vB Easy Archive - Bell's Race to the Bottom

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Bell's Race to the Bottom
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Posted by: -V-

So our Bell rep came in today to explain to us the new price plans that Bell is instating come March 1st. After she was done, I just said "Wow." So basically, everything that made Bell different or special when compared with the other providers (Evenings from 8 VS Evenings from 9 on Rogers, the bonus long distance minutes which no one else offered, the All-in-One plan rates versus the indecipherable Rogers plan rates, Unlimited Mobile Browser VS everyone, Cancellation fees VS Telus' uncapped fees) is GONE.

And why? Because they're matching their competitors. Telus has an uncapped cancellation fee, so it's ok for Bell to change theirs from $300 to $400. Rogers' evenings start at 9, so Bell changed theirs to 9 as well. What the hell? WHY? Isn't the point of competition to somehow try to provide something different and more desirable than your competitors? Everybody has an exactly identical $25 Unlimited Incoming. Just about everybody (Telus excluded) has the same pricing plan for voice mail and called id. There is almost no variation in the cell phone plans in Canada. Not only that, but when someone takes away a feature (which everyone seems to be doing lately) then all the other providers follow suit.

It seems like Canadian cell phone providers are on a race to the bottom.

"Wow! (Company X) just got rid of half of their $xx's plans features, we should do the same!" What kind of ****ed-up logic is this!?

It's gotten to a point where it's possible (my friend did this) to get a cell phone and plan from an American provider, use it in Canada, and pay LESS than if they signed up with a Canadian provider! (This is with roaming and long-distance and all that being taken into account)

It really seems like the cell phone consumers in Canada are getting screwed.

Posted by: dirtyjeffer

your not being screwed...the free ride is over...and just so you know, the new plans start Monday Feb. 27th, not March 1st.

the problem was, Bell was spending a lot of money advertising the "All-In-One" theme, and value added extra's that were included with their plans...the response from most people was "I don't care, what are you going to give me for free"...so Bell is simply stripping their plans to be more competitive, as well as make it easier to compare "apples to apples" now...many people thought Bell was $10 more than the competition for the exact same plan, simply because they didn't know about the extras that Bell already included (addtional features, earlier off peak clock, SAF/911 fees and activation fees on some plans)...now there won't be that confusion...Bell is fed up with spending millions of dollars on advertising trying to "educate" the consumer, with little return on that investment...so, that program is scrapped...Bell's initial hope was that other carriers would follow suit with more "honest" advertising of prices, but they didn't, and it cost Bell a ton of business...if you can't beat them, join them.

Posted by: mlerner

Yeah Dirtyjeffer is right, the value added features that were added to the plans looked great but the majority of Canadian mobile customer don't care about that and after looking at the financial results for last year they were losing money so I think they had to change their plans and match the competitors.

Posted by: Bhagwan

I'm glad that I'm price and feature protected for pretty much the next 3 years

What a joke 9PM "evenings"

Posted by: SuperCM

Whoa, whoa, whoa... When you say Unlimited Mobile Browser, do you mean as being included with the current batch of AiO plans or the $5 Mobile Browser feature is no longer unlimited?

Posted by: Poochi

If I just signed up for the EP1 plan does this mean I'm going to lose it or can I keep it as long as I want?

Posted by: SuperCM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poochi

If I just signed up for the EP1 plan does this mean I'm going to lose it or can I keep it as long as I want?

You'll keep it. My plan has survived 8pm and I guess it'll be surviving 9pm. The changes will only affect new signups.

Posted by: DukeN

Bell won that race a long time ago. Arrogant corporation, devoid of innovation, never taking any chances in trying to introduce new products, doesn't care about customers. They'll probably have a half-*** attempt before number portability comes into effect trying not to lose a chunk or two of their business - Telus and Rogers currently IMO are light years ahead of Bell in the wireless division.

Posted by: sebastian406

What's happening in Canada? It would seem as all the providers get more subscibers and more revenue, they would offer better services. Instead prices are just going up, features are being taken away, etc.

In the States, its the opposite. Country Fido and City Fido are an example. Now City Fido isn't unlimited and it also has like 20x less coverave than before.

Posted by: dirtyjeffer

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Bell won that race a long time ago. Arrogant corporation, devoid of innovation, never taking any chances in trying to introduce new products, doesn't care about customers. They'll probably have a half-*** attempt before number portability comes into effect trying not to lose a chunk or two of their business - Telus and Rogers currently IMO are light years ahead of Bell in the wireless division.

pick up a book and read sometime...you will see that Bell is first to market many innovative new products and services...it is easier to see without those blinders of yours on.

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Telus and Rogers currently IMO are light years ahead of Bell in the wireless division.

BEll has/had some awesome Unlimited Options (WAP, DATA, MMS ) & EVDO but this Constant Crippling of Phones needs to stop !!

Posted by: Cobra

When you get a fuel me bundle, it will make your browser unlimited instead of 100k.

Posted by: TO Cell Dude

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

You are obviously from Ontario or Quebec. In Alberta, people hate Telus way more than anyone in Ontario hates Bell! ( (I have worked both places)

People always hate the imcumbent, like teeneagers hate their parents. The grass is always greener.

This isn't unique to cellular, look at gas stations. If station "A" goes to 84.5 cents, station "B" will too. "B" won't stay at 83.1 to get the fraction of customers who want to save a few cents.

Why not blame the people who start the unfavourable changes. It is a business, not charity.

Also, most US providers have more customers than Canada has people. Of course Cingular/AT&T with its 44 million people is cheaper then Bell with its 3 million people. And guess what, Wal-Mart is cheaper than your corner store!

Posted by: DukeN

Unlimited EVDO? Howcome every Bell rep I've spoken to has verified $25MB over and over. And on top of it, $5MB with the BB plan with RIDICULOUS OVERAGES ($20+ per MB, compared to $7/MB for Rogers).

Posted by: SuperCM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra

When you get a fuel me bundle, it will make your browser unlimited instead of 100k.

