Bell HSPA coming to Manitoba August 1st

Looks good. Does this mean 3G can also function on this network (iPhone4)?

Too bad they did not set up to set down onto CDMA, since the iPhone4S is GSM as well as CDMA capable when outside HSPA coverage.

Originally Posted by RogersUser1

Looks good. Does this mean 3G can also function on this network (iPhone4)?

Too bad they did not set up to set down onto CDMA, since the iPhone4S is GSM as well as CDMA capable when outside HSPA coverage.

CDMA = MTS
HSPA = Bell

The two technologies do not interoperate within Canada, nevermind in MB being two separate carriers. Even MTS iPhone does not fallback to CDMA.

So will it allow HSPA roaming still? I was there a number of months back and my phone was allowed to roam (on Telus HSPA I assume?) Coverage was halfway decent.

Originally Posted by WorldIRC

CDMA = MTS
HSPA = Bell

The two technologies do not interoperate within Canada, nevermind in MB being two separate carriers. Even MTS iPhone does not fallback to CDMA.

Last I checked Bell still operates a CDMA network, although they don't sign up new CDMA phones anymore. If you have a Telus CDMA device and you are in a Bell CDMA area, you are on Bell's CDMA network. Also sprint roams onto this network for CDMA handsets, there may be others I'm not sure.

Would be nice if all the carriers with access to a functioning CDMA network (Bell, Telus, MTS) would allow 4S to step down to CDMA when outside UMTS/HSPA/LTE, since MB coverage is still quite bad. But I realize nobody does this in Canada. Are there simply not enough CDMA devices anymore?

Originally Posted by RogersUser1

Last I checked Bell still operates a CDMA network, although they don't sign up new CDMA phones anymore. If you have a Telus CDMA device and you are in a Bell CDMA area, you are on Bell's CDMA network. Also sprint roams onto this network for CDMA handsets, there may be others I'm not sure.

Would be nice if all the carriers with access to a functioning CDMA network (Bell, Telus, MTS) would allow 4S to step down to CDMA when outside UMTS/HSPA/LTE, since MB coverage is still quite bad. But I realize nobody does this in Canada. Are there simply not enough CDMA devices anymore?

Bell operates a CDMA network in provinces other than SK and MB. They do still sign up new lines on the CDMA network. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here...there is a technological reason why the carriers have chosen to not offer dual-band service on both CDMA and HSPA at the same time. There are many billing system issues as to why this cannot happen (the way CDMA works is very different than HSPA); the handoff / transition process would be pretty ugly.

Bell also does not operate a CDMA network in Manitoba; they roam on MTS. As Bell HSPA and MTS CDMA have ZERO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER, and as Bell Manitoba HSPA customers are NOT AUTHORIZED TO ACCESS MTS SERVICES IN ANY FASHION (except 911), it will be impossible for the iPhone 4S in Bell to roam on MTS, despite whatever technologies the handset may support.

Even if a hybrid HSPA / CDMA configuration were allowed, this could only exist in provinces other than SK and MB, where Bell is the provider of both services.

Originally Posted by WorldIRC

Bell operates a CDMA network in provinces other than SK and MB. They do still sign up new lines on the CDMA network. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here...there is a technological reason why the carriers have chosen to not offer dual-band service on both CDMA and HSPA at the same time. There are many billing system issues as to why this cannot happen (the way CDMA works is very different than HSPA); the handoff / transition process would be pretty ugly.

Bell also does not operate a CDMA network in Manitoba; they roam on MTS. As Bell HSPA and MTS CDMA have ZERO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER, and as Bell Manitoba HSPA customers are NOT AUTHORIZED TO ACCESS MTS SERVICES IN ANY FASHION (except 911), it will be impossible for the iPhone 4S in Bell to roam on MTS, despite whatever technologies the handset may support.

Even if a hybrid HSPA / CDMA configuration were allowed, this could only exist in provinces other than SK and MB, where Bell is the provider of both services.

Thanks, this is quite informative. I guess this explains why nobody sells the iPhone4 CDMA version here. So what are the reasons that Bell does not offer both services in MB and SK? Just never built a network?, or is it about MTS and Sasktel government monopoly protection? On a carrier offering both services, why is the handoff ugly? In the US Verizon offers both services correct? Is the handoff difficult on that network, why/why not?

