Fair enough, but shouldnt the consumer be notified, at worst, a week prior to them removing this feature? I think it would fix headaches all the way around.
1000th Post on March 27th, 2007 @ 11:09PM.
2000th Post on July 30th, 2007 @ 9:05PM.
3000th Post on Sept. 17th 2009 @ 8:20AM.
What you can do, should do, and are required to do in some areas of the AT&T mobility world can be fuzzy at best. That said, you need to be informed and act accordingly. First read AT&T Mobility's DATA TOS, Keep in mind if there is an conflict, the TOS rules. AT&T's data TOS states that medianet data plans are not for 'PDA' devices. PDA devices are defined as a handheld wireless device with an embeded QWETY keyboard. So if you go by the rules, you need a PDA Data plan. Now, Cingular's main billing system Telegence, will allow the addition of medianet to a wireless device with an embeded keyboard (PDA), without an error. - so as you were told the system will 'allow it'. Now, edits are in the works to fix Telegence, and servcie audits are done to find plan-phone 'errors'. Also AT&T Mobility CS reps are told not to offer or add medianet on a PDA device and if they do and that call is QA'd they can recive a '0' score - something as a rep you don't want to happen. Per the company's TOS's, they can correct a 'incompatible' feature or remove the feature if an audit shows the customer was setup incorrectly.
Actually, the terms and conditions here: http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-pho...plan-terms.jsp
And here: http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/me...al-notices.jsp
These are the TOC that is linked from the media bundles pages.
Does not forbid use of Media Max on a PDA. While I fully agree that it's AT&T's policy that media max is not availble for a PDA (I'm not at all challenging this,) I have yet to see any legal terms and conditions that explicity forbid it.
The only thing I found was here: http://www.wireless.att.com/source/m...ularmusic.aspx
And it says "Compatible phone required; MEdia bundles are not available on PDAs, RIM devices and PC Card modems." But this is a very arbitrary place and not even part of the legal TOC.
If I've missed something, please point it out to me. (thanks.)
Fair enough, but shouldnt the consumer be notified, at worst, a week prior to them removing this feature? I think it would fix headaches all the way around.
I can't speak for AT&T, but I would imagine the corp. thought would be something like 'why should we notifly the customer?, We've already stated in our TOS what actions we may take and therefore we have no further oblication to provide notification' Keep in mind, the sub is on an invalid feature,and should never had been placed on the feature. In AT&T's eye, all they are doing is correcting a TOS violation caused by a provisioning error.
Actually, the terms and conditions here: http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-pho...plan-terms.jsp
And here: http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/me...al-notices.jsp
These are the TOC that is linked from the media bundles pages.
Does not forbid use of Media Max on a PDA. While I fully agree that it's AT&T's policy that media max is not availble for a PDA (I'm not at all challenging this,) I have yet to see any legal terms and conditions that explicity forbid it.
The only thing I found was here: http://www.wireless.att.com/source/m...ularmusic.aspx
And it says "Compatible phone required; MEdia bundles are not available on PDAs, RIM devices and PC Card modems." But this is a very arbitrary place and not even part of the legal TOC.
If I've missed something, please point it out to me. (thanks.)
"....Prohibited and Permissible Uses: Data Service sessions may be conducted only for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) corporate intranet access (including access to corporate email, customer relationship management, sales force automation, and field service automation applications). Prohibited uses include, but are not limited to, using Services: (i) with server devices or with host computer applications, including, without limitation, Web camera posts or broadcasts, continuous jpeg file transfers, automatic data feeds, telemetry applications, PEER-TO-PEER (P2P) FILE SHARING, automated functions or any other machine-to-machine applications; (ii) as substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections; (iii) for Voice over IP; (iv) in conjunction with WWAN or other applications or devices which aggregate usage from multiple sources prior to transmission; (v) Using the Services for any activity that adversely affects the ability of other people or systems to use either the Services or other parties' Internet-based resources including, but not limited to excessive consumption of network or system resources (whether intentional or unintentional) and "denial of service" (DoS) attacks against another network host or individual user; or (vi) Interference with or disruption of other network users, network services or network equipment. except for CONTENT formatted in accordance with AT&T’S WIRELESS CONTENT standards, Unlimited plans cannot be used for uploading, downloading or streaming of video content (e.g. movies, TV), music or games. Furthermore, unlimited plans (except for DataConnect and Blackberry Tethered) cannot be used for any applications that tether the device (through use of, including without limitation, connection kits, other phone/PDA-to-computer accessories, Bluetooth® or any other wireless technology) to laptops, PCs, or other equipment for any purpose. Service is not intended to provide full-time connections, and the Service may be discontinued after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage. AT&T reserves the right to (i) limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny Service and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network and (ii) protect its wireless network from harm, which may impact legitimate data flows. You may not send solicitations to AT&T’s wireless subscribers without their consent. You may not use the Services other than as intended by AT&T and applicable law. Plans are for individual, non-commercial use only and are not for resale. ...."
