vB Easy Archive - LG CU500 lacks Sidetone, yet it's a great device just not a great phone

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LG CU500 lacks Sidetone, yet it's a great device just not a great phone
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Posted by: Sidetone

The most important part of a mobile phone is that it functions well in its primary role for voice communication. So, RF reception, earpiece and microphone volume are all parts of call quality. Sidetone is very much a part of overall call quality and the CU500 does not have it. Before anyone asks I will explain:

Sidetone is a phone characteristic that routes the microphone pickup back into the earpiece, of the handset, so that when you are on a call, you can hear your own voice and how loud you are speaking. Without it people have a tendency to yell into their phones. Another essential aspect of sidetone is that it confirms that you are still connected when you are on a mobile call, so long as you can hear ambient sound in the earpiece you haven't dropped the call. When there is no sidetone, and the person you are talking with goes silent for a moment, you can easily think the call has been dropped.

If you want to test whether or not your current phone has it just do this, make a call to someone and ask them to just hang up in 10 seconds mid conversation, during the call blow into the mouthpiece...if you hear that in the earpiece you have sidetone, now do it again after they hang up...nothing, you do not hear it, since the call has been disconnected the sidetone is not active. Hey it isn't that important, it has only been incorporated into every landline phone made since 1930 for no reason whatsoever. Experienced cellular manufacturers all incorporate the feature into their handsets, Motorola and Nokia have it, I believe, in every model they have ever made, please correct me if I am wrong? Don't know about Sony/Ericsson but my guess would be that they do.

The CU500 is quite excellent in just about every other regard, the speaker portion is top notch in sound quality, the microphone is good, though far from great, the RF seems good enough and of course it is amazing insofar as 3G HSDPA is concerned. But, I cannot help being reminded of the Toshiba VM4050 when I play with it, only because it was a hot phone when it came out, with an awesome screen for its time, but it too lacked sidetone and so talking on it was far from pleasurable. So I pryed it out of my hands and returned it to Sprint.

I mentioned the sidetone issue in someone elses thread on here, but I believe it deserves its own post. Obviously there are two kinds of mobile phone users those that value voice quality issues first, all other features being secondary in benefit, and those that look at it reversed. This post is meant for the former group as I believe the latter will not have as much objection to this remarkable oversight on LG's part.

Posted by: composmentis

I haven't noticed this at all in my conversations. You state that it's been there since the 30's. I did some quick research and it appears sidetone was simply a side-effect of the accoustics in older phones and digital phones must electronically reproduce this effect. My opinion is that I'll know whether the person is on the line still so I don't need any fake static to prove it. It's just a preference thing I guess, but I really don't care about sidetone.

Posted by: stevOh

Its also known as Comfort Noise Generator (CNG) for short.

Posted by: RE1000

that's interesting info there, but i haven't had any different effects/problems than any other handset or phone, regarding not knowing if the other party is still on the line.

Posted by: Nd_Football

Can Sidetone be added through firmware updates?

Posted by: davistld01

Thanks for the post. I returned my CU500 to Cingular for several reasons, the top one being that as a pure communication device...it just wasn't up to the standard (Razr) that I was attempting to better. The "sidetone", or lack of it, was noticeable to me...although until now I didn't know what I was missing was called. Seems to me that LG put a lot of media technology into the phone, and invested their money into that side of the phone...but neglecting the more basic aspects of the phone in the process. Not a bad thing, but a fact nonetheless. I am sure there are lots of tech-heads out there that are super happy with the phone because it has the features that they set as priorities in a mobile phone. My priorities or different obviously.

The LG CU500 is a great phone at a great price...just not for everybody.

Posted by: walkguru

i happen to be one of the ones that really like this phone. and i dont evan have 3g yet.

Posted by: RE1000

I noticed today on one call i had the fluctuating volume going on, but all the other times the calls have been normal.

Posted by: Sidetone

I found this paper prepared by Donald A. Norman, a Professor in the Electrical Enginering & Computer Science Department at Northwestern University, for the 2005 Motorola Research Visionary Board. Copyright © 2005 Donald A. Norman, here is a quote from it,

"In the early days of the telephone, the problem of speaking level was widely noted and discussed. The technological innovation was clever: a small amount of a person's voice was fed back to the earpiece, and people then naturally adjusted the loudness of their spoken voice to produce a comfortable level of feedback in the earpiece. Numerous studies in auditory psychophysics were performed to determine the correct amount of this feedback -- sidetone was the technical term."

