Cumulative Review: Nokia N96

[THETRUTH#34]

Good hardware like the N95 opens the door to nicely made fast running 3D mapping applications and the like. Taking a step back like this simply disgusts me. They call this the flagship? I'll show you flagship, it's in my pocket right now.

My n85 opens my map application much fater than the n95-4, i havent seen any difference in the 2 in terms of the n95-4 having the 3d chip and the n85 not having it. HERE is a video of the 2 in terms of ui speed.

[sr1329]

My n85 opens my map application much fater than the n95-4, i havent seen any difference in the 2 in terms of the n95-4 having the 3d chip and the n85 not having it. HERE is a video of the 2 in terms of ui speed.

So does the N78 and it opens it much faster just like in your video. But that's one of the things FP2 does better. The other thing is that it should much faster is running in-device search. The N78 is far, far better in that also. I think it has something to do with the hardware also, in that full USB 2.0 speeds are supported to the memory card now. However in regular UI interaction the differences become small. I know the N78 has a snappy UI, but over time it seemed to become the same as the N95. The Maps loading and in device search are always much faster. Night and day faster in the case of search. You have to remember I've been playing with FP2 for months now and I've posted about these differences but never a video.

[THETRUTH#34]

So does the N78 and it opens it much faster just like in your video. But that's one of the things FP2 does better. The other thing is that it should much faster is running in-device search. The N78 is far, far better in that also. I think it has something to do with the hardware also, in that full USB 2.0 speeds are supported to the memory card now. However in regular UI interaction the differences become small. I know the N78 has a snappy UI, but over time it seemed to become the same as the N95. The Maps loading and in device search are always much faster. Night and day faster in the case of search. You have to remember I've been playing with FP2 for months now and I've posted about these differences but never a video.

Ok well im a little confused,with the overall benchmarks when i personally see no difference, can you explain what the heck is the difference.

P.S. ROGER THE VIDEO WAS MADE FOR YOU.

[RogerPodacter]

thanks but when i clicked the video it said the video was not there.

[THETRUTH#34]

thanks but when i clicked the video it said the video was not there.

Try it now Roger it just worked for me

[mib1800]

Android as a platform and the G1 are totally 2 different things. The G1 is a horrible phone but the platform is has some serious weight behind it. All I know is that whatever comes of it will be a pain in Nokia's side hence Symbian Foundation. By the time they finish that there will be devices and apps galore for Android.

How many top manufacturers (other than semi-dead Moto) have confirmed concretely that they will use Android in their devices? I dont think HTC or some chinese phone manufacturers are big enough to make an impact for Android. Unless some hyped-up company like Apple is behind Android, I think it is quite difficult for this platform to chase Symbian/Iphone/RIM.

No need to go out to some website and upload a file to get it back by e-mail to install it. Nobody wants to deal with that crap.

You are assuming that Nokia will sit on its butts and not respond to this AppStore factor. This assumption is as ridiculous as saying that Nokia will not make a touchscreen device. S60 AppStore would not be difficult to implement as part of the OVI framework (well there is already a music store). It may even takes on the form of a "Comes With Apps" which should give AppStore a big kick in the behind like "Comes With Music" is gonna give Itunes many scary nights ahead.

[gwapz]

How many top manufacturers (other than semi-dead Moto) have confirmed concretely that they will use Android in their devices? I dont think HTC or some chinese phone manufacturers are big enough to make an impact for Android. Unless some hyped-up company like Apple is behind Android, I think it is quite difficult for this platform to chase Symbian/Iphone/RIM.

I heard SE will take a shot of the Android on their next X-Series Smartphones.

Don't know if SE is big enough to compete.. We shall see..

[gwapz]

You are assuming that Nokia will sit on its butts and not respond to this AppStore factor. This assumption is as ridiculous as saying that Nokia will not make a touchscreen device. S60 AppStore would not be difficult to implement as part of the OVI framework (well there is already a music store). It may even takes on the form of a "Comes With Apps" which should give AppStore a big kick in the behind like "Comes With Music" is gonna give Itunes many scary nights ahead.

SR1329 is underestimating Nokia's capabilities due to his N78 flaws..

