vB Easy Archive - Has SE lost their momentum in this space?

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Has SE lost their momentum in this space?
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Posted by: cleveman

As an early-adopter of the p800 in the US, I have to say I've been terribly disappointed by SE in the past 18 months. The p900 was a minor-update to the p800 that I couldn't bring myself to embrace, the p910 sounded exciting but the release of the phone with no RIM support (the one reason that would have driven me to spend $900) is MORE than unnerving.

Meanwhile, the PPC space is exploding, RIM is coming out with significantly more main-stream options, and SE is watching the space that they largely pioneered be taken over.

Thoughts?

Posted by: BillB

Talk about losing momentum: You only need to look as far as this forum to see that during the last six months, the UIQ forum has slowed down tremendously while the Pocket PC forum has exploded.

I bought both the P800 and P900 early at hugely inflated prices, but the P910 seemed like too little too late, so I stayed away. But the biggest disappoints for me were:

- SE immediately stopping support for P800 as soon as the P900 was launched. When they launched the P800, I remember SE saying it could be updated long into the future, and I think they even talked about online updates.

- Seeing that the P900 inherited many of the P800s bugs/flaws.

- Learning that the P900 could have supported duo pros all along but SE intentionally limited it to 128MB in the firmware, and ...

- The unfulfilled Blackberry promise for the P910 and even the P900 (they announced it for the P900 in February 2004)

I really like the P900, but now I am waiting for the MpX, or if I lose my patience, I might pick-up a PDA2K.

Posted by: Baseballfanz

Yeah, Pocket PC seems to have lots of 3rd party supports. Everything written is mostly for Pocket PC. I will probably look into getting something with P PC os.

Posted by: firebirdgtr

exactly....if it wasn't the moto a1000 has a pretty crap camera, i would got that already (no point for me to upgrade to a similar thing but w/ a not-so-better camera)

waiting for the new xda IIi and nokia's 7610

if either of them hv good review ..... i will go for them if SE dont' release something better than that barely upgraded P910i...

Posted by: omegajb

PPC support wasn't always as good as it is now. I've been a user of Pocket PC since they called it Windows CE and loved it, but applications were hard to find up until a few years ago.
I think the P9xx series would dominate the market if they would drop Symbian and move to PPC.
What I love about the phone is the dial pad and the touch screen. I don't know of too many PPC phones that have that features.

I can't use the keypad to text or add an appointment to save my life and if I can use a stylis or keyboard that makes my life a lot easier.

The PPC syncs so much more effectively with a computer than Symbian just because the same company made them.

Where Symbian has an edge is I don't have to reset or use task manager to close applications that are drawing from my system memory.

One last thing, if it had WI-FI I would be happier than a pig in s***

The P910 is hands down so much better than the P900, it looks like they fixed a lot of the bugs in the 800/900 series.

Posted by: richy240

Quote:

Originally posted by zykur
The P910 is hands down so much better than the P900, it looks like they fixed a lot of the bugs in the 800/900 series.

Yeah, right.

Posted by: omegajb

Quote:

Originally posted by richy240
Yeah, right.

I haven't had any issues, the screen is brighter the keyboard rocks and the software seems more stable.

What problems are you having?

Posted by: AdmiralAK

I was an early adopter of the P800, spent about $1012 on the day it came out to get it from the UK with 2 day FedEx.

When the P900 came out, minor update, not worth it. I had high hopes for the P910 but it disappointed me too with a cramped keyboard and lack of Quadband (well lack of UMTS and WiFi too but I will overlook those for now given that I am not in an area that has UMTS and WiFi is only at home for the moment).

The only life in this forum is the Moto A1000 which is just BEAUTIFUL and I would buy it in a heart beat IFF it had Quadband and EDGE ( again I would love WiFi but not absolutely necessary at this point, in half a year maybe).

The lack of applications is not really what is killing the UIQ, it is the lack of innovation. Look at the Arima unit, it is almost like the P910 - blah -
SE was trully the leader and it started a revolution, but now they are falling behind.

PocketPC phones have exploded because of innovation and variety.
You can get
* Quadband GSM
* EDGE
* Built-in Keyboards that are not cramped
* WiFi
* RIM client coming soon
* who knows what in the future...