The point that I am making about sidetone in general is that it is an essential component of telephones, it was developed to accomodate the interrelationship between human speech and hearing. We only speak at correct volume and with proper diction due to our own hearing. This is exactly why people who are losing their hearing begin to speak at louder volumes. The lack of sidetone causes the listening ear to be deafened to our own voice during conversation, it is similar in a way to hearing loss.

A lot of phones do not have it and it is possible that some people have had one phone after another without it at all, but if you ever had a good cellular phone with it and then switch to a phone without it, you will see how dramatic the change is.

If anyone has a Razr, with good earpiece volume, hacked or just lucky, and also has the CU500 then just pull your sim card out and switch back and forth between the two phones for a call or two. The Razr has sidetone and the CU500 does not, remember you are listening for your own voice in the earpiece. If you cannot tell the difference nothing I have said in this post will matter to you, and I don't mean that in a bad way at all. Like I said I wrote this because I believe some people will find this a very serious shortcomming and others will not.

By the way I just happen to use the Razr as an example, any flip with sidetone and good speaker volume will do for comparrison sake.

Posted by: ranphi

Interesting info. I guess I'm one of the ones who doesn't notice (and, consequently, doesn't care) about this though.

Call quality is very important to me in whatever cell phone I currently use. I despised the RAZR because the earpiece volume (without hacking) was just WAY to freaking low even at the max volume. I don't know how anyone could possibly use the RAZR in a noisy/crowded place. After I hacked the RAZR to increase the volume of the earpiece it was better, but then it developed the infamous buzzing in the earpiece problem and it happened on 2 diff RAZRs for me, so I gave up on it.

I got a SLVR and, again, had to hack it to increase the earpiece volume and it turned out much better than either of my RAZRs had afterwards. I really loved my SLVR and had a hard time giving it up, but after trying out the CU500 I couldn't resist because of a few key benefits the CU500 has for me.

Both the earpiece and the ringer volume of the CU500 are phenomenal, IMHO. This phone is LOUD! It actually hurts my ear if I crank up the volume too loud during a call.

And the volume for the ringer for incoming calls is also fantastic. There's no way you can not hear this phone if you have the volume set at 6 (or higher).

Also, the vibrate function of the CU500 is quite strong. I can immediately feel it vibrate with an incoming call while I'm carrying the phone around in my front jeans pocket and this was a problem with my SLVR. The vibrate function on it was just to weak and I would miss calls with the phone in my pocket because of it.

I can't discern any of the sidetone issues described here during a call, and I'm quite glad that's the case since the CU500 pleases me very much with it's call quality.

The only issue I've ever had with it in regards to call quality was the fluctuating volume of the earpiece during a call and turning off the halfrate AMR fixed that issue for me.

Posted by: mec31

In my view, sidetone is absolutely critical, in at least one situation. Many mobiles, mostly flips, are susceptible to the user breathing into the voice pickup. Without sidetone, the person who is actually doing the breathing can't hear it! Feel lucky if you are ever on a call when the other person is inadvertantly breathing into their phone. At times it can sound like a hurricane. In the same way that sidetone allows one to modulate their speaking voice, it permits them to quickly and unconsciously correct the breathing situation. Note that most bar phones don't have this problem, as the mic is nowhere near the mouth (usually).

Posted by: awj223

My old Nokia 3360 had sidetone, and I became very used to it. When I switched to the SE T62u (GAIT), there was no sidetone/comfort noise generator. This took some time getting used to. Deprived of audio cues, I quickly learned to glance at the display whenever I was unsure if a call was still connected.

Now enter the CU500, which not only does not have sidetone but also has a habit of turning the displays off during conversations (and when the phone is in standby). I can understand backlights off to save battery power, but displays off completely is another matter.

Posted by: Faceless Rebel

My V400 of course had sidetone, and the first few days with my CU500 took some adjusting to. I had to consciously think to myself how loud I was speaking and purposely make sure I was using a normal conversational volume when talking into my CU500. After a few days, I became used to it and now I can talk normally on my CU500 without thinking about not shouting into it.

It is true, however, that it's hard to tell if your call is dropped or not without sidetone. Lucky for me, my CU500 seems to give me great reception (though somewhat worse than the V400 it replaced) so I don't really have any problems with dropped calls. I've driven all the way from Everett to Seattle on I-5 seamlessly, handing off all the way down, without any problems. I'm pretty sure that I pass in and out of 3G areas too on that route, and 2G/3G handoff seems to work for me, though sometimes I notice during a 2G/3G handoff the call cuts out for a second, then resumes.