[sr1329]

Ok well im a little confused,with the overall benchmarks when i personally see no difference, can you explain what the heck is the difference.

P.S. ROGER THE VIDEO WAS MADE FOR YOU.

Software optimization. The version of Maps is different for FP2. When you go to the download site it asks you your phone. That + optimization in FP2 for certain situations gives you that. It has nothing to do with the processor or benchmarks (obviously), I posted about that when I got my N78 but most people didn't seem to notice.

Anyway, over time I realized that it really only applies to Maps and Search. I can't remember anything else that loaded faster. Scratch that, there is one other thing that loads really fast. If you have a large music library, the music player loads the library much faster than the N95 and subsequent loads are instant.

I feel a lot of this is due to actual USB 2.0 speeds from the memory card. If you recall the N95 was limited to USB 1.1 speeds to the memory due to an internal bus issue that also affected how fast the actual phone system can read from the card as well, it wasn't only a transfer issue but an internal issue. Now that the phone can both read faster from the card for transfer and for the system it seems to me that applications installed to the memory card load much faster, in device search (which must search the memory card for results) is much faster, the music player refreshes faster.

Here's one more thing you'll like. If you change your SMS and E-mail storage to the memory card it will happen with no performance hit. On the N95 it will slow down badly.

I'm not saying there aren't improvements with FP2 or the newer devices, on the contrary that's the source of my anger. I really liked my N78 a a lot. I saw these differences and I thought it was a more practical phone than my N95 even, but the proxy issue was a deal breaker to me personally. I sat in school trying to pull up a report that needs to be accessed via proxy and I looked like an idiot since I was expected to provide some information from it to my director. I had no idea that was broken until that day.

The other thing was browser crashes that led to phone freeze ups that required battery removal reset. It would happen several times a day on some days with medium to heavy browser usage (let's call it N95 usage). I wasn't used to having to remove the battery coming from the N95. I don't mind it once or twice a month maybe, but several times a day? I'm not trying to be unreasonable about this at all.

The other thing was random slowdowns in data speed. Random unresponsiveness in fetching data from 3G and a quirk here and there. It is fine if it happens once in a while, but it happened pretty often on that phone.

If FP2 is not giving you problems on the N85, well then consider yourself lucky because I guess I was the beta tester on it and whether it is FP2 or the internal USB speed or a combination of both you are very lucky.

I guess I'm going to just get the N78 repaired (the right speaker broke) and take the huge hit on it and move on. It's a really pity because if the FW was fixed I would love that phone. Maybe I should consider an N85 but the N78 taught me a lesson. Where I was an ardent Nokia supporter and I would pick up phones without thinking this bitter taste has taught me to sit still and wait to put my money towards something that's really worth it. I refuse to fund Nokia for every little new feature as I did in the past. We all do it, buying a new phone for a new screen, or a 3.5mm jack, or USB charging. From now on I will not participate in helping Nokia milk us with this strategy of trickling new features in to phones and holding back things like Xenon flash.

They only do it because they know some of us will go and buy 2 phones for little stuff like that or upgrade 5 times a year for little improvements like that. Firstly I thought with the release of the N95 they were moving away from such a petty strategy and secondly if the new development cycle is 2 years for N-series flagships they had better not be trickling stuff in anymore. This game of keeping E-series customizations from N-series users and 3.5mm jacks from E-series users is getting old. Make a damn super phone that transcends this E-series/N-series nonsense and price it at $1000+ people will buy it. Asking them to put Xenon in it is like asking at Burger King to put cheese on your Whopper, it's that simple and yet they make such a big deal of it. I refuse to be a part of letting Nokia treat its customers like that anymore. Its just not the way business is done anymore and the new smartphone landscape will not let them get away with it and I'll do my part by buying a competing product if I have to.

[sr1329]

How many top manufacturers (other than semi-dead Moto) have confirmed concretely that they will use Android in their devices? I dont think HTC or some chinese phone manufacturers are big enough to make an impact for Android. Unless some hyped-up company like Apple is behind Android, I think it is quite difficult for this platform to chase Symbian/Iphone/RIM.




