vB Easy Archive - Stick Shift Vehicle Owners

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Stick Shift Vehicle Owners
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Posted by: Roasted

Just curious, I've learned stick shift on a little beater pickup truck. Now that I've got a vehicle a tad bit faster (01 Elantra) I can have a little more fun when driving it.

Something I've noticed though that I figured I'd ask about. When I shift, particularly from first to second, sometimes the car gives a little kick. I noticed this in the truck too, and in the truck I always assumed that it was a POS (cause, well it kind of is). Anyway, I'm a little unsure of something. When I run the car hard, and shift at 5 grand, if I shift real fast, just slam it in second, pop the clutch and floor it again, it's actually very smooth... but if I shift slower as if I'm taking my time, yet still run the car to 5 grand, and take my time easing the clutch in, it seems to give a little kick. I expected the OPPOSITE to happen, that the car kick when I shift very fast, as opposed to very slow when I'm taking my time. Is this what you experience when driving your vehicle, or is it perhaps my driving style?

Also,
When I'm just casually driving, particularly from going from 1-2, I ease the clutch in a bit more as if I would to 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5. Anybody else find this the case with their vehicle?

Posted by: Roasted

Are we all automatic drivers?

Posted by: crocket

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roasted

Are we all automatic drivers?

I am sure there are a lot of people here that drive stick, but you would most likely get a better response in the Car Forum.

Posted by: paul34

plus waiting for more than an hour might help too

Posted by: TheRupp

Sounds like you might want to let off the clutch pedal a little slower on the lighter driving

Posted by: import_nation

maybe u press the acell further down when ur in 2nd then when ur in 1st. it happens.. or maybe there is a time where your clutch and accel is down at the same time. analyze ur shifting lol

or maybe ur talking about the kick that is suppose to be there because u let go of the accel to shift.. the acel again.. so obviously there is a little bit if an acceleratoin there lol

Posted by: microchip13

Yep. What TheRupp said.

Just let off on the clutch a bit slower, kinda like when you are going from neutral to first.

Posted by: Gquie

Its also important to rev match...but you'll learn that as you go. Your first few weeks are going to be bumpy. But once you get a bit more accustomed to the feel of your car you'll learn how to manipulate it so that its as smooth as possible. As with all things, practice makes perfect.

Posted by: huck-guai

yeah not shifting smoothly....you really don't need to go to 5000 rpm before you shift into second.....

Posted by: boston_errol

release the clutch more slowly and gently, it wont jerk

Posted by: tuolumne

5000rpm for a 1-2 upshift??

Posted by: Roasted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gquie

Its also important to rev match...but you'll learn that as you go. Your first few weeks are going to be bumpy. But once you get a bit more accustomed to the feel of your car you'll learn how to manipulate it so that its as smooth as possible. As with all things, practice makes perfect.

What I found makes it smooth as hell is not letting off of the gas that much. I used to really bring my right foot off of the gas completely, not even touching the pedal, while my left foot was moving 4x more with how far down I pressed the clutch + how far I brought my left foot up.

But I realized that if I don't move my right foot that much, I can shift really smooth. I let off of the gas maybe 1/4 of an inch or so when I shift... not enough to make the RPMs shoot up when I push in the clutch, but enough to eliminate any bucking from constantly letting off and mashing in the gas. It's particularly smooth as hell from 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5. 1-2 is a little rocky, but I think that's because of me starting off. Some of my friends say the same thing, that their shifting patterns are different from 1-2 and 2-3/3-4/4-5.

Posted by: import_nation

i like the kick.. keeps me awake.. lol

Posted by: Gquie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roasted

Its probably your gear ratios. They are higher in the first few gears and therefore require more rev matching to stop getting the bumps from 1-2. 1-2 is the hardest to shift smoothly for. Even now after 4 years of driving sometimes I still do get bumpy starts.