Posted by: larsicus

First of all, do not hold me responsible for what you do to your phone. You may 'brick' it. You may void the warranty. You may permanently damage your hearing. I might be making all this up. Your risk.

And furthermore, please read this: You may not want to turn it on, especially if you're already used to the phone without sidetone.

I live in a 3G area, but the phone often slips into 2G. ("E" or "G") When that happens, I hear a lot of buzzing. (216 Hz?) If I set the phone to 3G mode only, There is no buzzing, but a lot more dropped calls. It's important to note that before I turned on sidetone, the party on the other end would occasionally complain about a buzzing noise. When I turned it on, and the phone was in "Dual" mode, we both heard the buzzing at the same time.

Sadly, it seems that sidetone was disabled to cover up a defect in the phone.
With that in mind, here is what I did to turn on sidetone on my CU500, V10c (Aug 03 2006):

Enter "Phone Test Mode":
277634#*#
3. Device Test
6. Sound
7. LGEMM Codec Test [navigate with wheel- '7' points to something else]
2. VOCODER CALIBRATION
2. Backup VOC DB to EFS
[just in case-- you can retrieve the old settings with Bitpim]
3. CHANGE VOCODER DB:
File ID: G_CHIP_0
VOC DB Item: codec_st_gain(dec)
Set Data: [enter "8000"]
Now press the right soft key (CANCEL) to return to the previous menu

1. Write VOC DB to EFS

That will do it.

Posted by: jdsmi

Very interesting topic. Now that I know what is happening, this is something I have noticed on my CU500. When a call would be dropped on my V551, I could tell. Something I've noticed on my LG is when a call is dropped, it will just disappear. As a matter of fact, It just happened this morning before I read this post.
I didn't think much of it but now that I know what it is, I suppose it'll get very annoying.

Thanks for the info.

Posted by: davistld01

This is kind of off topic now, but since I have pretty much switched to Sony Ericsson phones after years of nothing but Motorolas I have noticed that the SE's have a lot less pronounced sidetone than the Motos. I feel that the incoming and outgoing call quality of the SE's, at least on my phones, is far superior to any phones I've used up until now. But, sometimes I have to say "hello", because I can't tell if the person on the other end is still there or not!

Sounds dumb, but it's true.

Posted by: larsicus

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsmi

Very interesting topic. Now that I know what is happening, this is something I have noticed on my CU500. When a call would be dropped on my V551, I could tell. Something I've noticed on my LG is when a call is dropped, it will just disappear. As a matter of fact, It just happened this morning before I read this post.
I didn't think much of it but now that I know what it is, I suppose it'll get very annoying.

Thanks for the info.

You're welcome-- though I can't see how you're any better off now than you were before you realized that there was a problem.

Posted by: jdsmi

Not any better off other than a little more knowledge and awareness.

Posted by: dougm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranphi

The only issue I've ever had with it in regards to call quality was the fluctuating volume of the earpiece during a call and turning off the halfrate AMR fixed that issue for me.

How did you disable AMR Halfrate? I figured out how to turn off AMR altogether and make the phone use EFR, but I've dug through this forum and still haven't found the answer.

Posted by: guapinoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsicus

First of all, do not hold me responsible for what you do to your phone. You may 'brick' it. You may void the warranty. You may permanently damage your hearing. I might be making all this up. Your risk.

And furthermore, please read this: You may not want to turn it on, especially if you're already used to the phone without sidetone.

I live in a 3G area, but the phone often slips into 2G. ("E" or "G") When that happens, I hear a lot of buzzing. (216 Hz?) If I set the phone to 3G mode only, There is no buzzing, but a lot more dropped calls. It's important to note that before I turned on sidetone, the party on the other end would occasionally complain about a buzzing noise. When I turned it on, and the phone was in "Dual" mode, we both heard the buzzing at the same time.

Sadly, it seems that sidetone was disabled to cover up a defect in the phone.
With that in mind, here is what I did to turn on sidetone on my CU500, V10c (Aug 03 2006):

Enter "Phone Test Mode":
277634#*#
3. Device Test
6. Sound
7. LGEMM Codec Test [navigate with wheel- '7' points to something else]
2. VOCODER CALIBRATION
2. Backup VOC DB to EFS
[just in case-- you can retrieve the old settings with Bitpim]
3. CHANGE VOCODER DB:
File ID: G_CHIP_0
VOC DB Item: codec_st_gain(dec)
Set Data: [enter "8000"]
Now press the right soft key (CANCEL) to return to the previous menu

1. Write VOC DB to EFS

That will do it.

thanks!!! Now i can hear myself breath into the mic, hehe

Posted by: ironchef86

just tried the sidetone hack and works but after i hangup i hear this loud whining noise. maybe its just me. changed it back to the default for now. what was the default value for codec_st_gain(dec)? just want to be sure. thanks.