You are assuming that Nokia will sit on its butts and not respond to this AppStore factor. This assumption is as ridiculous as saying that Nokia will not make a touchscreen device. S60 AppStore would not be difficult to implement as part of the OVI framework (well there is already a music store). It may even takes on the form of a "Comes With Apps" which should give AppStore a big kick in the behind like "Comes With Music" is gonna give Itunes many scary nights ahead.

Yeah where is the response then? Or is Ipmart still the "app store"?

Having heard all this OVI talk for over a year now, the site is still unfinished and there is no app store worth a damn. Besides I don't want a web accessed app store, I want apps accessible on my device. Wasn't the great thing about S60 that you didn't need a computer to install apps?

You can keep saying its not difficult to implement then where is it? Nobody said Nokia would not make a touchscreen device because anyone who's actually been following Nokia for a while knows about the 7710. It was inevitable, but the timing is terrible.

You make me laugh by saying anything can give iTunes a single scary night. For better or worse (I don't buy DRM garbage or pay my hard earned money for music than is less than CD quality) iTunes is the number 2 music retailer in the US: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16881/1151/

You might pooh pooh that because you might be a tech fanboy of sorts but the truth is that a success story like that matters to people involved in business. Sure Nokia tech is good, better than Apple but Apple in business has shown up several industries. They came in with the iPod and showed Sony how to sell a music player, they then proceeding to restructure the music business and is the only company to stand up to RIAA fat cats. If Apple didn't fight so hard for flat $0.99 downloads "comes with music" would not be even be possible. It taught the RIAA to look at alternative ways to make money seriously. Then now whether you'll admit it as a tech fanboy, they've reshaped the mobile phone industry. They were the first to make a phone that a greedy phone carrier wanted so badly that they even gave up a percentage of their revenue on service. That's like going to the CEO of AT&T and asking if its okay to take this 8 gauge needle and suck a portion of his blood out every now and then so that he can sell this phone and he agreed. Sure Apple tech is hyped up but their business is solid. They make computers only in name, but they really are a consumer electronics business.

Understand that with "comes with music" you have to basically pay $150-200 more for your phone up front to get access to music. It is no free lunch, and if they throw that in for free it's a very expensive way to buy into the music business. It doesn't really help that despite being the number 1 DAP make in the world for years now (yes they sell more mp3 phones than anyone else makes DAPs including Apple) they just now thought about doing the music store thing. As an incidental fact Nokia is also the number 1 digital camera manufacturer in the world due to the sheer number of camera phones they make, however they are so slow to implement ways to capitalize on those strengths. They had a tie up with Flickr years ago even when the N90 came out, but they bought Twango and if anything they stymied the progress that company may have made otherwise leaving us with unfinished OVI. They paid $8 billion for Navteq last year and still have not integrated a decent POI database into their Maps application? All I'm saying is that some companies are very nimble and hence they seem to succeed in any market they enter and others are slow as heck but they do well in the absence of real competition. Nokia was fine in their slow as a turtle OVI/services initiative implementation until they suffered from a much more nimble participant in the field. Still Nokia has the market share advantage by a factor of 2, so they have a nice buffer, but that's no excuse for being the slow poke. It's not even like they take their time and when its done its bug free. It comes late and with bugs and issues.

Even a lay man can see the mobile phone/smart phone landscape has totally changed recently and while tech people can't see that, the suits do. Hence Nokia REACTING with Ovi and S60v5. Left to their own devices that stuff probably wasn't scheduled until 2010 or 2011. So now Nokia will come out with rushed services that will be in beta or a non finished state for months or even years. Just like OVI today.

[sr1329]

SR1329 is underestimating Nokia's capabilities due to his N78 flaws..

If you're not retarded maybe post something that has an actual point instead being the house Nokia cheerleader. RAH! RAH! Nokia lost 12% market share we're still NO1!

The N78 was a wake up call to the reality that is Nokia today. Not a single innovative product 2 years after the N95, no support for US customers, FW fixes may or may not come, every Nokia initiative is a reaction to outside market forces, every product and service they sell is a beta for months or years after its release. A 2 year development cycle in mobile phones is just about as retarded as the people that cheer for that nonsense. Imagine if Intel had the sort of development schedule of Nokia? We'd be using those ****** P4s still.

