Under the Options menu select "Quit"...I'm scared to do anything else in the engineering menu as I've heard it can really screw things up if you don't know what you're doing...


Now my question:

Does anyone know if a new activation done in an Orange store would be homed to Blue? The reason I ask is that I just got my MPx220 a week ago and have had intermittent weak/no signals mixed with full strength...After figuring out how to determine the current tower on my handset I found that the strong signal is from an Orange tower and the weak signals are from two alternating Blue towers. On my drive to work (15 miles) I found that I never left the Blue network...this leads me to believe that my handset is homed on Blue even though I bought it at an Orange store. Is this possible? Would they do this for load balancing? Can I have them change it to home on Orange? Btw, I live in the Lowell, MA area (northwest of Boston) and have read in other threads that there is really good Orange coverage in the area.

Thanks in advance.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by boomer116
Is this possible? Would they do this for load balancing? Can I have them change it to home on Orange?


yes, yes, yes

Call 866-Cingula and tell them of your coverage woes, tech support should be able to assist you


Posted by: boomer116

Kilo, Thanks for the help and for starting this thread...It has been a great source of info for me!


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by mspingeld
Is there a way to tell which phones are ENS capable and which are not?
There is a list, as far as I know, me and like 2 other people know about it.

If I say "not all" that means that some are and some aren't, not sure if yours is or not? Call CS

when I say "all" I mean "all the ones sold directly to you from Cingular" I make no claims to eBay phones or those purchased from another provider (including former ATT Wireless)

when I say "none" I mean "none currently being sold or have been sold by Cingular as of today 2004, dec 21st were ENS capable"
Quote:
Originally posted by shortyd999
When are they suppose to send out this OTA update?? On the 15th?? And does anyone know if the V551 is an ENS phone??
Mot V551 all ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by Rube
I'm not too concerned about the ENS thing, because it doesn't seem to have a real effect on me as an end user. I also am aware of the $150 deal, but even with that, the Cingular 6620
Nokia 6620 not all ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by Sigifrith
I have a locked AT&T V-600 coming thru eBay
Mot V600 none are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by futureMD
I'm glad that my 6230 turned out to have ENS.
Nokia 6230 not all ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by Hi-Tek
since my T637 apparently is not ENS capable
SE T637 not all ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by REAL
is the samsung e316 ENS capapble
I can't find this e316 you speak of, but:

Samsung E317 not all ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by hf1khal
In my case the V3 is already capapble
Mot V3 RAZR are all ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by EdwardP
On my Cingular KIC (Nokia 3100)
Quote:
Originally posted by robwormald
just thougth i'd point this out, but just about every phone in my store is ENS capable - nokia 3100 and 6010 - only way to tell really without knowning the corect SKU is that after the model number it actually SAYS ENS on the box. so if you're buying a phone, see if they can find one with that on the box.
Nokia 3100 none are ENS capable
Nokia 6100 none are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by mspingeld
Is the Siemens SX66(Imate PDA2K) ENS capable? How about the MPX220?
Siemens SX66 none all ENS capable
Mot MPX220 all are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by Rube I want to use my unlocked 6620 with a Cing SIM (eventually)
Nokia 6620 not all are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by shaggymatt
w/ my Audiovox SMT 5600
Audiovox is not listed
Quote:
Originally posted by CelticKuja
I can't find this anywhere within my T616.
SE T616 none are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by powertoburn
On my Nokia 7210
Nokia 7210 none are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by Mango808
Motorola V3, V551, v220 and MPX-220
Mot V220 not all are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by ejhines
I took my brand new, unlocked HP 6315 phone in, and their 64k simm will not work, we tried 3 of them.
HP not listed
Quote:
Originally posted by Justin5117
Does anyone know if the z500a is a ENS capable phone?
SE Z500a all are ENS capable
Quote:
Originally posted by tamu911
it is a 3120 (nokia)
Nokia 3120 not all are ENS capable

*whew* that was a long call to CS


Posted by: Justin5117

My 6230 has a build date of December 2004...anyone think that phone is ENS capable?


Posted by: Justin5117

Well turns out since my 12/04 Build Date 6230 is NOT ENS enabled. Oh well.


Posted by: powertoburn

What's the SKU on the box?

Is there ENS next to the model number?

12/04 6230 already out

I am waiting to get another 6230 - I returned the one I had due to BT tethering problem.

Thanks KILO for posting the list.

Seems some network side improvements were made - now when I use my SE T637 with 64K sim I no longer hear the error tones after startup due to the fact the phone is NOT ENS.

I have not noticed decreased battery life with the T637 and my phone will still go onto BLUE


Posted by: Justin5117

Accoriding to kilo any IMEI starting with these....below

Nokia 6230:
3533************ non ENS
3550************ ENS


Posted by: shortyd999

What about the V180? My sister just got one and it came with a 64K simcard but the box doesnt mention ENS.


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by shortyd999
What about the V180? My sister just got one and it came with a 64K simcard but the box doesnt mention ENS.


Mot V180 not all are ENS capable


Posted by: skytrack

This doesn't make any sense. I finally got a bug-free 6230 from Cingular that was manufactured 12/2004 and according to the IMEI list posted, it isn't ENS capable.

How is it possible that Cingular is STUPID ENOUGH to manufacture non-ENS capable phones THIS MONTH!? Is this list legit?


Posted by: kb61751

I have been reading this post, and its very interesting. I have a Cingular V551 from Cingular. I am also a new customer in the Mid west area. I have seem edited the phone, where now I have the ability to change networks/ select which one it uses. However I just tested that if I select AT&T and then go in the basement (no signal for AT&T) it will automaticly revert back to Cingular. However if I say up stairs where the signal is there, but weak, it will stay on AT&T. Here in Missouri, there is still Cingular and AT&T towers. I look at the alpha tag from the towers, not the sim. Just my 2 cents worth.


Posted by: oo3

i live in oregon which DID not have cingular before the merger.

1. do you suspect that cingular will only sell ENS phones here because there are only ATT towers here?

2. is there something on the screen that says that i'm switching between cingular orange/blue?


Posted by: Justin5117

1. No
2. No


Posted by: kilo

Quote:
Originally posted by oo3
i live in oregon which DID not have cingular before the merger.

1. do you suspect that cingular will only sell ENS phones here because there are only ATT towers here?

2. is there something on the screen that says that i'm switching between cingular orange/blue?
that is the exact reason to get an ENS phone. The display on the front should always read cingular. Some people have modified their phones so that they can know which is which. I don't personally know how to do that though


Posted by: kb61751

I noticed that when I change networks, about 6 minutes later if I am not using the phone the network goes back to Cingular. I have a 32k sim, and a V551, is this the ENS working?


Posted by: hf1khal

Quote:
Originally posted by kb61751
I noticed that when I change networks, about 6 minutes later if I am not using the phone the network goes back to Cingular. I have a 32k sim, and a V551, is this the ENS working?


The phone is usualy set to search for networks every 6 minutes. So in your case when it makes the search it then chooses the main network instead as it sees it as available. I have done some research on the ENS and it does not seem to be as it has been widely known. From what I found out is that the 32 SIM will function just the same as the 64 SIM however, the 64 is supposes to be capable of having a larger capacity to handle more stored tele numbers and a phone book. The funny part about it is that no one can see the extra capacity but that might be because the people who have are not using an ENS capable phone. So if any one has the 2 here may be they can check about the SIM storage capacity and report. We will all find out in due time that we realy don't need it for anything other than masking the name of the network while roaming. So if we roam onto a T Mobile n