When was it set to 100k?

Posted by: DukeN

Innovative products like, the V3c that's only what, a year late to market? Or perhaps you're talking about Bell's innovative picture messaging launch, which was basically an excuse to charge users for picture transfers while crippling their phones? Products and services aside, the "innovation" doesn't stop, even the marketing department has joined the fun with a terrible attempt at plagarism with the beaver commercials (come up with something original you know, like the Telus folks did).

Maybe you should take off your blinders that have Bell plastered all over it - you might even get a sense of reality.

Let me know if you can find a few innovative Bell wireless products or "services" you can list, if you ever wake up out of your Bell-brainwash induced coma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtyjeffer

pick up a book and read sometime...you will see that Bell is first to market many innovative new products and services...it is easier to see without those blinders of yours on.

Posted by: gundagordy

^It hasn't yet. It will when the new plans go in effect.

Posted by: sebastian406

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Unlimited EVDO? Howcome every Bell rep I've spoken to has verified $25MB over and over. And on top of it, $5MB with the BB plan with RIDICULOUS OVERAGES ($20+ per MB, compared to $7/MB for Rogers).

http://www.bell.ca/shop/en_CA_QC/Pr...ternetRatePlans

There you go. FYI, Bell data prices > Rogers data prices.

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Innovative products like, the V3c that's only .....crippling their phones? Products and services aside, the "innovation" doesn't stop, even the marketing department has joined the fun with a terrible attempt at plagarism with the beaver commercials (come up with something original you know, like the Telus folks did).

Yea BELLS Marketing Dept. SUCKS ****S & LICKS Beavers!!

Posted by: I'mHomeless

Bell just raised the network charge on their residential long distance plans from 2.95 a month to 4.50 a month to "keep up with the compitition"...you think cellular is bad, have a look at the residential long distance plans, they're pathetic compared to the competition, but people won't change because they don't want to get two bills...I say screw it, switch...

Posted by: SiR Steel

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Innovative products like, the V3c that's only what, a year late to market?

Yes, innovate as in a 1.3 megapixel camera, 30MB of memory, and MotoSpeak compared to Rogers' 0.3 megapixel, 5.5 MB memory and no MotoSpeak. And I don't remember a CDMA V3 out from Motorola. Perhaps you should blame Motorola instead. However, compared to the rest of the world, phones available in Canada pretty much suck.

Quote:

Or perhaps you're talking about Bell's innovative picture messaging launch, which was basically an excuse to charge users for picture transfers while crippling their phones?

Please. Bell is a business. Telus is a business. Rogers is a business. Of course they're going to charge users for picture transfers.

Now go run along and complain about your bank's policy to charge you for pushing buttons on their ATM machine to get YOUR money out.

Quote:

Products and services aside, the "innovation" doesn't stop, even the marketing department has joined the fun with a terrible attempt at plagarism with the beaver commercials (come up with something original you know, like the Telus folks did).

That's like Disney complaining to Pixar because they're not as original with their animation. The beaver is Canadian. A gecko - not.

Posted by: Dreaderus

the wireless industry about 10 years ago went in a direction few companies went, they started having to buy customers business to keep them, or entice them to join, and now that these customers, are no longer going to be bought, there is an unroar!

Perhaps if the demand for the "free" phone wasn't the major factor in which company you chose, then there would be more options which hopefully changes in the future.

while handset innovation isnt the strongest point of bell, to state they are not doing innovative things is just blinding yourself to everything due to prior issues or general hatred

Dreaderus

Posted by: funkychicken

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreaderus

to state they are not doing innovative things is just blinding yourself to everything

Okay, this is good. I want concrete examples, please. What does Bell offer that is innovative? For which innovative technology or service was Bell a first-mover in the marketplace? And in any case in which they were first-mover, what did they do when another company entered that market competitively? How did they respond? I would really like to know.

Hey, I'll agree that the EP1 plan, with BCAA bonuses is a good deal as far as plans go. But I don't think you can call plans or their pricing as being "innovative", since it doesn't really take a lot of skill to lower your prices. And besides, for all the goodness of EP1, their data rate prices are still absolutely outrageous.

So what makes Bell innovative?

Posted by: rip

This is one step towards reducing churn when number portability starts, Rogers is probably not too far behind on the ECF...

Posted by: dirtyjeffer

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkychicken

Okay, this is good. I want concrete examples, please. What does Bell offer that is innovative? For which innovative technology or service was Bell a first-mover in the marketplace?

Bell was the first to market a wireless product in canada, in the mid 50's, used primarily by people in the news business to report on stories wirelessly...their paging system came shortly after (called Bell-boy)...they were the first carrier in canada to offer location based services, WAP browser, 1x network, unlimited evenings and weekends on LD inclusive plans (like you can with Business Canada), unlimited WAP feature, unlimited SMS feature, 2-way text messaging, 1xEVDO, blackberry products that run on the wireless network instead of the older network (so your BB was also a phone, as when Bell first launched the 6750 several years ago, Rogers was still selling their 950 and 957 models)...there are litterally tons more, that i simply don't have time right now to "look up", hence why i suggested YOU "learn" more about it, before making yourself look like a fool.

as for what Bell did to respond, lets see...other carriers increased their SAF to $6.95, Bell was the LAST one to raise their prices from $4.50, almost a year after every one else changed...other carriers moved their clocks to 9 PM for their nights and weekends, Bell will be the last to do so as well, again, close to a year later than when Telus first started it (followed shortly after by Rogers)...other carriers were offering only pay per use charges for browser and text messaging service, Bell offers unlimited options for both, and even has them bundled with other popular features for optimal savings, NOT offered by the competition...rogers rolled out EDGE, touting high speed data use, Bell is deploying EVDO, which is even faster, so they are competing very well there...and regarding you comment about the RAZR coming a year late, it isn't a year late, Motorola just released that phone in canada, and we were the first to carry it (unless telus launched their's the same day)...that model just came out in the US November 28th with All-Tel, and we had them late January, so that is pretty good that we launched it within a couple of months of the US...and while i can't comment on the phones to be launched, they will be VERY attractive handsets at all price points.