Again, it really becomes a matter of a few factors:

1. The iPhone is the only device in Canada that supports both CDMA and HSPA
2. Because of 1, the billing system and switch are not and cannot be provisioned to operate on both at the same time.
3. Because of 2, how would the system even know when to hand off from HSPA to CDMA...the networks overlay each other.

Like I said, it would be ugly.

Verizon is a bad example, because on Verizon, data flows over LTE, but voice flows over CDMA; similar to here except LTE / HSPA. On Sprint, data flows over WiMax / 4G and voice flows over CDMA as well.

There are political reasons why up until recent, Bell did not have native service in SK and MB. Perhaps someone can tell you the story if you're really interested....

Originally Posted by RogersUser1

On a carrier offering both services, why is the handoff ugly? In the US Verizon offers both services correct? Is the handoff difficult on that network, why/why not?

Other than maybe some Australian carriers, Bell/Telus (and I guess Sasktel/MTS/etc which followed) are the only carriers to have gone CDMA -> UMTS/HSPA -> LTE. The American carriers like Verizon are going CDMA -> LTE, and I understand that when Qualcomm killed UMB, things were added to LTE to enable interoperation with CDMA networks.

Basically, Bell/Telus were in a rather unusual position that
a) they were getting their asses kicked in the marketplace due to the most popular devices not being available (iPhone) or being late (some BlackBerries) or being slow (data sticks) for CDMA,
b) they had, especially when pooled together, enough unused 850/1900MHz spectrum that they could build a completely different network (Verizon doesn't have that luxury)
c) they had relatively few partners on whom they depended for key coverage. Primarily Sasktel, which went along with the UMTS move a year later, and MTS/TBTel, which also embraced UMTS, buuuuuuut got into bed with Rogers, leaving Bell/Telus with two big coverage holes. (If they could get UMTS devices which fall back on CDMA, that would have avoided that problem, along with other coverage issues, but no one makes such devices)
(oh, and d) I suspect the back end for LTE is fairly similar to that required for a modern HSPA network)
... so they decided to throw a big amount of money on an extremely unorthodox migration.

(Years later, Apple would launch a phone that at least on paper supports both CDMA and UMTS on 850/1900. But not only are Bell/Telus' provisioning systems not set up for it, but we don't even know if Apple's software, Qualcomm's firmware, etc. would enable this extremely unorthodox setup)

Originally Posted by RogersUser1

Would be nice if all the carriers with access to a functioning CDMA network (Bell, Telus, MTS) would allow 4S to step down to CDMA when outside UMTS/HSPA/LTE, since MB coverage is still quite bad. But I realize nobody does this in Canada. Are there simply not enough CDMA devices anymore?

I loved that idea too... but at the end of the day, we don't even know if the Apple/Qualcomm software can do it.

And I get the sense that, in layman's terms, the network is roughly set up like this:
1. Phone call comes in for 416-xxx-xxxx.
2. Switch looks up whether 416-xxx-xxxx is an HSPA or CDMA subscriber
3. Call is relayed onto the appropriate network
That kind of structure doesn't really allow for the same device to be used on both networks...

If there were carriers doing UMTS and CDMA together in a larger market, then maybe 3GPP, Apple, Qualcomm, etc. would do something to enable this to work. But right now, Apple is treating Telus/Bell as Just Another GSM/UMTS Carrier (except for removing the 'enable 3G' option).

[The other thing is, of course, I presume Bell/Telus could go to Apple, get the CDMA-flavoured iPhone 4S, and provision it as a straight CDMA device. But other than people who go through northern Ontario and Manitoba, who would want that?]

Originally Posted by VivienM

[The other thing is, of course, I presume Bell/Telus could go to Apple, get the CDMA-flavoured iPhone 4S, and provision it as a straight CDMA device. But other than people who go through northern Ontario and Manitoba, who would want that?]

Yes I see your point, the number of people needing that is extremely small. I'm in the minority position of having an iPhone4 on Telus in Winnipeg, and when I drive to Regina I get no service from Portage to the SK border. This affects very few people.

When you say CDMA-flavored iPhone4S, are you talking about iPhone4? There is only one version of 4S as far as I know, and it is CDMA and GSM capable.

Originally Posted by RogersUser1

When you say CDMA-flavored iPhone4S, are you talking about iPhone4? There is only one version of 4S as far as I know, and it is CDMA and GSM capable.

As far as I know, there is one hardware design of the 4S.

