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Where's the power button?
Very slightly off topic, I apologize if discussed elsewhere, but pertains to Cingular modifications to exisitng contracts. On my current bill there is a notice about the immediate change of the arbitration clause. Changes are significant, it reduces the rights of the subscriber with respect to lawsuits. I too disagree with Cingular changing the text msg rates but Cingular would not budge in the least with respect to the ETF. No need to rehash the previous 53 pages of comments about that. But, I also did not agree with the arbitration changes. After exactly 1 one hour on the phone with 1 csr and 2 supervisors, Cingular agreed to let me out with no ETF. I recited the CTIA item number 7 clause to them, in which Cingular first replied that the arbitration clause is not a "material change" to the contract. Only rate changes are material changes. After several back and forth professional and calm exhanges with the supervisors, Cingular agreed with me in that it most certainly is a material change to the contract and that Cingular did not provide sufficient notice of the change (as in the CTIA #7). The bill had stated that the change was effective immediately.
Phone Collector
Congradulations, united1 !! You have found another way out of a horrible, binding, "living" contract. I thought it was strange they raise our contract PPU prices and also excempt themselves from class action suits at the same time! I will have to try that, but I need my (Cingular's) own legal paperwork ready.. Time for round 3 with Big Blue(orange) !!
O.k.. they just hung up on me.,, so time for Round 4!
Last edited by david7700; 01-05-2007 at 06:45 PM.
Post Machine
This may be new thread worthy...forget about the PPU fiasco, they can't just up and change a contract in an world I'm aware of!Originally Posted by united1
Either I've had too much jungle juice or King ED has!
hofo codemonkey
Awesome, united1!
"My downfall raises me to infinite heights." -Napoleon Bonaparte
01101010 ...
I have a blue tooth
Jungle juice! Yeah! ... I just made a comment in the Verizon forum that my tequila is getting to me...
Phone Collector
"We may change any terms, conditions, rates, fees, expenses, or charges regarding your service at any time."
I knew this was a fishy part of the contract "terms of service" but now it's really comming back to bite me in the A$$ ! ! ! !
I've climbed a cellphone tower
Known to you because? You are smarter than us? Your are the Cingular Top Contract Lawyer? Again, you say you are just presenting your opinion, but you are saying the same thing over and over and not really facing the fact that there have been some reasonable examples of alternate interpretations.
You have stated elsewhere that you work at Cingular HQ ... again, are you their contract lawyer? And, even if you are, I am willing to bet if I got a bunch of consumer lawyers in a room together there would be plenty of debate over the issue, especially since the PPU feature is listed under my PLAN and not my other services, and that the price is listed in the brochure in the "INCLUDED" features. But, you continue to ignore this aspect.
Yes, maybe so...but I am not sure who's understanding is the "misunderstanding"....I feel there has been reasonable debate...by many members on the other side.
This was already discussed previously. Nothing new presented there. The well quoted paragraph states if Cingular "INCREASES"...and says nothing about decreasing pricing. If Cingular sees they are losing market share and want to adjust rates down to keep their current customers that is their prerogative. And, no, I doubt we would complain.
Ummm, well, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that. In one of the threads, grandfathering of those that are on Month To Month was discussed....and, it was agreed that this has been industry standard for the most part, but that with 30 days notice, either party can terminate the month to month. So, yes, if Cingular tells someone that is off contract they had to pick a new plan or their service would terminate in 30 days, that person could choose to move on, or pick a current plan. And, yes, the customer always wants more for less....do you really go into a store to buy XYZ and say, gee, I wish the store would charge me more? And, tell me, when the gas prices at the pump were at all time highs did you say WOW! GOOD, why don't they double it?
Phone Collector
I think CingularZ is trying to say:
"you should expect Cingular to raise their prices because they are a mega-conglomerate corporation that is trying to monopolize the market by combining celllular service/cable/internet/home phone service all in 1 company, AT&T!"