Posted by: nutsnbolts

It's tough for the SE910 to compete w/ imate pda2k's , mdaIII 's etc. Same money , more bang for the buck.IMHO.

Posted by: charlie

Bear in mind that both the Blue Angel (PDA2K) and the HP 6315 have serious bluetooth problems as well as other assorted troubles. The 6315 in particular appears to be very buggy. The p910i is rock solid. Granted, it is not as broadly supported as the pocket pc phones, but at least it does what it is advertised to do.

Charlie

Posted by: langdona

I think posting about PXXX's have dropped because theres not a lot to say. I find my P900 to be a rock solid device and have the basic software on it that I need, hence I dont have much to say about it. Forums like this tend to talk about problems with devices not that they're happy with them.

I agree that the upgrades to the series have been small. They P900 to P910 is not enough for me. I will probably upgrade when they bring out a 3G version. However I would have thought P800 to P910 would be worthwile.

Posted by: WereSHARK

The P series phones, IMHO, are great phones and so-so PDAs. Those PPC phone are great PDAs and so-so phones. Of course I'm just generalizing.

I have to admit that I honestly wish there was more popular software support for the UIQ. I often envy PPC and Palm OS simply for some SPECIALITY software that isn't currently available for the UIQ. If I knew more programming, I sure as hell would port some of the titles over. (Mind you I have all the "cooler" games and major "must-have" applications for my P910i, and they make me extremely happy and keep me functional on a day-to-day basis. I just miss some of the specialty apps like Vindigo & ePocrates that was available on my palm PDA)

Sony Ericsson is running abit on the slow side the last year or two, with regard to keep up-to-date with trends..., especially with their vga camera (should have been at least a 1.3MP in the P series, kinda like how Nokia and Motorola was with the whole color screen phones (or lack there of) about 4-5 years back. Or how Nokia didn't wanna make any clamshell phones, or how Motorola couldn't make anything BUT clamshell phones.

All things aside.. it takes a bit for all the handset makers, especially SE, right now.. to figure out what's right.. and play catch up. So perhaps a year or two in their next or next-next release of the P series phones.. they'll have the additional options of quad-band GSM, with EDGE, with Wi-Fi, with dual 2 or 5MP cameras, with titanium shell unit, with non flipping keyboard.. cuz if not.. I'm sure SOMEONE else will! and they will be the stars of the show!

Posted by: Bengalboy

UIQ died last year.... read my "Road Warrior" thread when I said that the iMate was far superior to the P800/P900 and that the future was Pocket PC for the "Bleeding Edge"...

http://howardforums.com/showthread....road+%2Bwarrior

That thread was quite "HOT" and brought out some very ill will toward myself from some members. But a year later, myself and Rubicon are no longer the only members in the Pocket PC forum, and most of the members defending the P800/900 are now carrying Pocket PCs and acting like they always owned one.

The truth is that Symbian is "Dead" as the "Bleeding Edge" device. It started last year and will be finished in the next couple years. It makes a great "Smartphone" but not the best "Convergence Device"... My little MpX220 has more processing and memory power than the current P910i and MicroSoft made it much more phone like in Smartphone 2003 SE OS.

As another member pointed out above.....SE would be well advised to follow Motorola and start developing its own Pocket PC and Smartphone devices....even Linux which was a very good OS compared to the current UIQ.

However, I have it on the best of information that nothing is coming from SE in a ground breaking device for some time. So, quit speculating about the P1000.....it will already be outdated by Pocket PC by the time it arrives with UIQ 3...

Posted by: One of One

Quote:

Originally posted by Bengalboy
UIQ died last year.... read my "Road Warrior" thread when I said that the iMate was far superior to the P800/P900 and that the future was Pocket PC for the "Bleeding Edge"...

http://howardforums.com/showthread....road+%2Bwarrior

That thread was quite "HOT" and brought out some very ill will toward myself from some members. But a year later, myself and Rubicon are no longer the only members in the Pocket PC forum, and most of the members defending the P800/900 are now carrying Pocket PCs and acting like they always owned one.

The truth is that Symbian is "Dead" as the "Bleeding Edge" device. It started last year and will be finished in the next couple years. It makes a great "Smartphone" but not the best "Convergence Device"... My little MpX220 has more processing and memory power than the current P910i and MicroSoft made it much more phone like in Smartphone 2003 SE OS.