I can't speak for AT&T, but I would imagine the corp. thought would be something like 'why should we notifly the customer?, We've already stated in our TOS what actions we may take and therefore we have no further oblication to provide notification' Keep in mind, the sub is on an invalid feature,and should never had been placed on the feature. In AT&T's eye, all they are doing is correcting a TOS violation caused by a provisioning error.
LOL, reminds me of the line in office space:
"Oh, just a second there professor, we ah, we fixed the glitch. So he won't be receiving a pay check anymore so it will just work itself out naturally. We always like to avoid confrontation when ever possible."
That's exactly what I was referring to.
Please point out the sentence or sentences that mention a PDA, or QWERTY device and use with Media Max, Media net, or media bundles anywhere in there.
It's simply NOT in that text. That TOC talks about all of the things you can and can't do on ANY data plan on AT&T, but says nothing to forbid the use of media net/max/bundles on a PDA.
People say over and over that it's in there, but it's not.
For that matter it's nowhere on the AT&T web site except hidden in the text of that cingular music page I linked above.
That's exactly what I was referring to.
Please point out the sentence or sentences that mention a PDA, or QWERTY device and use with Media Max, Media net, or media bundles anywhere in there.
It's simply NOT in that text. That TOC talks about all of the things you can and can't do on ANY data plan on AT&T, but says nothing to forbid the use of media net/max/bundles on a PDA.
People say over and over that it's in there, but it's not.
For that matter it's nowhere on the AT&T web site except hidden in the text of that cingular music page I linked above.
It's there - what do you think 'compatible devices' mean ? also under 'other terms and conditions' it states what you previously stated related to medianet and PDA plans, the TOS also states that AT&T can make changes at anytime and without notification. Additionally resources for AT&T employees are found on device pages and provisioning infomation on AT&T's internal websites such as CSP. Companies don't put specifics in a TOS as the TOS is ment to be an overview, you as a subscriber should then inquire with AT&Tfor additional information.
If they are on internal documents, then legally, they aren't worth the paper they are written on.
You are missing the point, AT&T owns the network, you are only using the network as thier paying quest, they make the rules you have to abide by them. If you, as a guest are not polite then you will be told to leave and escorted to the door. It is the same way with every company. Every website has 'acceptable use policies' every company you work for has 'attendance,conduct,pay, and quality ploices you must accept and agree to prior to employment. If you have ever had major surgery, you have to sign pages of paperwork saying you understand this and that, and agree that your were told you could die on the table, ect. All of these are basic Terms of service statements, companies don't have to spell it out for you if they did these statements would take books, it is up to you as a consumer to read and ask questions. For example AT&T makes at least THREE references in its many TOS's. (1) you have to a compatible device, (2) only unlimited data plans are to be used to tether and (3) medianet plans are not for PDA devices. If you call AT&T Mobility and ask them they will tell you the company defines a PDA device as any handheld device with an embeded QWETY keypad. So, it doesn't take a friggin genius to put the pieces together. So do your research, read, and use the brain God gave you - not everyhing is going to be written out for you nor does it have to be.
The problem is, I was told this by two different AT&T employees. Because of this knowledge, I signed the new contract. If the information given to me is not correct, it doesn't matter what the TOS or anything else any company says - the contract becomes voidable.
As you said, the TOS is intentionally vague. I was given a point blank answer, and that takes precedence in terms of calculating whether or not I could void the contract.
I wonder what the lawyers would say when (and it will one day, I assure you) it gets pointed out that their 'PDAs' run a Smartphone version of Windows?