Posted by: Dreaderus

its the weekend im relaxing im not the one doing the complaining either

tons of areas they are innovative, and in other areas, where they can learn from experience, to be eventually in a position in the market that others are trying to catch them.

Dreaderus

Posted by: mcfz

At the end of the day, if you are not happy with your provider, just do what you gotta do and make the switch...

WNP will make the place go WILD... LOL

Posted by: patiostone

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'mHomeless

Bell just raised the network charge on their residential long distance plans from 2.95 a month to 4.50 a month to "keep up with the compitition"...you think cellular is bad, have a look at the residential long distance plans, they're pathetic compared to the competition, but people won't change because they don't want to get two bills...I say screw it, switch...

I know several people who were using YAK for their LD (3.5 cents per min and no network fee) They were frequently called by BELL offering to match the rate, but would not budge on the network fee. These people have now returned to Bell because they were finally offerred the same rate as YAK and NO network fee. If in the future Bell starts charging the NETWORK fee they will be back to YAK

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtyjeffer

as for what Bell did to respond, lets see...other carriers increased their SAF to $6.95, Bell was the LAST one to raise their prices from $4.50, almost a year after every one else changed...other carriers moved their clocks to 9 PM for their nights and weekends, Bell will be the last to do so as well, again, close to a year later than when Telus first started it (followed shortly after by Rogers)...other carriers were offering only pay per use charges for browser and text messaging service, Bell offers unlimited options for both, and even has them bundled with other popular features for optimal savings, NOT offered by the competition...rogers rolled out EDGE, touting high speed data use, Bell is deploying EVDO, which is even faster, so they are competing very well there...and regarding you comment about the RAZR coming a year late, it isn't a year late, Motorola just released that phone in canada, and we were the first to carry it (unless telus launched their's the same day)

Mostly True other than the RZR IMO ! Bell claimed Exclusivity on the VC3 but weeks later none were available ! Seemed to me that both Telus & Bell had the RZR for sale at the same time & Telus had a wider distribution of it !

Telus KING RZR is far superior to Ma Bells CRIPPLED release because it can actually use the EVDO network has Full BT functionality & Yes you can turn EVDO off & Force the phone to 1X whenever you want! !! Don't forget Telus had the first 1.3 MP camera , MP3 player, expanable memory , external speaker, Phone over a Year ago !! Fidos 6670 I think was next in line for this Hardware Claim Long before either Bell or Rogers.
Almost forgot TELUS has offered Unlimited Picture , Video & text messaging Bundles for nearly a Year now! Also EVDO is generally Much Faster

than EDGE but the Coverage Footprints need to be expanded beyond 7 cities (Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Calgary , Edmonton, Vancouver, Victoria) !

Posted by: DukeN

Dirtyjeffer, thanks for citing examples from a few years ago, save for EDGE, which is about the only innovative service that Bell has offered ahead of competition in quite some time. And even that is crippled and restricted on capable hardware (V3c). And not raising a BS service fee and waiting a few months to change the evenings call times don't count as services or products.

Just shows what Bell really can claim to being innovative in the last few years - "Yeah the most innovation we can claim was but you can list lots for Telus and Rogers such as the newest devices, lesser or no crippling of devices, not to mention the SLEW of advantages Rogers has simply by using GSM based architecture.

I won't even mention the multiple levels of Bell bureaucracy - how much hassle it takes just to get something simple done or changed at times, not just with the wireless division.

And Dreaderus, I don't hate Bell because of prior issues but because they don't entice me with offers (what do I care, my work pays for my BB and any other test devices). I just find the mind numbing 'cronyism' and total lack of innovative thinking aggravating to no end. And lets not even mention the part where their phones are crippled and restricted just to Bell can market some of their forced services.

Posted by: GP-SE

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

not to mention the SLEW of advantages Rogers has simply by using GSM based architecture.

What advantages?

Posted by: wireless-wizz

The wireless space in Canada is an Oligopoly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly

The three players are more interested in pleasing Bay Street than pleasing Main Street. Why would an high tech growth industry give so much money away to investors through share buyback programs and large dividends? In an oligopoly which has "rational competition" neither competitor will do anything "innovative" to compete because innovation will cost money. Over the last 5 years relative marketshare for the three main players has stayed about the same. The market is growing slowly and as long as each player is getting their fair share of new customers then they are happy. Noone is going out of their way to GAIN marketshare.

When Rogers bought Fido, Bay Street was happy. When Telus bought Clearnet, Bay Street was happy. Customers though were not happy.

Think about this - Minutes of Usage per customer in the US is between 800 to 1,000 minutes per month. In Canada minutes of usage is half that number. Bell Mobility, according to some reports has the lowest usage rate in Canada. Some analysts say that the Canadian wireless market may be up to 5 years behind the US in wireless adoption. Canadians can't be that much dumber than Americans when it comes to cellphones can they?

Robert Bruce, VP of Marketing at Rogers, says that Rogers makes 10% of their wireless revenue from wireless data services. Bell Mobility might make half and Telus is too embarassed to even report that number. Rogers has done something innovative. Bell Mobility was the first to launch Location Based Services a few years ago but do you know anything about it yet?

What does Bell Mobility do to stand out? How do they differentiate themselves? How are they better? I don't think they themselves know.

I have met some Bell Mobility marketing people and the sad thing is that they have not hired much new blood from outside. The culture is too inbred. Bell Canada has a major policy of not hiring people from outside because of the employee reductions they are trying to do. If people get promoted from inside starting the move from customer service and then moving into marketing without getting a marketing education (I dont mean a 3 day course in marketing) then how effective will these people be in marketing?

As a matter of fact, smart people are leaving Bell Mobility. Rob Bruce (mentioned previously) used to be a VP at Bell Mobility - now he is at Rogers and he must be laughing his *** off.