As another member pointed out above.....SE would be well advised to follow Motorola and start developing its own Pocket PC and Smartphone devices....even Linux which was a very good OS compared to the current UIQ.

However, I have it on the best of information that nothing is coming from SE in a ground breaking device for some time. So, quit speculating about the P1000.....it will already be outdated by Pocket PC by the time it arrives with UIQ 3...

I agree with that 100%. I got into a pretty healthy debate about Windows Mobile (WM) vs. Symbian with another fellow on another board. I also debated with someone regarding WM vs. Palm (but that's another story).

Of course, I slammed him, LOL... But seriously, what could someone's argument be from an angle like his? Naturally, Symbian militants aren't any different than Palm militants: Either they know full well that the technology they believe in is lagging and losing but they remain hard-pressed to concede to the obvious truth of it (if they ever do), or they just simply don't get it, until it's so blatantly obvious that they can no longer deny it. Truthfully, there are few really good software titles for the P900/910, for example. The power, flexibility, and choices just aren't there with Symbian like they are with WM.

WM is easier to develop for, there's better support for it overall - backed by the most powerful tech company in the world, and there's no denying that it has far more support in the enterprise than Symbian. Does Symbian even have any kind of real presence in the enterprise? Not that I'm aware of.

Convergence is upon us and is absolutely the future. And WM is part of that future. WM is already the dominant OS out there in the handheld market (they took over 50% of the market from Palm) and will be in the convergence/smartphone market.

With Microsoft, it's never a matter of "will they dominate?", it's just a matter of "when?". If WM wasn't meeting my needs, I'd have a problem with that, but WM is the best mobile OS out there for so many reasons, so I'm happy to see it growing.

Posted by: AdmiralAK

Just to play devil's advocate, Symbian has been in this mobile OS game longer than MS and has been doing quite well. They are not without problems though. The problems that plagued microsoft (having its OS run on multiple processors and having the software made for it be specific for a processor) is what Symbian is running into now, sort of.

Symbian is segmented into Series 60 and UIQ (when it comes to versions that many vendors can use) , and Series 80 and Series 90 ( Nokia proprietary). As a software developer you need to pick one and develop, especially if you are a small time developer. What companies need to do is this:

* Make the UIQ and Series 60 better
* Release new versions of these OSes
* Develop their own software for the platforms
* Provide incentives for individuals to make cross-platform versions of their Symbian software
* Provide Incentives for individuals to Port software from Palm and Windows Mobile

(Incidentaly linux needs to do some of these because they too have fragmented platforms and few software compared to other mobile OSes).

Now I have to clarify something that Bengal said. COmpared to the P910 his imate 2 is more powerful. Don't just compare processor speeds, all this stuff is relative and we get into "mac vs pc" kinds of conversations and flamewars. I do have to say though that yesterday I was browsing ebay on Opera on my P800 and I kept getting "not enough memory to proceed" errors - now that's not good.

Newed versions of UIQ smartphones need to have more memory for programs, more storage and more processor power in order to compete. One of the principal reasons that I wanted a UIQ phone and not a series 60 was that I wanted more of a PDA and not a Nokia 7110 on steroids (the nokia 7110 was Nokia's first WAP phones AFAIK)

Finally my candid and personal opinion is that apple needs to get into this OS game. PalmOS sales are going down - time for an aquisition

- Apple had a SUPER nice PDA OS, the NewtonOS, now add Darwin, BeOS, PalmOS and a few other apple technologies into the mix and you have a nice Smartphone (convergence device) OS

Posted by: nutsnbolts

Quote:

Originally posted by charlie
Bear in mind that both the Blue Angel (PDA2K) and the HP 6315 have serious bluetooth problems as well as other assorted troubles. The 6315 in particular appears to be very buggy. The p910i is rock solid. Granted, it is not as broadly supported as the pocket pc phones, but at least it does what it is advertised to do.

Charlie

The bluetooth bug is pretty minor and has been addressed. The HP is another story. The cincher is WiFi . Once you've had it , no going back. And the screen on the PDA2K - gorgeous. Assorted problems? Not mine .Anyhoo...