You are missing the point, AT&T owns the network, you are only using the network as thier paying quest, they make the rules you have to abide by them. If you, as a guest are not polite then you will be told to leave and escorted to the door. It is the same way with every company. Every website has 'acceptable use policies' every company you work for has 'attendance,conduct,pay, and quality ploices you must accept and agree to prior to employment. If you have ever had major surgery, you have to sign pages of paperwork saying you understand this and that, and agree that your were told you could die on the table, ect. All of these are basic Terms of service statements, companies don't have to spell it out for you if they did these statements would take books, it is up to you as a consumer to read and ask questions. For example AT&T makes at least THREE references in its many TOS's. (1) you have to a compatible device, (2) only unlimited data plans are to be used to tether and (3) medianet plans are not for PDA devices. If you call AT&T Mobility and ask them they will tell you the company defines a PDA device as any handheld device with an embeded QWETY keypad. So, it doesn't take a friggin genius to put the pieces together. So do your research, read, and use the brain God gave you - not everyhing is going to be written out for you nor does it have to be.
No matter how you say it, or what you say about the TOS, this is probably the most misunderstood issue with AT&T. If a rep, who is supposedly trained in the policies of the company they work for, puts medianet on a pda phone and tells me its ok to use it, and AT&T decides at some point to remove it without my knowledge and I get an astronomical bill, it will in no way stand up. I guarantee it. If its wrong and not allowable, the idiot reps shouldnt be putting it on a persons account. End of story.
The problem is, I was told this by two different AT&T employees. Because of this knowledge, I signed the new contract. If the information given to me is not correct, it doesn't matter what the TOS or anything else any company says - the contract becomes voidable.
As you said, the TOS is intentionally vague. I was given a point blank answer, and that takes precedence in terms of calculating whether or not I could void the contract.
I wonder what the lawyers would say when (and it will one day, I assure you) it gets pointed out that their 'PDAs' run a Smartphone version of Windows?
And that is exactly why you have to be an educated consumer. No mater what company you do business with, you have the potential to get wrong answers. humans make errors, plan and simple, but unfortunately you will be held responsible for thier errors. Look at the fine prnt on 'pre-approved' applications, or even ABC's 'national' bingo , you see that pre-approved doesn't mean necessarly what you assume it would and ABC's national bingo is pre-determined. I hear it all day long 'I was told by employee XXX that I didn't have to YYY'.
I know from experience as I used to write T and C's, and handle escalations and contract resolutions in a previous job. Use your head, don't always take what ur told at face value, get it documentaed, in writing and on your account, and read every piece of fine print and terms and conditions you can find, ask for names and employee numbers and locations. and did I say get it in writing on company leterhead with a signature and date ?
And that is exactly why you have to be an educated consumer. No mater what company you do business with, you have the potential to get wrong answers. humans make errors, plan and simple, but unfortunately you will be held responsible for thier errors. Look at the fine prnt on 'pre-approved' applications, or even ABC's 'national' bingo , you see that pre-approved doesn't mean necessarly what you assume it would and ABC's national bingo is pre-determined. I hear it all day long 'I was told by employee XXX that I didn't have to YYY'.
I know from experience as I used to write T and C's, and handle escalations and contract resolutions in a previous job. Use your head, don't always take what ur told at face value, get it documentaed, in writing and on your account, and read every piece of fine print and terms and conditions you can find, ask for names and employee numbers and locations. and did I say get it in writing on company leterhead with a signature and date ?
Dude, if we are supposed to know MORE than the people who work for the company, then we may as well work for said company and they should go work elsewhere
No matter how you say it, or what you say about the TOS, this is probably the most misunderstood issue with AT&T. If a rep, who is supposedly trained in the policies of the company they work for, puts medianet on a pda phone and tells me its ok to use it, and AT&T decides at some point to remove it without my knowledge and I get an astronomical bill, it will in no way stand up. I guarantee it. If its wrong and not allowable, the idiot reps shouldnt be putting it on a persons account. End of story.
Bingo. It's not that it's not allowable, it's that it doesn't make them enough money.
I did my homework, that's why I asked very specific questions and printed out my answers. If they want to tell me I have to pay $40 a month, that contract is history. I'm pretty sure they don't want to do that. $120/mo>$0/mo.
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Originally Posted by jhardin1
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