Maybe the problem is the leadership. Robert Odendaal, President of Bell Mobility is a Fellow Chartered Management Account (U.K.). He used to run British Sky Broadcasting (BSkyB) over a period of eight years and previous to that spent several years at the BBC. How can someone with an "accounting" mindset lead a team to do something innovative?

Rogers is doing SOMETHING right. So is Telus.
Bell Mobility on the other hand appears to be spinning its wheels.

Look at the "Beaver ads" for example. They might be entertaining but an advertisement's primary purpose is to sell something. What do Frank and Gordon sell?

That my friends is the problem.
1. No differentiation
2. No superior value proposition
3. No plan

Bell and Bell Mobility seem to be suffering from the same condition that the Liberal Party was suffering from = spending more time trying to hold up the house of cards than anything else. Maybe they just don't get it. The house of cards will soon collapse. The Bell Mobility just does not know it yet.

If you dont believe me, compare stock price comparison over the last 3 years. Look at http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s...n&z=l&c=BCE&p=s

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Quote:

I have met some Bell Mobility marketing people and the sad thing is that they have not hired much new blood from outside. The culture is too inbred

Begs the question. Is Kareen $.

Sister, Daughter, KiS$ing Kousin or illegitimate Spawn of Ma Bell ?
Marketing (Bait & Lures) Dept. is worthless!
Iam guessing they got bored doing it to each other everyday & decided they would start having intercourse with the General Public, but only after these Love $laves were seduced and LOCKED UP into Contracts!
Bell is not to be Trusted!!*

*With apologies & Best Wishes to all the Good, Knowledgeable, Honest Bell Workers , Reps.

Posted by: DukeN

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP-SE

What advantages?

Hmm, where to begin..

First, I can take my GSM phone anywhere in the world if travelling, pay a small amount of $, get it unlocked and use it there.

Second, the sim card architecture makes it super easy to maintain contacts. Easy to swap phones, no need to buy high end handhelds or overpriced data kits. Not to mention phone cables and data kits seem to be in much higher availability for GSM than CDMA phones.

Third, and this is my biggest issue with non-GSM devices. I have my non EDGE blackberry, and I can carry an EDGE PCMCIA card. When I need to use it, I just pop the SIM card from my BB into the PCMCIA card to use it. No need to pay for every device every month!

I won't even say much about the biggest one - the one even the Bell cronies will acknowledge, the newest and the coolest phones for worldwide launch usually come out ready for GSM, or exclusively for it - the RAZR being a prime example.

Funny how Bell is now testing that dual SIM/CDMA phone, and its the only product sold out on its site.

Posted by: frankie5string

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Hmm, where to begin..

First, I can take my GSM phone anywhere in the world if travelling, pay a small amount of $, get it unlocked and use it there.

I call Roadpost, the phone arrives the next morning, all set up ready to go and it's cheap! done...

Quote:

Third, and this is my biggest issue with non-GSM devices. I have my non EDGE blackberry, and I can carry an EDGE PCMCIA card. When I need to use it, I just pop the SIM card from my BB into the PCMCIA card to use it. No need to pay for every device every month!

How often do you do this? Daily, weekly? That poor sim card must be begging to be put out of its misery... Besides, I just forego the whole thing right now and use WIFI around town...

Quote:

I won't even say much about the biggest one - the one even the Bell cronies will acknowledge, the newest and the coolest phones for worldwide launch usually come out ready for GSM, or exclusively for it - the RAZR being a prime example.

Right and it was garbage when it came out - the GSM model has gone through more than one motherboard and chipset revision and they're still having stability problems with it! But the V3C both with and without EVDO is a stellar performer.

Quote:

Funny how Bell is now testing that dual SIM/CDMA phone, and its the only product sold out on its site.

That's not even what that phone is for - it's for people who travel to Europe, and it only supports european frequencies on the GSM side and it's simply a way for Bell to make more money off of travellers without pushing customers off to Roadpost.

Posted by: shaner

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Second, the sim card architecture makes it super easy to maintain contacts. Easy to swap phones, no need to buy high end handhelds or overpriced data kits. Not to mention phone cables and data kits seem to be in much higher availability for GSM than CDMA phones.

SIM card swapping doesn't help if your phone has been stolen, or run over by a car.

Bell has a better solution.

https://www.contactmanager.bell.ca/login.do

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Contact Manager only works with the VoX 8930 only , does it not?

Posted by: shaner

Currently. More phones to follow.

Posted by: SuperCM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaner

Bell has a better solution.

https://www.contactmanager.bell.ca/login.do

Like, whoa. And they said Bell wasn't innovative.

Posted by: mlerner

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCM

Like, whoa. And they said Bell wasn't innovative.

They're not. http://www.funambol.com/

Posted by: kdholdom

Fido hasn't even switched their eve clock to 8pm yet....so bell IS NOT the last to change to 9.

Posted by: newdad

I don't know a single person that uses Fido, not even one business contact or personal contact. To be honest I don't even think of them as a provider anymore.

Posted by: DukeN

Quote:

Originally Posted by newdad

I don't know a single person that uses Fido, not even one business contact or personal contact. To be honest I don't even think of them as a provider anymore.

Yes, that's some astute logic, as always by the Bell fanboys. They're more competitive than us, support a wider choice of devices, so umm, "I don't even think of them as a provider". If I ignore them, they must not exist, right?

Posted by: DukeN

Yes, let's pay Roadpost while I could use the existing phone that I have with my GSM provider instead.

As for the SIM card swapping, no its not swapped daily but it is extremely handy when needed. Try finding a wifi spot in woodstock or similar places when needing internet access ASAP.

Yes, and of course you didn't have that model until a year after release, it was garbage. Sad thing is, Bell's version of it is terrible still, for Telus has the fully functional version instead.

The Bell homers here remind me of Future Shop sales guys pushing those ripoff warranties - they push them so hard, they almost have convinced themselves that its a great value! Just like the Bell cronies are brainwashed that their culture of mediocrity is cutting edge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankie5string

I call Roadpost, the phone arrives the next morning, all set up ready to go and it's cheap! done...