Posted by: charlie

At the risk of allowing this topic to go too far afield, I beg to differ regarding the continuing bluetooth bugs on the pda2k. It is almost unusable with many headsets and we still await a fix from the manufacturer. Visit Club Imate and you will see the droves of unhappy customers.

It is a race between Carrier Devices and HP to see who can be
more effective in planting their heads firmly in the sand

Charlie

Posted by: BillB

Well, concerning bt, SE should be ashamed too. The P800 and P900 have bt issues, and from what I hear, the P910 doesn't have bt perfect either.

Charlie, if I had to choose between the phones listed in your profile soley on the basis of bt stability, I would go for your T68.

Posted by: omegajb

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BillB
[B]Well, concerning bt, SE should be ashamed too. The P800 and P900 have bt issues, and from what I hear, the P910 doesn't have bt perfect either.

I can't speak about the P800 but the P900 and 910 are hands down better when it comes to BT. I've tried almost every company and SE has the best BT, the worst would have to Motorola speaking about un-usable.

Posted by: BillB

I only have SE bt phones, so I don't know about the others. If SE is the best, then I worry that bt generally is less stable than we are lead to believe it should be.

My biggest bt issue with the P800/P900 is, when I make/receive calls without a headset while the phone's bt is on, there is about 5-8 seconds of silence as the phone tries to connect to a headset. This is frustrating for the me and the guy on the other end of the call (like my boss or clients). So, I have to turn bt on & off several times per day depending on whether I want to use a headset, car handsfree, or not. That's just unnacceptable for a phone.

This behavior did not happen with Ericsson's first bt phones (R520m, T68), so why should it happen now? Lazy engineering, Lazy testing? If it happened on the P800, why wasn't it fixed for the P900?

So, I lose faith in SE, I don't buy the P910, and SE loses a customer (well, for more reasons than the experieince above).

If I come back to SE in the future, they will have to do a lot better than P800 - to - P900 - to - P910 product devlopments.

Posted by: Bengalboy

I owned the first P800 on the HoFo and supported that device for many months because it was the best on the market and truly one-of-a-kind at the time. Even so, its bluetooth implementation was far worse than the PDA2k at the time of release and for several months afterward....and the current evolution of the device....the P910i still suffers from line of sight issues.

In fact, the Motorola RaZr has by far the best bluetooth performance of any currently svailable handset....followed by the SE K700 and S700.

As with the P800, the PDA2k will have its bluetooth issues solved with a firmware update in time....but that still does not detract from its overall superior performance and abilities compared to the current UIQ handsets....

Posted by: BillB

Quote:

Originally posted by Bengalboy
I owned the first P800 on the HoFo and supported that device for many months because it was the best on the market and truly one-of-a-kind at the time.

And this brings us back to the point of the thread. SE's latest contender, the P910, is not a "one-of-a-kind", "bleeding edge" phone.

I also agree with Mark's comments about the Symbian / UIQ OS, and I believe the OS now is holding SE back. Symbian is a trusted, stable OS for phones, but Symbian/UIQ have a lot of catching-up to do if they want to match the robust feature set expected of new convergence devices.

Not to mention which OS is relatively lacking for developer support...

Posted by: richy240

Quote:

Originally posted by zykur
I haven't had any issues, the screen is brighter the keyboard rocks and the software seems more stable.

What problems are you having?

I don't have a P910, but I simply don't believe it. I have never seen SE fix ALL the problems between two versions of the same model-line of phones. Actually, I have seen new problems arise more times than not.

I love SE phones, but I don't have a lot of faith in their software.

I don't like Nokia phones, but I have yet to run into a software bug in their phones. (I have only had two, mind you.)

Posted by: TAWelsh

SE is a much different company than when the P800 was released. As soon as the big operators want "Bleeding Edge", then SE will be the second to market with it.

Hey Bengalboy!