Welcome to the end of "customer is always right" kind of friendly competitive business. This is the time of Microsoft and other bullying monopolies. .
I've climbed a cellphone tower
[Well, I didn't before this thread.
Now you are getting personal.NO, I am not a TWO FACE, I happen to be able to think outside the box and can be in support of Cingular when it is due, and critical when due. But, if you had read my posts over time, I have often said that many times the problems with the CS is because the management 1) doesn't give them the tools to do their job, and 2) Cingular management does a poor job of communicating to their staff, and their customers.
No, I have never said that...but you have made it a personal vendetta to counter everything with a virually absolute statement of Cingular's being right rather than truly discuss. If you had read this entire thread, I was one that said that Cingular did not break the contract by posting the notice of the rate change...I have not said that people have an absolute right and Cingular should just drop dead and not raise the rate, instead, I discussed how Cingular could have handled it better and maybe actually ended up with MORE people taking plans. I offered possible discussion points for those that want to fight the issue with Cingular. However, it is YOU that have told us that WE CAN'T READ and that YOUR interpretation of the well quoted paragraph is THE ONLY possible interpretation. You seem to have as great a need to defend Cingular as I have to offer reasons that maybe the paragraph is not that cut and dry in favor of Cingular.
Well as they say YMMV. There is no BEST carrier...only the BEST for any particular person's needs at that moment in time. What is best for me today, may not be best for me tomorrow. And, with what I am seeing of Cingular the past 10 months or so, I am willing to bet it won't be much longer before Cingular is no longer the BEST for ME.
I understand the terminology JUST FINE. And, as far as Cingular management not making decisions based on HOFO, I never said it did. However, Cingular has backed off on the agressiveness of their LTV Upgrade evaluation and in past when the various AG's get involved. That is why I have said that everyone that uses minimal TXT should not pay the increase or get a TXT plan unless they really, really need it right now. Otherwise, they should be calling Cingular and having TXT blocked and tell them why. Again ... discussed many times already -- that apparently Cingular cannot even assure that they block all but ADMIN TXT ]
YOU are going around in circles. As far as me going after it and proving it...I am off contract and already have my TXT blocked along with International calling that Cingular added without asking me. You are taking this far to personally. YOU insist you are right, yet refuse to address the points I brought up and insist your interperation is the ONLY right one. I , on the other hand, have acknowledged in posts that 1) Cingular did not break contract by "announcing" the price increase, or by "increasing the price" --- I have never said they don't have a right.
My contention is that they are not clear in what is covered. And because they did not spell it out specifically, I have provided some possible points to respond to their claim that it is not a "material" change. I have also said that I didn't think anyone would win by calling customer service (since Cingular circled the wagons) and that the only way to find out would be to follow the formal dispute process. I am open minded to the possibility that someone might succeed in this process, or might not. But YOU can only say that WE are UNABLE to READ and that YOU KNOW EXACTLY how the arbitrators and lawyers would side on the issue.
Oh, I see....this increase was out of the goodness of Cingular's heart.There were all these customers that are paying more in PPU TEXT than if they had the msg plan, so they will raise the rate even more so that maybe the folks doing this will wake up out of their TXT fog and subscribe so it shows as an increase in the ARPU?? That debate has already been discussed. We all know this is all about the ARPU. We have all admitted that already. I thnk Cingular needs a new marketing team...too many mis-steps lately. They could get a lot more new TXT plans by letting those that haven't used TXT get free TXT from their friends that do...they might just find it is useful and then become hooked and on a plan themselves. JMO.
Hey, if you read all my posts, you can see I didn't start the Fanboy thing until the FANBOYS insisted their reading was the only reading. I was happy debating until then. But, when someone tells me I CAN'T READ I take offense. I think YOU have made far more assumptions than I have. I am glad to discuss, but you don't seem to be able to more than lecture. Sorry, I am not up to be lectured by a Cingular employee.