How often do you do this? Daily, weekly? That poor sim card must be begging to be put out of its misery... Besides, I just forego the whole thing right now and use WIFI around town...

Right and it was garbage when it came out - the GSM model has gone through more than one motherboard and chipset revision and they're still having stability problems with it! But the V3C both with and without EVDO is a stellar performer.

That's not even what that phone is for - it's for people who travel to Europe, and it only supports european frequencies on the GSM side and it's simply a way for Bell to make more money off of travellers without pushing customers off to Roadpost.

Posted by: JohnnyToronto

What happens if we already have pre-existing plans with evenings starting from 6pm?

Posted by: rip

You should be okay, they're not monkeying around yet with grandfathered plans...YET

btw the network is down for me...more major changes?

Posted by: JohnnyToronto

Quote:

Originally Posted by rip

You should be okay, they're not monkeying around yet with grandfathered plans...YET

btw the network is down for me...more major changes?

Phew that should save me for a bit.
I've had the same plan for 5 years now.
Evenings starting at 6, and weekends free. 350 minutes in the day advanced messaging service, 200 txt messages, call display,unlimited web browser and that all comes up to around 50 a month.

Posted by: newdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Wooah, down boy....

I think you need to relax, In my area there is absolutely nowhere for you to go buy a Fido phone, I would imagine that even if you could it wouldn't work anyways. I was expressing an opinion bud, no need to get all defensive about it...

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by newdad

I don't know a single person that uses Fido, not even one business contact or personal contact. To be honest I don't even think of them as a provider anymore.

FIDO has been delivering "UNLIMITED DATA" for years with some of the Best international roaming rates Period !
Bell finally has a GOOD Data product & currently the only Advertised Unlimited data plan on the Market but their data is not useful in many countrys outside N.A.!

Quote:

Originally Posted by newdad

In my area there is absolutely nowhere for you to go buy a Fido phone, I would imagine that even if you could it wouldn't work anyways. I was expressing an opinion bud, no need to get all defensive about it...

Stop IMAGINEing & realize Fido has a Much larger Coverage area with the correct Dual band hardware & Plan!!

Posted by: dirtyjeffer

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Yes, let's pay Roadpost while I could use the existing phone that I have with my GSM provider instead.

or, you can use a motorola A840 and use your existing CDMA service here, and roam overseas with flat rate calling, not some complicated mix of rates by which "zone" you are in.

Quote:

Yes, and of course you didn't have that model until a year after release, it was garbage. Sad thing is, Bell's version of it is terrible still, for Telus has the fully functional version instead.

your bias comes through quite clear in that statement...the RAZR is an excellent phone, and while Bell's version currently doesn't support EVDO and full BT like Telus' model, it doesn't appear to suffer from the buggy problems that theirs does too (since the phones are identical with the exception of those enabled features, i can only assume it must be because of those features)...i have yet to hear of ANY issues from any customers (or even in here for that matter) about ANY RAZR problems...i think most people would rather a phone have a couple less features, and work properly than a fully loaded piece of crap.

Posted by: DukeN

Ever seen roaming charges charged by Bell? And that motorola phone is ridiculously overpriced by Bell, and just shows you the appeal of GSM for its the only one sold out on Bell's site.

GSM handsets are simply much more usable overseas, for you can just use your existing handheld and pop in a SIM from the local provider there if need be. No need to pay for Roadpost, or Bell's ludicrous roaming fees.

And yes DJ, your bias is totally invisible, for if another carrier has a similar product with full functionality, it is a buggy piece of crap. If Bell doesn't have it, it must be ****.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtyjeffer

or, you can use a motorola A840 and use your existing CDMA service here, and roam overseas with flat rate calling, not some complicated mix of rates by which "zone" you are in.

your bias comes through quite clear in that statement...the RAZR is an excellent phone, and while Bell's version currently doesn't support EVDO and full BT like Telus' model, it doesn't appear to suffer from the buggy problems that theirs does too (since the phones are identical with the exception of those enabled features, i can only assume it must be because of those features)...i have yet to hear of ANY issues from any customers (or even in here for that matter) about ANY RAZR problems...i think most people would rather a phone have a couple less features, and work properly than a fully loaded piece of crap.

Posted by: SuperCM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Ever seen roaming charges charged by Bell? And that motorola phone is ridiculously overpriced by Bell, and just shows you the appeal of GSM for its the only one sold out on Bell's site.

Could be they didn't order enough stock. Or maybe it means that people are coming back to Bell from as they now have an all-in-one solution for travelling abroad and no longer need to rent for trips.

Posted by: Vt_Mc

The death of CDMA phones are inevitable.. the only place i see for a big CDMA market is prorably Japan, because there service providers actually give out cool phones worth using CDMA, i don't think the same can be said about Bell.

Posted by: Deckster

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Ever seen roaming charges charged by Bell?

$2.49/min in GSM (including LD) and $0.99 if you're roaming international on CDMA

Fido, who people claim has fantastic roaming rates, Zone - zone calling that ranges from $2-$9 per minute. Incoming calling that ranges from $1-$3.50 per minute. Calling home will cost between $2-$9 per minute.

I think that Bell's rates are okay.

Posted by: Ottawa411

Crappy customer service sure isn't going to help Bell. I sent an email to them complaining that all their ads were hyping EV-DO that virtually didn't exist in Ontario and that some Bellworld stores were telling people we did have EV-DO here in Ottawa. I complained that despite repeated inquiries nobody could tell me if/when Ottawa would get EV-DO. They replied as follows:

In response to your query, unfortunately I am unable to say when or if
we will be getting EV-DO coverage in your area. I invite you to access
the following URL address for more information on our coverage:

www.bell.ca/coverage

Thank you for your patience, your understanding and for choosing Bell as
your wireless provider. I hope to have adequately addressed your
concerns regarding this matter.