The other thing to keep in mind is that you must not feather the clutch. A lot of novices do this because it makes the transition seem very smooth but what they dont realize is that youre wearing out the clutch faster than you should be. And you do not want to wear your or burn your clutch cuz you'll be stuck with a nice 2-4 thousand dollar bill to replace it 10000 kms later. careful!

Posted by: NineToez

Different cars shift differently I've noticed. I've driven 'Vettes, Porsches, and even one Ferrari and they're very smooth with no or very little jerking. Trucks seems to have the most "jerking" since they're built with a lot of torque from the engine for the purpose of towing and/or carrying a payload and it's really noticed when it's just you alone in it.

Posted by: Roasted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gquie

What in the world makes you think a clutch replacement costs 2-4 grand? A new stock clutch for my car costs 100 bucks, and a relative of mine is a mechanic. Everyone on this car forum I post on say labor for installing a clutch (just install, no parts) is about 300-400........ 2-4k?????

Anyway, what do you consider feathering the clutch? All I'm talking about what I do is when I push the clutch in, I shift to 2nd, and I slowly let the clutch out. Once I feel the clutch is fully engaged, literally a milisecond later I'm on the gas accelerating. The only thing I do differently is, from 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5, I generally just let the clutch out completely and I'm on the gas and it's smooth. From 1-2, I just ease the clutch in a little more. It's not a matter of me "feathering" it as you would have to do in traffic to keep inching up, it's just me releasing it a bit slower. Is this what you consider feathering?

Posted by: paul34

feathering = riding the clutch, if I'm not mistaken. I'm still learning MT myself, and I do ride the clutch... I recently found out that is bad, so I will have to completely get off the clutch when I'm not using it.

And I've seen clutch replacements at about $1,000 if you get it done at a shop. If you know someone, then you're in luck because its a rather labor intensive process (you need to usually get that sort of thing done at a shop otherwise it'll be very difficult since oftentimes you have to take out the transmission).

Usually if you replace your clutch you'd want to either resurface or replace the flywheel as well. That's probably another $200-300 for the part.

But if you know someone or can do it yourself, then you're in luck. All clutches have to be replaced eventually... if you are ok with replacing yours early then go for it, its just it'd be inconvenient so might as well make your existing clutch last as long as possible.

Posted by: Roasted

If feathering = riding the clutch, how can just letting the clutch out and shifting fast be "feathering" while letting the clutch out very slowly wouldn't be? Unless it's the fact that easing the clutch into gear is just simply easier on it as opposed to shifting + gas real quick afterwards... ?

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Along with my above question, I have another question for you folks to think about. Do you think that someday the manual transmission will be obselete and potentially not created anymore? This includes any car, anything from the Corvette to the Cobalt and Civic. Or do you think there will be enough public demand for the car companies to offer the manual version of that car along with whatever newfangled automatic transmission they come up with?

Posted by: DrunkenMasterA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roasted

If feathering = riding the clutch, how can just letting the clutch out and shifting fast be "feathering" while letting the clutch out very slowly wouldn't be? Unless it's the fact that easing the clutch into gear is just simply easier on it as opposed to shifting + gas real quick afterwards... ?

i think wat he meant was constant pressure on the clutch. I used to do that when i started learning how to drive a stick. You always leave your foot on the clutch , never lifting it up and changing gears and everything. I burnt mine really fast so i had to change it.

Roasted, I think i know wat you're talking about, i used to have a 92 eagle talon, i think thats the case with Mits engine.
Whenever, i shift from 1 to 2, there's a jerk if i let go of the gas so i got to step on the gas.

Posted by: WoNGsTeR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roasted

dont know if manual will be available forever, but certainly for a very long time.. Especially wannabe racers who love to drive standard, and try to race. To me it would just feel wrong to get rid of manual from a corvette or viper...