Last edited by TxTwin; 01-05-2007 at 10:32 PM.
Mobile Pro
I think you put this so well. I am saving this message and adding it to the package I am putting together on this.The issue of "Subscription" has been discussed thoroughly....So, if I am on contract and have [Okay I'll use the brochure I have handy to make it easiest] -- the Family Talk Plan for 700RO for $69.00? Am I subscribed to that PLAN?
Okay, if I am not subscribed to that PLAN, what am I subscribed to??
Okay, now on my brochure that is referenced in the Service Summary and contract clause...has a big ORANGE rectangle with the Family Talk Plans. AND in that same rectangle is the statement "INCLUDED FEATURES" and under INCLUDED FEATURES is listed Nationwide Long Distance, Voice Mail, Call Forwarding, Call Waiting, 3 Way Calling, Caller ID, Detailed Billing, Text/Instant Messaging (10c per message) [AND YES the price of 10c is LISTED in the brochure], Picture/Video Messaging (25c per message) and Media Net Browsing (1c/KB).
So...using your logic, you would be fine if Cingular told you that next month they will start charging you $1.00 for every LD call, $0.50 for every voice mail deposit AND retrieval (regardless of from cell or landline), and $.xx for every call that is forwarded, and $0.xx for every call that is waiting, and $0.xx for every 3 way call, and $0.01 for every Caller ID displayed on the phone, and $5.00 for detailed billing....and so forth...
Would you still say these are not subscribed services and that you have to suck it up and pay these fees? I hope you understand.
Mobile Pro
Great - this discussion is now reduced to name calling. Come on folks - were are all adults here.
Any reasonable person SHOULD be able see both sides of any discussion.
Last edited by Joan; 01-06-2007 at 11:39 AM.
Being intelligent is not a felony, but most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor.~ Lazurus Long
I've got more phones than fingers
Looks like Verizon's coming to the party as well. T-Mobile, COME ON DOWN!!
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/0...sms-rate-hike/
Phone Collector
TXTWin
First , let me apologize, after re-reading my post, i do not want to resort to any name calling, I think we can, and should be more mature to have an adult like dicussion here
I think you are misunderstanding me, the right or wrong debate that I was stating was merely in regards to the understanding of the contract NOT whether it was right or wrong for Cingular to increase their fee. And I am not questioning your intelligience or education level, by no means.. I am just pointing out that you misunderstood the contract terms. I believe in a previous post, you had stated that "ITS IN THE CONTRACT" and something about they cant change the fees/prices" , I was again just pointing out that was not true.
I made it quite clear that Cingular "can" increase their fees, and the result is neither of us can debate that regardless of how you feel or whether or not you think its right. It has been stated already from the company (officially) that no customer can waive their ETF or end their contract with cingualr due to this ppu increase. Of course, I understand many can "interpret" the contract, but I think its clear and concise if you go by what is stated orginally, which is WHY Cingular can uphold that notion that it does not void your original contract. If anyone can prove otherwise "legally", i would interested t know.
As for the gentlemen here who stated a SUBSCRIPTION DOESNT HAVE A BASE MONTHLY COST, I dont know what term or dictionary you use, but a subscription to me clearly states a pre-agreement of intentions to pay or have already made payments for a set period of time. Your rate plan is a SUBSCRIPTION. PPU is not, and I believe you are putting the two together. A PPU is a fee that you are required to PAY because of your CONTRACT, that states if you use this service , you will be charged on a PAY PER USE basis assuming you dont have a pre-subscribed packaged plan.
A PPU is NOT A SUBSCRIPTION. A Late fee is not a subscription, neither is a regulatory tax, or a reactivation fee, these are fees imposed on you as a customer if you qualify, these fees can be adjusted accordingly.
Anyways, weve killed this topic long enough, and again I do understand what many of you are saying.