I wish you a pleasant day.

Rosa (BM121946)
Bell Mobility Online Customer Service

When I complained that they didn't address my complaint, they wrote back the following:

Customer feedback is very important to us and I appreciate the
opportunity to address your concerns. I am grateful that you chose to
devote a few moments to bring this matter to our attention.

I apologize for any inconvenience this situation may have caused.
Quality service is a priority for Bell Mobility and I trust that this
was an isolated incident. Although you will not be contacted by a
representative, rest assured I have forwarded your comments to the
appropriate department.

Thank you for your patience, your understanding and for choosing Bell as
your wireless provider. I hope to have adequately addressed your
concerns regarding this matter.

I wish you a pleasant day.

Faraz 601194
Bell Mobility Online Customer Service

Does anyone else doubt whether they actually read my complaints? Does it sound like a company that is concerned about customer service? Wouldn't you think a company this size could afford to pay someone to write a few more canned responses than what we have seen so far?

Posted by: SuperCM

They didn't try to up-sell something in the replies?

Posted by: DukeN

Haha Ottawa, atleast you got a response. I've dealt with Bell reps who wouldn't even answer emails for weeks, and this would be for direct sales! If they're so brutal for selling services, just imagine their service levels.

Posted by: Deckster

So, Ottawa411, "Rosa (BM121946)" did not have the answer as to when or even if Ottawa will get EVDO service. What did you want her to say? Why would "Rosa (BM121946)" have knowledge of future expansion projects (that may or may not be strategically kept a secret).

As to the Bell World stores that told you that EV-DO was deployed there, don't complain to customer service, call the store and tell the manager that their employee's are giving out false information. Those reps should be properly trained and the manager or assistant manager will make sure that they get trained.

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCM

They didn't try to up-sell something in the replies?

Nope, not a thing. I just wrote back saying what a stupid response it was. How could an almost total lack of EV-DO coverage that is Bell's showpiece in their ad's be an "isolated experience"? Boy, can they take a little irritation and really piss a person off? As far as I am concerned, Bell's ad's are deceptive and many of their employees out and out lie just to hook suckers up with phones and services that don't work as advertised. At the rate Bell is going, people's contracts will be up before they can actually get the service they bought the phone for. For my day to day usage, my sph-a920 is no better than my Kyocera slider except for the mp3's. It has phenomenal potential, but is really hampered without the highspeed connnection.

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckster

So, Ottawa411, "Rosa (BM121946)" did not have the answer as to when or even if Ottawa will get EVDO service. What did you want her to say? Why would "Rosa (BM121946)" have knowledge of future expansion projects (that may or may not be strategically kept a secret).

As to the Bell World stores that told you that EV-DO was deployed there, don't complain to customer service, call the store and tell the manager that their employee's are giving out false information. Those reps should be properly trained and the manager or assistant manager will make sure that they get trained.

I don't give a **** about Rosa. I care that Bell is selling EV-DO like the second coming and they give customers no idea that it is available to almost nobody they are selling it to. Why the hell would Bell be selling EV-DO in all their advertising, especially to business users if places like Ottawa are part of a secret future expansion plan? I bet all the suits buying Kyocera cards with $100 plans wil be happy to find out how accomodationg Bell is when to comes to actually providing the service they thought they were buying. Bell has always been incredibly deceptive and is only getting worse.

Posted by: Deckster

It's too bad that almost nobody lives or uses phones in Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver. I have not seen any advertising that said Ottawa had EV-DO, I have yet to see a coverage map indicating Ottawa has EV-DO.

You don't give a **** about Rosa, but if she had lied and told you that in x days you would have EV-DO in your area, you would have been happy for x days, and pissed off in x+1 days. If you were lied to by Bell World employees, speak to their manager.

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckster

It's too bad that almost nobody lives or uses phones in Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver. I have not seen any advertising that said Ottawa had EV-DO, I have yet to see a coverage map indicating Ottawa has EV-DO.

You don't give a **** about Rosa, but if she had lied and told you that in x days you would have EV-DO in your area, you would have been happy for x days, and pissed off in x+1 days. If you were lied to by Bell World employees, speak to their manager.

Are you ****ing stupid or just a Bell fanboy? Maybe you don't live here, but every store that sells Bell cellphones has references to their fabulous high speed network. Almost every tv station has the same ads and then some. The business ads are even worse. Canada is not made up of Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver. Many people live there, but many don't and the business users they sell to do business in other areas as well. Bell is very discrete about how limited this Network is and I can assure you that I am not the first person to get pissed off about it. A freaking network coverage map available on the internet, or in a back office somewhere does little to counter all the hype that tells people a different story. Bell might have their *** covered legally and with fanboys like you, but it pisses people off and with Bell's situation, that isn't what they should be doing.

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawa411

Bell's ad's are deceptive and many of their employees out and out lie just to hook suckers up with phones and services that don't work as advertised. At the rate Bell is going, people's contracts will be up before they can actually get the service they bought the phone for. .

Are you reading this Kareen $. ? More & More it becomes apparent that Others think your Marketing (Bait & Lures) Dept. is nothing but a Big CON!

Posted by: DukeN

LOL clearly no one likes Bell except for a few employees.

Posted by: blueadept

... replies the poster with the provider "Anyone but Bell Anyone but Bell Anyone but Bell" to the poster who obsesses over a "King" Razr.

Bias? Nah.

I've never had a bad experience with bell, other than poor customer service at times, but that can be expected from any company.

Posted by: TelecomZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueadept

... replies the poster with the provider "Anyone but Bell Anyone but Bell Anyone but Bell" to the poster who obsesses over a "King" Razr.

Bias? Nah.

I've never had a bad experience with bell, other than poor customer service at times, but that can be expected from any company.

I have them all !!!
Bell is the Worst !
I work for none of the Companies !
Telus RZR is the Best be it GSM or CDMA!!