Posted by: cleveman

some folks have hinted at this - but does the fact that SE has made only minor updates to the pXXX platform while maintaining a price-point that is 50% higher than competing devices ($900+ for p910 and $600 for the HP6315, for example) indicate that they aren't too interested in this market anymore?

one other observation - if the UIQ devices available on the market in US are markedly more expensive than their WM competition, UIQ has no hope. WM has too much market power to overcome if you're not willing to take a "less expensive alternative" approach...

for me personally, the only reason I haven't given up on UIQ and jumped to one of the WM devices is form-factor. I'm not crazy about any of the devices available today, becuase of the physical-aspects of them... if the Moto MPx materializes, i'll pay a silly amount for it - becuase of the form-factor - and any loyalty I had to SE/UIQ will be lost (until they come out with a better device

)

Posted by: Bengalboy

Whats up TA???

Haven't seen you around in some time on the HoFo...good to know your still alive out there. So, from your post I infer that SE 2 years ago was about taking chances and doing projects for the sake of developing technologies.... As I understand your post regarding SE in the present... the company has become more conservative and is more focused on providing what the carriers want instead of driving the carriers to support more advanced handsets????

Well, you know what I mean????/

Watch your mail this week....

Posted by: cmc0

Whoa, when was the last time I've been to the UIQ forum, TA, Bengal and you other guys must not be around!

But anyway, after the P900, I did try out the P910i but I really just gave up on UIQ and the P-series after that since they keyboard and screen was not worth it. Now, like Bengal, after the P-Series departure, I did make a move to the Windows scene, owning a HP 6315 and a Motorola Mpx220, but like the computer OS, the Pocket PC left much to be desired, with the 6315 frequently crashing, Wifi and BT hardly working and phone resetting every time I switched SIM cards. Mpx was'nt any better with 2 units having faulty speakers and frequent freezes while playing music in the background. Maybe I picked the wrong devices to test the Pocket PC OS (Imate may be the way to go?) but it left a horrible taste in my mouth reminding me of the Windows CE 2.11 days.

Now, what am I using today? Really,it's probally something most would not expect, but for my needs a Blackberry 7230 and a Archos AV420 PVP work nicely for me. The Blackberry is a champ over Symbian and Pocket PC in push e-mail/wireless syching, never freezes, plenty of apps and a useable keyboard in a small package. The Archos is also a champ, allowing me to view days of recorded TV shows, video,music pictures etc in the size of an iPod.

Now, back to what I was saying, for either the UIQ camp or Pocket PC side to win me over again, I would like to see a device not only packed with features beyond end like the imate's of today, but also a device that is stable as the RIM os, and provides the useablity found in a standard cell phone like the Px00 was able to do

End of rant!

Posted by: Bengalboy

Put CmCo down for a RaZrBerry.....after mine of course....

Posted by: bronco

mark, ive just bought an s700 and feel the need to go smartphone. these dumbphones are really bugging me out. anyway, after reading your posts about p900 i feel greatly discouraged in getting one. im just a student and cant afford a pda2k or even a XDAII, what you think I should do?

Posted by: cleveman

Quote:

Originally posted by cmc0
...for my needs a Blackberry 7230 and a Archos AV420 PVP work nicely for me. The Blackberry is a champ over Symbian and Pocket PC in push e-mail/wireless syching, never freezes, plenty of apps and a useable keyboard in a small package. The Archos is also a champ, allowing me to view days of recorded TV shows, video,music pictures etc in the size of an iPod.

Now, back to what I was saying, for either the UIQ camp or Pocket PC side to win me over again, I would like to see a device not only packed with features beyond end like the imate's of today, but also a device that is stable as the RIM os, and provides the useablity found in a standard cell phone like the Px00 was able to do

End of rant!

For the time-being, I'm with cmc0 on this. I'm looking at giving up the flexibility and "fun-factor" of the UIQ or WM platforms for the stability and function of the RIM 7100. Believe me, I would much prefer to be buying a p910 or Moto MPx but SE can't get their acto together on the RIM client and Moto has gone to ground on the release of the MPx... I can go out and drop $200 on the new BlackBerry and save my pennies for other mobile toys and a better handset down the road.

Posted by: BlackJ

(long time reader, 10th time poster)

Bottom line, SE is clearly taking a different direction strategically, leaving the heavy R&D work to others before making a clear decision...and spending valuable $$ on possible technical dead ends. Too bad for some, but causing a lot of us to consider and probe other avenues...not so bad overall...Proof that the "cell phone" is changing daily. I'll stick with what works (settled for the month old TREO 600) before making that next big purchase.