My opinion again is, OF COURSE no one as a consumer and even as a business wants to have to make changes to any fees and/or impose any costs to the company itself or customers that could put any risk on the business operations.. but for myself, for a consumer and as someone avidly involved in these type of operations. I DO UNDERSTAND that there at times there will be price changes/increases and within reason (in particular to this case only) I am willing to PAY because I value the products and services that I get back in return, and thats it. I believe thats the same question every other consumer is going to ask themselves.
Everything is matter of perspective, and I think we can all agree the significance and importance communications has in our daily lives not to mention the convenience, and the positives that MOBILE communications can offer us.
In the future, I do believe Cingular/AT&T Mobile should revise the contracts to be more clear and concise in regards to these type of issues to avoid any misinterpreation and/or understandings.
Very off topic, just to give you a different light.. Speaking to some of my own customers in the younger age , 20-25, I do understand that financially this is more an effect on those , vs the older age group, but to put it in their perspective. the money they spend on parties, alcohol and wuteva else these kids do now adays.. $.05 extra or even an extra 10 - 20 bucks a month for other plans or services, doesnt seem to bad. Its just a matter of priorities and what you feel is justified to pay for. A young customer of mines barked at how expensive his bill was (roughly around 100+) but takes me and spends twice that amount on just reserving a table with a bottle of wine? For him its worth it, but for many others .. Im not too sure, just a different perspecitive.
Take care everyone, Happy new year.
Phone Collector
Theres one thing I cant stand, is the notion that CUSTOMERS are always right.
You ask anyone in the retail/sales business , not just wireless per say. .and this attitude has got to stop.
Companies can be wrong, and so can customers. Thats the REALITY and the TRUTH of the world we live in, not the notion that just because you pay, you think you own the right to do anything you want. and that goes of course to companies who think just because a customer already paid, that you do not have to value them
In the end, it goes both ways. A successful company always respects and values all customers and so should customers who can respect and value what they get in return, whether its a product or a service. Its not a coincedence, that a customer who can speak to a cs rep in a mature and respectful manner is more favorable to be assisted with their issue, same as a sales rep who is courteous and helpful is more likely to make the sale .
And regarding other posts about COMPANIES wanting to make money? Lets be frank and real with each other, we are all in the business to make money. No one here works for free. And I would like to think that because we all individuall work hard for our own money, that in the end we justify our purchases and spending habits because of that own reason. It would be unreasonable to work so hard, to spend on a product that doesnt give you back the same value.
I respect both large , mid, small , and mom/pop shops. But within realistic limits, I understand why small companies can compete on certain things vs larger companies. This is the world we live in, dont make a mistake thinking one is more or less important to each other.
Lastly, Monolopy ?? There hasnt been one since, you are free to purchase any service/product available on the market, last I checked, the days of any monolopy are long gone. The top 3 carries in the market are within 2-5 million customers apart from each other, I dont see anything having double or triple the size.
Last edited by CingularZ; 01-07-2007 at 04:28 PM.
Phone Collector
You're in the twilight zone if you think AT&T is NOT a monopoly. *hint* *hint* They've been caught before!!
We all know that companies who grow in size tend to treat their customers worse. Cingular knows it's at the end of its ropes, and is being swallowed by ATT, therefore, they can justify the rude, disrespectful, and robotic tone of its Customer Service Reps. Customers are NOT always right, but we should at least be treated respectfully. When my contract, service agreement, rates, or whatever are changed on me, and Cingular has ITS OWN rules about that, WE THE SUBSCRIBERS SHOULD NOT BE TREATED LIKE SLAVES TO A CROOKED CONTRACT.
I am always respectful with CS, but that gets you nowhere. The REALITY and TRUTH is that corporations will screw you any way they can, nickel here, dime there, and no class action rights for you!
You are defending a deplorable company, which has a long history of horrible customer service. Now that they are finally comming to an end, Cingular is kicking the screw-over factor into overdrive.
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