But I believe in the U.S. there are always separate SKUs for the CDMA carriers (even at the Apple store). Is this about locking? About Sprint/Verizon only wanting to activate phones whose ESNs they know ahead of time? Or could it be that the Sprint/Verizon ones are preloaded with a slightly different iOS image or baseband from the international 'GSM' flavour?

The Qualcomm chip in there can do CDMA 800/1900, UMTS 850/900/1900/2100 and GSM. But who knows whether it can do all of those at once? Maybe there's a 'CDMA 800/1900, UMTS 900/2100' mode that's enabled for Sprint/Verizon domestic/international use, and a separate 'UMTS 850/1900/900/2100' mode that's used elsewhere.

Point being, we don't know if an off-the-shelf iPhone 4S sitting in a Telus store is capable of being set up as a CDMA (CDMA-only, that is) device even if, say, the VP of Engineering wanted it for use at his family home in rural Manitoba.

Note one other thing: Apple says that the non-US models can't roam on CDMA, I believe. Is this a network-side business or technical issue (i.e. European carriers have no roaming agreements with CDMA carriers because only one phone can take advantage of it?), or a device limitation (the non-US model is missing 'something' that means it can't be used on Verizon/Sprint even with the right network provisioning)?

At the end of the day, we're facing a simple reality: the only carriers that could potentially use a device that can simultaneously do CDMA 800/1900, UMTS 850/1900 are Bell/Telus/Sasktel/etc. The only carriers that buy the 'standard' UMTS iPhone SKU who might also want to buy the CDMA flavour are... Bell/Telus/Sasktel/etc, and they'd probably want a few hundred CDMA-flavoured ones. Not exactly a priority for Qualcomm/Apple.

I'm a bit surprised, but Bell's bringing a store to Brandon. I thought that their Source stores would be the defacto Bell Stores, especially as going to a The Source is pretty depressing when looking for phones - displays have spots for over a dozen phones, but there's only 2-3 phones in the displays

http://i.imgur.com/WYXR0.jpg

Perhaps the HSPA service in Brandon is going to be turned on sooner than we think.

Are these seriously the only plans they offer? http://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Cell_pho...and_Data_plans

Might just as well go with Telus and get a much better deal + same coverage.

^There are other plan categories; most Bell plans are available in MB, including the $60 Fab 10.

The website is probably just incomplete or "maybe" there will be regional promos to compete.

Plans really aren't any great. If MTS actually got their heads out of their derrieres and got phones that people actually want (with the plans they currently have), MTS wouldn't really have anything to worry about, but not everyone wants an old device, an iPhone or Blackberry.

And on the same page, of Bell/Telus would get similar coverage, they could easily steal a lot of customers from MTS.

Originally Posted by Hans_Moleman

Plans really aren't any great. If MTS actually got their heads out of their derrieres and got phones that people actually want (with the plans they currently have), MTS wouldn't really have anything to worry about, but not everyone wants an old device, an iPhone or Blackberry.

I think if MTS pulls in a decent modern Android phone or two, and keeps bringing in the newest iPhones, they will be the dominant player in Manitoba like they are now. Bell won't be much of a threat at all.

Sent from my A501 using Tapatalk 2

Originally Posted by Derfel

I think if MTS pulls in a decent modern Android phone or two, and keeps bringing in the newest iPhones, they will be the dominant player in Manitoba like they are now. Bell won't be much of a threat at all.

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Bring in a Nexus and a (near) top of the line Samsung and that will satisfy just about enough people. The Koodo and Virgin 6GB plans interest me as my plan will be more expensive than that plan this time next month, but coverage is #1 for me. I do think one day we will see Telus (and with that, Bell) push for more towers sprinkled all over the province, but that won't happen if they fail at attracting customers.

I'm still twidling my thumbs waiting to see if/when Wind will come to Manitoba, apparently when it launches in MB, it's both Brandon and Winnipeg. But hey, with Telus (and Koodo) and Bell (and Virgin) now soon in the Brandon market (and Bell in Winnipeg), I hope this pushes for competition reminiscent of the $10 voice plan way back when

Originally Posted by Derfel

I think if MTS pulls in a decent modern Android phone or two, and keeps bringing in the newest iPhones, they will be the dominant player in Manitoba like they are now. Bell won't be much of a threat at all.

Sent from my A501 using Tapatalk 2

We're not talking about MTS. Keep MTS discussions in the MTS forum please.

Just because you live outside of the coverage zone doesn't mean the rest of Manitoba does.