Posted by: WoNGsTeR

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrunkenMasterA

you could be right.. my 98 kinda does that from 1 to 2 when i first got it, but from practice i am able to switch gears from 1 to 2 with very lil jerk, by just shifting a lil slower if i am just driving normally. but if i am taking off fast, and switch from 1 to 2 fast.. there is no problems though.

Posted by: slickNsxy

might want to check and replace clutch. when you press the clutch down is it hard or light?

my car gets hard when the clutch starts to go bad.

just a thought

Posted by: WoNGsTeR

well i already know my clutch is going lol.. hopefully it can last for one more year.. but its been like that when i got the car 5 years ago...

Posted by: paul34

well, manual in its current form won't be so popularly available in the future

It'll be all about the newer types of transmissions which are way smarter than anything us humans can think of, as far as shifting (even much smarter than current autos). We already have these in the form of DSG and CVT (CVT? The ones on the hybrids?) transmissions. At least with the CVT, it shifts smarter than we could ever do...

I'm pretty sure that DSG transmissions are manually shiftable though, but there's no clutch or anything... and shifts are instantaneous (probably paddle shifters).

I'm no expert though... so don't quote me on it

Posted by: Roasted

I'd miss the clutch, but I been reading about the DSG and it sounds pretty fricken cool. Only thing is, I think it'll take quite a while for the DSG system to trickle down to cars the average joe likes/drives. Cobalt, Civic, Accord, TSX, Elantra, Spectra, etc. I read that right now the DSG is just available on some higher end VW's (including Audi) and I read they have quite a few problems, yet they're problems that will be cureable (nothing design threatening).

But for the time being, I'm gonna enjoy the young 5 spd vehicle I have.

I would think that the regular clutch 5/6 spd transmissions would be cheaper to produce than the DSG though, which would create a spot for the 5/6 spd manuals on the options list for quite a long time yet.

Posted by: Woogie650

this can be explained a number of ways.

1-2 are usually your accel gears and 3-4-5 are your cruising gears. think of it on a bike. most bikes have like 15-18 speeds. If you're at a stop and the bike is in fifth gear and you slam on the pedal, it's not gunna jerk you forward. the gear is just way too big to have that kind of affect. in first gear however, you'll feel it like a slingshot. You'll be able to feel the most torque in your car in your first and second gears.

Take this into consideration as well. This is a matter of physics - one of newton's laws/principles illustrated with vectors and such. When you're at a dead stop, it takes more power to get the car moving than it does while already in motion. when your car is in motion, it takes very little power to keep it in motion; you only gotta step on the gas a little bit right? There's a greater load on the engine in your first and second gears because A. more mass to get into motion and B. they're your smaller gears. does that make sense?

Like i mentioned earlier, best way to understand this is to hop on a bike and try riding from gears 1 - 5. Start out in first and accelerate quickly or slowly, but keep on pedaling until it's too fast for your to pedal. Then go to second, you shouldn't feel a jolt. If you switched the second while your bike is still going slowly though, it's gunna be a rough transition.

Posted by: DrunkenMasterA

Well since we're on the subject, how do you do burnout.

i've been driving for awhile now, but never really had the time to do it.

What about hard launches? I seen this guy did it, and everytime he change gear, i hear a loud click. It doesn't sound bad or anything.
Is it because he put throttle all the way down and the rev went up to redline?

Posted by: TheRupp

Could it be that it's a hydraulic clutch in the Hyundai and not in the truck? That'll make a huge difference in clutch behavior when switching between cars too

Posted by: c^2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woogie650

this can be explained a number of ways.

1-2 are usually your accel gears and 3-4-5 are your cruising gears. think of it on a bike. most bikes have like 15-18 speeds. If you're at a stop and the bike is in fifth gear and you slam on the pedal, it's not gunna jerk you forward. the gear is just way too big to have that kind of affect. in first gear however, you'll feel it like a slingshot. You'll be able to feel the most torque in your car in your first and second gears.