Posted by: dougm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironchef86

just tried the sidetone hack and works but after i hangup i hear this loud whining noise. maybe its just me. changed it back to the default for now. what was the default value for codec_st_gain(dec)? just want to be sure. thanks.

That's because there's a "feedback loop" caused by the sidetone. The microphone hears itself and the phone freaks out briefly because there's a "hall of mirrors" effect with the audio. Kind of like when you're at a concert and they do the sound checks and you hear all the squeaking. The workaround is to press the End button before you close your phone.

Posted by: larsicus

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironchef86

The default gain was "0000" (there was no sidetone

)

I've used this a few times since I figured it out yesterday-- once for a rather long conversation. I have clear line-of-sight to a 3G tower here, and I had no problems with the buzzing I reported last night. I think it ought to be set a little lower, though. It sounds okay at "4000"

It will help if everyone who tries this posts their experience here. That way, we can all find the optimal settings more quickly. (For example, should any of the other settings be changed to compensate for the increase in sidetone gain?) Is there any way to minimize the buzzing while in 2G mode?

Posted by: ironchef86

just set mine to 4500 and the loud whining noise is gone. of course this is all of preference to each individual. this does make a phone conversation more enjoyable since you're not thinking you may have dropped a call every couple of minutes. nice find larsicus.

Posted by: jbzcar

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsicus

Worked great after I power cycled the phone. I get the annoying noise also. Sounds just like my RAZR did.

Posted by: AnythingBUTROAM

Larsicus - Thanks so much! This is def a great help. This phone is getting better and better.

I am trying the Set Data: at "3000". I am getting some static but the overall call quality isn't bad.

Is anyone else experiencing "more" static after this edit?

PS I really should find something more productive to do than phone modding on a Sunday morning... like drive 10 miles to Wal-Mart! hehe

Posted by: jbzcar

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnythingBUTROAM

Larsicus - Thanks so much! This is def a great help. This phone is getting better and better.

I am trying the Set Data: at "3000". I am getting some static but the overall call quality isn't bad.

Is anyone else experiencing "more" static after this edit?

PS I really should find something more productive to do than phone modding on a Sunday morning... like drive 10 miles to Wal-Mart! hehe

I've tested various values between 1500 and 8000. Anything below about 2500 is useless, and they ALL had that annoying buzzing sound.

I set it back to 0000 and am much happier.

Posted by: Fresh-Popcorn

I set mine at 4000 and works great, Even at 8000 I never heard any buzzing sounds.

Posted by: larsicus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresh-Popcorn

I set mine at 4000 and works great, Even at 8000 I never heard any buzzing sounds.

I think that the buzzing is interference from the radio in certain modes. Right now, well out of a 3G area, my phone is displaying "G" with 5 bars. No buzzing. At work, when I have a good 3G signal, there's no buzzing. It's only when I'm at home, where the signal is a little patchy, and slips from 3G to "E", do I get the buzzing.

Like I said before, I think LG was covering up a design flaw by turning off the sidetone. I'm happy to hear that this fix works for some folks-- but if it doesn't, I can't see what would. Take it back to Cingular and tell 'em what you think!

Posted by: dlsnyder

I wonder if this is a problem common among LG phones in general. We just switched over to Sprint a couple of weeks ago, and I got an LG PM-225 for my wife. It was a miserable little phone for many reasons, but also lacked sidetone. Even if this hack might have also worked for that phone I don't think we would have kept it. Anyone else have this experience with other LG phones?

Posted by: jbo12

When I followed the procedure to change the sidetone, I attempted to enter 4000 in the set data field and it came back with an error message saying "wrong range". Does 4000 need to be in quotes? Also, when you back up VOC DB to EFS, does it just enable you to look at the settings using BitPIM or is there a way to restore the original settings. I didn't see a restore option on the phone test menu.

Posted by: larsicus

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbo12

When I followed the procedure to change the sidetone, I attempted to enter 4000 in the set data field and it came back with an error message saying "wrong range". Does 4000 need to be in quotes? Also, when you back up VOC DB to EFS, does it just enable you to look at the settings using BitPIM or is there a way to restore the original settings. I didn't see a restore option on the phone test menu.