Posted by: Gquie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawa411

While I agree that the EV-DO Coverage should be more extensively available I also understand that its a work in progress. Advertising in markets which do not have EV-DO is, while frustrating, not a bad idea. Eventually secondary urban centers will have EV-DO Coverage as well and creating awareness of it is better than just dumping it on the customer when it becomes available. It creates hype and you cant blame a company for wanting to create hype.

While youre complaining about the EV-DO coverage we have millions of other people who complain about not having digital cellular service altogether! How about all the major Telco's spend more money on covering the rest of the Canadian population with something as basic as digital coverage before upgrading EV-DO coverage? Unfortunatly its just not a priority. How many people outside of the few major cities have any use for the EVDO network?

Case in point, High Speed DSL has always been advertised by Bell but there are still massive pockets of the Canadian society which cannot use it due to their location. This is also true for Telus DSL out west but thats no excuse to stop advertising it. How ignorant would the rest of the Canadian population be outside of our major urban centers if companies didnt advertise the latest and greatest technologies available?

I will also say and agree that only having one phone that can currently access the EVDO network is stupid. Why would bell launch a phone that is fully EVDO capable yet cannot utilize the networks? RAZR? E815? What makes the A920 so special that its the only one graced with EVDO?

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gquie

I partially agree with you, but having spent much of my life in these areas, my experience has been that they make it explicitly clear that it is not available to you. Generally they won't even sell it to you if you can't use it. EV-DO is unfortunately one of the exceptions in that it does technically still work, just on the 1x network. This is a joke. Most places in Ottawa, I have trouble just checking movie listings before I get to the theatre. I do agree with you that they should be properly serving wider areas before they dump new technologies on the major centers. Building hype is good if you can back it up in a reasonable timeframe with the goods you promise. After I got the phone, Bell seemed to have a semi-official position that the Ev-DO would be working here and most other large cities in time for the Olympics. Now their answers range from: "we already have EV-DO" to "probably by the end of 2007" to "I am unable to say when or if we will be getting EV-DO coverage in your area". My impression is that telcos are being heavily criticized for spending vast amounts of money on things like this while their business goes in the toilet. Just look at what is happening to the U.S. automakers and what they have done by failing to give their customers what they want and letting their costs spiral out of control.

Posted by: frankie5string

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeN

Yes, let's pay Roadpost while I could use the existing phone that I have with my GSM provider instead.

I did a comparison, and if I were to take a Rogers phone with me to Greece and factor in the local and roaming charges, it would have cost me close to 600$ to use that phone out there... With Roadpost - it was about 120$ because I went over my allotted minutes... the only silly things that happened was that after I got back Roadpost kept sending me bills for zero dollars for about 6 months after I returned the phone. That and the voicemail hadn't been reset right away so the outgoing message was from some american soldier! freaky.

I even discussed it briefly with some people in Greece and they mentioned I was smart to get a british phone number (which Roadpost does for you) because none of them would have called me on my north american phone number and incurred the charges.

Posted by: dirtyjeffer

the Blackberry 7250 is now listed as "Available soon on our EVDO network", so i think a software upgrade is coming to enable EVDO on it.

Posted by: rip

Quote:

Originally Posted by TelecomZombie

Are you reading this Kareen $. ? More & More it becomes apparent that Others think your Marketing (Bait & Lures) Dept. is nothing but a Big CON!

Kareen doesn't work there anymore

You see thsoe leaves, remember where they started and where they went, well the trail is on again

Posted by: GP-SE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gquie

What makes the A920 so special that its the only one graced with EVDO?

Perhaps Samsung is sleeping with Bell and wanted to sell this phone badly so they told Bell that it (a-920) has to be Bell's "EVDO PHONE"

Posted by: Deckster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gquie

What makes the A920 so special that its the only one graced with EVDO?

Perhaps it is because a software upgrade to enable EVDO on Motorola phones can be done easily at the store. We all have the necessary hardware and ability since we had several upgrades to the V120, and V60. Samsungs would have to be sent in for a software upgrade.

Posted by: Deckster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawa411

Apparently it is you who is ****ing stupid. The problem is not with Bell advertising EVDO, but the sales rep who you say lied to you to sucker you into the sale. I have suggested you call the store to fix the problem with wrong information being given. I really don't know why it is so complicated for you to understand. Yes it would be nice if EVDO was network wide but it isn't, and nobody will promise you a date for availability in your area because they can't (whether they know an ETA or not)

Posted by: rip

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtyjeffer

the Blackberry 7250 is now listed as "Available soon on our EVDO network", so i think a software upgrade is coming to enable EVDO on it.

good news, but i'm already so fustrated over the EP1 inconsistency issues...i'm NOT giving anymore of my $$$ to Bell.

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckster

Kind of interesting since I went into 3 bellworld stores TODAY and not 1 of them has a coverage map listing EVDO areas in Ontario. They clearly are using official Bell advertising materials to sell Kyocera and Samsung products with advertised 400 to 700 kbps download speeds to Ottawa residents and no disclaimers about coverage areas. Bell is clearly lying to its consumers and getting away with it on a technicality which is probably why they are being sued over their current advertising campaign. Without being aware of the problem prior to buying the phone, there is no way you will find out you don't have the high-speed they are selling you until it is too late. Only today did the customer service actually admit to me that streaming TV is useless anywhere outside of Toronto, but they are selling it to everyone they can get to sign up for it. Bell is clearly selling a service across the province that it knows only works in one city and I am stupid?

Posted by: Deckster

EVDO is also not available in Sudbury, we have the same adds and I guarantee not one single customer who comes in asking about EVDO, or purchasing the a920, thinks that EVDO is available in Sudbury.

If they are telling you it is available, TALK TO THEIR MANAGER

As for disclaimers on the advertising for EVDO, I guess you missed the first line in the fine print of the flyer where is says "services available where technology and coverage exists. or footnote 12 that states "Applies to the EV-DO data network with compatible device in select major Canadian cities.", goes on further with "EV-DO services are available where tecnology permits"

Posted by: dirtyjeffer

Quote:

Originally Posted by rip

good news, but i'm already so fustrated over the EP1 inconsistency issues...i'm NOT giving anymore of my $$$ to Bell.