Take this into consideration as well. This is a matter of physics - one of newton's laws/principles illustrated with vectors and such. When you're at a dead stop, it takes more power to get the car moving than it does while already in motion. when your car is in motion, it takes very little power to keep it in motion; you only gotta step on the gas a little bit right? There's a greater load on the engine in your first and second gears because A. more mass to get into motion and B. they're your smaller gears. does that make sense?

Like i mentioned earlier, best way to understand this is to hop on a bike and try riding from gears 1 - 5. Start out in first and accelerate quickly or slowly, but keep on pedaling until it's too fast for your to pedal. Then go to second, you shouldn't feel a jolt. If you switched the second while your bike is still going slowly though, it's gunna be a rough transition.

DSG is available even in the Rabbit/Jetta now. I've driven it in an A3 2.0t, and while it's very smooth and pretty cool to play with, I still prefer having full control over my clutch.

Posted by: Roasted

Quote:

Originally Posted by c^2

DSG is available even in the Rabbit/Jetta now. I've driven it in an A3 2.0t, and while it's very smooth and pretty cool to play with, I still prefer having full control over my clutch.

That's funny. DSG creators wrote an article saying even the hardiest of die hard stick shift fans will prefer DSG once they test drive it. This made me chuckle a bit.

I don't think I'd be hesitant to try out a DSG system though... it seems like it'd be fun to tinker with, though I know I'd probably test drove both versions (DSG and regular manual) of the vehicle I'm looking at, then go home for 2-3 weeks and think it over. I like the engineering behind the DSG system though, seems much more interesting than the fricken CVT system.

But in the end, I have a feeling I'd prefer having the third pedal. Something about it...

Posted by: c^2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roasted

That's funny. DSG creators wrote an article saying even the hardiest of die hard stick shift fans will prefer DSG once they test drive it. This made me chuckle a bit.

One thing that bugs me about the DSG system is it's limited torque-handling capacity (at least in VW/Audi applications), capped at 258lb-ft. This becomes a significant issue considering the 2.0t engine can be chipped to produce 303lb-ft, and explains why DSG is not available on higher torque applications like the Audi S4.

That said, I find it a far superior system to CVT, both in theory and in practice. CVT lacks the crispness and responsiveness of DSG.

Given the chance - I'd love to try an SMG too.

Posted by: tommyistommy

I'll never drive anything but a manual. Driving any form of clutchless manual or automatic doesn't work for me. As for the burnout thing, your driving a fwd car correct? Alright, your going to have to pull the handbrake, rev the motor as high as you can, let off the clutch, keep it floored, and let em spin. Its horrible for every part of your car.

Posted by: paul34

Quote:

Originally Posted by c^2

Given the chance - I'd love to try an SMG too.

a sub machine gun?

Posted by: dwong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gquie

Gquie got it right, your car jerks because your gear ratios are not right. You need to be in a certain RPM range when you shift to second to feel the smooth transisiton. The reason why you have keep your foot on the gas pedel while you switch gears to keep a smooth transistion is because keeping your foot on the gas pedel while you are disengaged raises your RPM...which in turn probably kept you at the sweet RPM spot for changing to second gear.

IMO riding the clutch means if your foot is NOT completely off the clutch (like not even touching it..) after you switch gears, is riding the clutch. Your foot should be completely off. That is IMO the best practice.

Posted by: bigsho

Quote:

Originally Posted by c^2

I drove my uncles BMW M3 with the SMG tranny, and it wasn't that great. The shifts weren't really instantaneous like the DSG and it really wasn;t that great not having to use a clutch. These systems are best for those who want to shift manually but not have to learn using a clutch, and for those who want instant shifts (using DSG) when racing.

I prefer my 98 saturn sl 5spd any day over any automatic car or car with clutchless shifting. I like having control of the car in every aspect. Something dsg and smg dont give you.

Posted by: paul34

According to commercials the new Maxima will come with a CVT...