Verizon's open door policy all hype, no change?

[WaltA]

I mean, surely VZW techs can flash their own phones, right? If they can flash a VZW Centro or V9m why couldn't they flash a Sprint or USCC one?

One reason... if they brick the phone, what do they then do? Just one example, if they bricked my AMP'D V3m in Fire Red, could VZW replace it with another V3m in Fire Red? Nope.

[johncase3]

The ostensible reason CDMA carriers claim they need to limit access by MEID is to protect their networks from rogue/incompatible devices. This is obviously nonsense, given that they all allow non-subs to roam on their networks, subject only to the PRL system.

Also consider, as I mentioned in an earlier post, practically any ESN (Sprint, Alltel, etc.) can be activated on Page Plus which is a Verizon MVNO. Moreover, Verizon provides the activation interface for Page Plus to use, so you can't say it's not under Verizon's control.

A few months back, people were staring to activate PDA's on InPulse. When word got out, Verizon quickly blocked activation of PDA ESN's on InPulse. Nothing to do with incompatibility, just greed.

[CharlesH]

When my phone makes a roaming connection request on Alltel's network, do you think Alltel communicates with Sprint to get my ESN/MEID before allowing the connection to be completed?

Well, actually it does, to authorize the call. Alltel wants to get paid for the call. Additionally, the CDMA protocol encrypts one direction of the call with the phone's ESN, so the cell site you are talking to has to know the ESN.

But I agree that the whole business of rogue phones is bogus. If a phone model is FCC certified, that should be sufficient to believe that it will operate properly with the network.

[wnrussell]

Question Reference #080920-005699
Subject: How can I activate an Alltel branded V9m onto the Verizon network?...
Product: Cell Phones
Previous Models
V-Series
Service Provider: Verizon
MSN Number:
Submitted: 09/19/2008 06:34 PM
Last Updated: 09/19/2008 06:34 PM
Status: Unresolved

Here is my "Official" response from Motorola:
Response (Federico G) 09/24/2008 02:46 PM
Dear William,

Thank you for contacting Motorola e-mail support, we appreciate your interest in our products.

Regarding your concern, please note that your Altell V9m phone will be compatible only with Altell as service provider. You must purchase a Verizon branded phone to activate onto the Verizon network. We are sorry for the inconvenience this may cause you.

We hope that you find this information useful and look forward to assisting you in the future.

For information about Motorola products and services, please visit us at http://www.hellomoto.com/

Thank you for contacting Motorola e-mail support.

Best Regards,

[WaltA]

If a phone model is FCC certified, that should be sufficient to believe that it will operate properly with the network.

Unfortunately, that is not completely true. Beyond simply voice, there can be a lot of variation between the carriers. And when there is a variation that would cause a customer a problem, exactly who will be responsible, you?

[Vatothe0]

Exactly. The E816 was FCC approved but caused problems. The Kyocrea 7035 had major problems as well.

Best example though is the RAZR. When it was first released it had a software error that left EVDO sessions open for HOURS and since America's Choice billed for that, people had overage charges in the thousands. Since VZW certified that software, they took responsibility and gave people credit for the airtime charges.

If the phone was brought in through some other means, the customer is on the hook for all the charges.

I knew someone at AllTel that activated non AllTel phones for people but the disclaimer was that if you have any billing issues related to the hardware, tough.

[wnrussell]

Unfortunately, that is not completely true. Beyond simply voice, there can be a lot of variation between the carriers.

What variation in hardware would there be between an Alltel and Verizon V9m? I thought it was just firmware.

What is so special about Verizon hardware that Motorola is telling me in my last post that I need Verizon branding on the outside of my phone for it to be activated on their network?

[jjuiop]

Is it limited to just machines? Or will we be seing phone companies (like moto) coming out with phones (without VZW UI I hope). Cause I would love a non-smartphone non-vzw ui phone

[Moderator HF 6]

Threads merged.

[huntm856]

One reason... if they brick the phone, what do they then do? Just one example, if they bricked my AMP'D V3m in Fire Red, could VZW replace it with another V3m in Fire Red? Nope.

If you're getting your phone flashed from AMP'd firmware to VZW firmware, you'd have to be willing to accept a stock VZW replacement if something goes wrong. That would have to be understood beforehand.

(Question: anyone know what PagePlus does in cases like this?)

That's *if* the carrier wants to be responsible for reflashing. There's no reason why the carriers couldn't allow the device manufacturers to handle reflashing if they wanted to, as they do now in some cases: e.g., my Sprint MotoQ9c had a new WinMo 6.1 upgrade ROM released. That ROM is actually served by Moto, not by Sprint.

So such issues could be avoided completely if carriers allowed the device mfgs. they partner with to handle things.

The PagePlus example is another good one. Reflashing ROMs is not rocket science.

Bottom line is this is something the carriers could do if they wanted to. They just don't want to.

[huntm856]

Well, actually it does, to authorize the call. Alltel wants to get paid for the call. Additionally, the CDMA protocol encrypts one direction of the call with the phone's ESN, so the cell site you are talking to has to know the ESN.

But I agree that the whole business of rogue phones is bogus. If a phone model is FCC certified, that should be sufficient to believe that it will operate properly with the network.

Well, I stand corrected. Obviously I suppose the roamed-on network needs to ID the phone so it can bill for the roaming services. My point was that they don't need to match this roaming phone's MEID/ESN to some list of approved phones to provide service for it.

[huntm856]

Best example though is the RAZR. When it was first released it had a software error that left EVDO sessions open for HOURS and since America's Choice billed for that, people had overage charges in the thousands. Since VZW certified that software, they took responsibility and gave people credit for the airtime charges.

If the phone was brought in through some other means, the customer is on the hook for all the charges.

I knew someone at AllTel that activated non AllTel phones for people but the disclaimer was that if you have any billing issues related to the hardware, tough.

This is a plausible argument for carriers not activating devices not running their particular firmware (though not a particularly good one in my view) but it doesn't address the re-flashing scenario at all.

[bryn987]

I see two sides to this:

1. If Verizon only cared about making money on their voice/data plans with 2 year contracts, they should be jumping for joy to show on their website "look now, we just certified HTC Touch Pro and the HTC Touch HD and you can use them on our network using our existing plans. Bring any of these phones into a local store and we'll get it up and running.

2. The reason why Verizon doesn't do this is several reasons:

• they see 90% of their market as normal moms and dads who wont go to the trouble of buying full price handsets and getting them turned on
• we are all sheep, we will gladly take just the phones Verizon sells
• they also don't want us using wi-fi as well

Android 2.0 on a HTC Touch HD on Verizon's network would totally rock

[davebuck]

I am in complete agreement with you. It is absurd that VRZ will not allow other CDMA phones to work on their network. Like you, I have the VX6900. It is a pain in the ***XX. There is no goodreason for the HTC touch pro, touch diamond or the HD NOT to work with VRZ. I for one don't care about the wi-fi. However, their choice of Smartphones and PDA phones is extremely limited and the only phones available are probably already discontinued in Europe because the technology is 5 years old!!

Our corporation switched from AT&T to VRZ. The quality of voice is better but the phone choices are really limited especially if one needs to use any type of PDA or Smartphone. At this point,I wished we had stayed with Cingular. There doesn't appear to be any reasonable reason for VRZ to be doing this. Furthermore, although multiple internet sites state that many of these phones will be VRZ compatible by Q3 2008, none have actually been converted yet.

[samab]

Considering the fact the US (population 301 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G handset penetration than UK+Germany+France+Italy+Spain (305 million population) --- the argument about Americans having old technology no longer applies.