EP1 was a great deal...got my wife a RAZR on it before it ended (she was on prepaid with an N370).

Posted by: dirtyjeffer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawa411

Only today did the customer service actually admit to me that streaming TV is useless anywhere outside of Toronto, but they are selling it to everyone they can get to sign up for it. Bell is clearly selling a service across the province that it knows only works in one city and I am stupid?

the streaming TV service works fine in 1x areas...i have used it myself many times.

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Thank you again for using Bell Mobility's Internet Customer Service.

My name is Ruth (BM6005065) and I have reviewed the details of your
latest e-mail with care. I am happy to assist you further.

With repsonse to your query, in order to provide our customers with
extensive national coverage, Bell Mobility has and will continue to
partner with carriers across Canada to leverage their EVDO networks and
vice versa.
Currently, our EVDO network is only available in Toronto and Montreal.

For more details on the coverage for EVDO and launch dates for other
areas, please refer to the below URL address:

www.bell.ca/coverage

With regards to your units' functions not being available, the only
feature you will not be able to utilize at this current time is the
streaming TV option. You may still take advantage of our Music
Store(songs and MP3 player) and your Video and Picture Messaging
features on the phone.

Thank you for your patience, your understanding and for choosing Bell as
your wireless provider. I hope to have adequately addressed your
concerns regarding this matter.

I wish you a pleasant day.

Ruth (BM6005065)
Bell Mobility Online Customer Service

This is a direct quote from Bell Customer service. I have also talked to many people regarding this issue and found very rare exceptions, but generally anything you stream in a 1x area buffers more than it is playing and most users find the experience frustrating and unusable. But I guess Bell itself and the large number of people complaining about this issue just don't know what they are talking about, right? I guess Bell is just installing EV-DO for fun because 1x works just fine for things like streaming video, right?

As far as disclaimers go. The few disclaimers that actually exist don't tell you that "select major Canadian cities" means 1 city in Ontario, and not even the whole city. They also mean nothing when the stores don't have the actual info about where these coverage areas are via coverage maps. Even when a customer is informed about the lack of EV-DO in their area, the stores consistently give info that it will be "soon" or "a couple of weeks" and so on, even though some reports I have now found suggest it might not happen until the end of 2007, if they don't slow down its release further due to financial issues. At the very least, the stores don't make it clear, the ads don't make it clear, and their employees don't make it clear that much of the selling point of the phone may never work (outside of Toronto) during the life of your phone.

Posted by: funkychicken

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawa411

This is a direct quote from Bell Customer service.

[snip]

the phone may never work (outside of Toronto) during the life of your phone.

Ummm LOLWHAT? As much as I like to bash Bell, that service rep is on crack. Even the coverage maps on Bell's website show clearly that EVDO coverage exists outside of Toronto and Montreal-- ALL of Vancouver has coverage. I have had EVDO demo'ed to me in person on an a920. So something ain't right here.

EDIT: okay according to the coverage maps, yes, Toronto is the only place in Ontario that seems to have EVDO coverage. But Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton all have coverage as well so it's not correct to say that only Toronto and Montreal have coverage. Ottawa doesn't according to the maps.

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkychicken

I just assumed she meant that Toronto and Montreal were Bell's own network and that they just had an agreement to use the others, but I don't know for sure. Ottawa does technically have 1 tiny area you can access EV-DO coverage over a few square blocks on occassion and 1 tiny area you get a signal you can't connect to, but realistically we don't have any EV-DO. I do know that Bell's maps are out of date, even on the website, but even when they are up to date, they are very misleading about actual coverage areas. Typical for every cell company I think. In my experience, anyone who say streaming video works on a 1x connection probably hasn't used it on EV-DO. EV-DO is fabulous if you have it.

Posted by: Deckster

Your absolutely right, she was referring to Bell's network. As for the few blocks where you can use it in Ottawa, is it consistantly on, or coming in and out. It could be that they are expanding into the area already, and have only a couple towers being tested right now. I have yet to try streaming video with an A920 on 1X, but I can't see it being very good. I have done a music download from the Music Store and it took me a few minutes to download the song. I also sent a ringtone to the phone which was 279KB and it only took about 30 s which isn't too bad for 1X

I also can't see Bell waiting until the end of 2007 to have network wide EV-DO. From what I've heard they will be launching Rev A near the end of the year. I would think that you would want the entire network up and running before launching Rev A, but then again I'm not a network engineer and I don't know their plans

Posted by: back_for_more

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP-SE

Perhaps Samsung is sleeping with Bell and wanted to sell this phone badly so they told Bell that it (a-920) has to be Bell's "EVDO PHONE"

Kinda like a moto-rogers romp??

Posted by: Ottawa411

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckster

Your absolutely right, she was referring to Bell's network. As for the few blocks where you can use it in Ottawa, is it consistantly on, or coming in and out. It could be that they are expanding into the area already, and have only a couple towers being tested right now. I have yet to try streaming video with an A920 on 1X, but I can't see it being very good. I have done a music download from the Music Store and it took me a few minutes to download the song. I also sent a ringtone to the phone which was 279KB and it only took about 30 s which isn't too bad for 1X

I also can't see Bell waiting until the end of 2007 to have network wide EV-DO. From what I've heard they will be launching Rev A near the end of the year. I would think that you would want the entire network up and running before launching Rev A, but then again I'm not a network engineer and I don't know their plans

The area I used it is in Kanata, right near the transitway station to futureshop area around the Centrum. It is very touchy about losing the signal, but it has been there for quite some time now. Maybe 6 weeks ago when I first used it (it is out of my way). The area between Carlingwood shopping centre over to Lincolnfield transitway station has had the EVDO icon come up for quite a while now. It struggles to connect, but never can. I haven't talked to anyone that has actually connected on EVDO there.