The value does not need to be in quotes. I did not get that error. What version of the CU500 firmware do you have?

The "Backup VOC DB to EFS" doesn't seem like it offers a method of automatically retrieving and restoring to the backed-up settings. That is a little odd.

Posted by: jbo12

I am using the same version as you, V10c (Aug 03 2006). Seems odd that we would get different results. Above the Set Data field there is a Get Data field with the value 0001 that you didn't mention in your instructions. Is it the same on your phone? I entered 4000 in the Set Data field by pressing the orange Cingular OK key. Seems obvious but you didn't mention that so I wanted to be sure. Thanks.

Posted by: kastonie

sidetone...no wonder the phone just keeps falling out my hand and away from my ear every time i try to use it. I was never able to make a phone call because of this. Man now im glad i know what the problem is....I cant live without sidetone...

Posted by: Fresh-Popcorn

Quote:

Originally Posted by kastonie

sidetone...no wonder the phone just keeps falling out my hand and away from my ear every time i try to use it. I was never able to make a phone call because of this. Man now im glad i know what the problem is....I cant live without sidetone...

Posted by: shirsh

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsicus

Larsicus, AWESOME post! works great! do you know of any other tweaks that can be performed?

Posted by: Fresh-Popcorn

I heard that there was a hack to make the speaker phone louder, is that true?
Its speaker phone is pretty decent as it is but I a little extra boost in those noisy outside areas would be nice.

Posted by: jbo12

Larsicus, apparently I need to learn how to follow instructions more carefully. When I went back to do this again, it worked as you said.

Posted by: LEDfoot

Sidetone... good gracious, next you'll be complaining there's no rotary dial...

Though, glad to see it's possible to change it for those who want that particular functionality... I don't know about the rest of you, but my cu500 has a pleasant, muted little chime telling me when a call has been dropped mid-conversation, no need for guessing.

Posted by: walkguru

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEDfoot

Sidetone... good gracious, next you'll be complaining there's no rotary dial...

Though, glad to see it's possible to change it for those who want that particular functionality... I don't know about the rest of you, but my cu500 has a pleasant, muted little chime telling me when a call has been dropped mid-conversation, no need for guessing.

he he, was waiting for that.

Posted by: dougm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEDfoot

The call drop chime is too quiet. When I'm driving or in a noisy environment, without the sidetone when a call drops I can barely tell if I've been talking into a black hole for 15 seconds or if someone is still on the other end.

Posted by: LEDfoot

You can't hear the chime but you can hear the absence of the sidetone?
Seems to me what you need is a way to set the loudness/duration of the chime rather than the sidetone.

Posted by: LEDfoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkguru

he he, was waiting for that.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a troll... but the "features" the people decides to make such a big deal out of... The sidetone is an age old workaround for a problem long gone. There are much less annoying ways to notify the user that a call was dropped.

Posted by: walkguru

Wirelessly posted (Walkguru's: LG-CU500 Obigo/WAP2.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEDfoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkguru

he he, was waiting for that.

No prob. Its not that big a deal to me.

Posted by: fman74

Worked great! thanks

Posted by: jbzcar

So I got a replacement CU500 from XBM today, my old one kept dropping signal and calls. The new one has the v10c software and most importantly when I enable sidetone, it actually works without any annoying buzzing! I am very happy.

Also, the little sticker on the back says "Qualcomm 3G UMTS" instead of CDMA on this one.

Posted by: tuolumne

Funny, because Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson, and Sanyo all do not use sidestone. They also account for over half of mobile phone sales worldwide. Clearly, the lack of sidestone doesn't hurt.

Posted by: jbzcar

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuolumne

Funny, because Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson, and Sanyo all do not use sidestone. They also account for over half of mobile phone sales worldwide. Clearly, the lack of sidestone doesn't hurt.

I agree. I turned it back off after about 5 minutes. I am used to not having it and the novelty wore off quickly.

Posted by: larsicus

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuolumne

Funny, because Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson, and Sanyo all do not use sidestone. They also account for over half of mobile phone sales worldwide. Clearly, the lack of sidestone doesn't hurt.

Have you noticed that Microsoft Windows has more than 75% of the PC OS market? Do you believe that this is because of their superior PC operating system? I hope not.

I'd like to point out, also, that my LG L1400 has excellent sidetone.