If you have actual rebuttals to this current Nokia ineptitude I'd like to hear it. Or you can continue to be the dumb cheerleader and make stupid posts without a real point in sight.

[THETRUTH#34]

I guess I'm going to just get the N78 repaired (the right speaker broke) and take the huge hit on it and move on. It's a really pity because if the FW was fixed I would love that phone. Maybe I should consider an N85 but the N78 taught me a lesson. Where I was an ardent Nokia supporter and I would pick up phones without thinking this bitter taste has taught me to sit still and wait to put my money towards something that's really worth it. I refuse to fund Nokia for every little new feature as I did in the past. We all do it, buying a new phone for a new screen, or a 3.5mm jack, or USB charging. From now on I will not participate in helping Nokia milk us with this strategy of trickling new features in to phones and holding back things like Xenon flash.

They only do it because they know some of us will go and buy 2 phones for little stuff like that or upgrade 5 times a year for little improvements like that. Firstly I thought with the release of the N95 they were moving away from such a petty strategy and secondly if the new development cycle is 2 years for N-series flagships they had better not be trickling stuff in anymore. This game of keeping E-series customizations from N-series users and 3.5mm jacks from E-series users is getting old. Make a damn super phone that transcends this E-series/N-series nonsense and price it at $1000+ people will buy it. Asking them to put Xenon in it is like asking at Burger King to put cheese on your Whopper, it's that simple and yet they make such a big deal of it. I refuse to be a part of letting Nokia treat its customers like that anymore. Its just not the way business is done anymore and the new smartphone landscape will not let them get away with it and I'll do my part by buying a competing product if I have to.

I hear ya and its not a good feeling, i have not had any crashes on my n85, as a matter of fact the device has been very stable, aside from my bluetooth issue that i have mentioned before. To answer the comment of funding nokia on simple upgrades, i feel the same , but when i venture out it seems to be the M.O. with all other companies, take the fuze that has been released or the bold, or the iphone 3g what are the significant changes in those devices from the curve or the iphone 2g or the touch diamond or touch pro or tytnII i mean they are all little upgrades with some software changes, at least with the nokias you are still dealing 5mp cameras gps always and a load of other things that seem to become standard on a nseries device. Im not trying to sell nokia on you u have been with them for a while, im just saying its unfortunate that this has happened to you and if it happened to me i wouldnt be happy, but its no different on the other side, jonny bruha made the post recently about s60 and the carriers bringing out devices that are matching features well i still disagree, the storm will be releasd by verizon and they remove wifi, the fuze by at&t is loaded with its bloat ware and i already hear people crying about its slowness, all new smartphones require at least $30 data plans where is the real savings when we add it up. The htc's and the bb's and the apple's of the world all do the same thing, we complain because we have it done personally to us because we are using nokia, if we were using htc we can say the same , or apple, or any other company out there.

[mib1800]

Yeah where is the response then? Or is Ipmart still the "app store"?

Having heard all this OVI talk for over a year now, the site is still unfinished and there is no app store worth a damn. Besides I don't want a web accessed app store, I want apps accessible on my device. Wasn't the great thing about S60 that you didn't need a computer to install apps?

Dont forget the fact a lot of people may not want to pay $30 flat rate data per month. You are thinking of Iphone model which btw has a very high total ownership cost.

You can keep saying its not difficult to implement then where is it? Nobody said Nokia would not make a touchscreen device because anyone who's actually been following Nokia for a while knows about the 7710. It was inevitable, but the timing is terrible.

Well, we know the S60 Touch was Nokia's response to the competitions. If AppStore is gonna make a big impact on S60 sales, I would think Nokia would response. That's my assumption. Nokia is very active in software development (with their betalabs, bundled software) much more so that any other including Apple. Why do you think it is ridiculous to say Nokia have the capability to response?

You make me laugh by saying anything can give iTunes a single scary night. For better or worse (I don't buy DRM garbage or pay my hard earned money for music than is less than CD quality) iTunes is the number 2 music retailer in the US: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16881/1151/

You might pooh pooh that because you might be a tech fanboy of sorts but the truth is that a success story like that matters to people involved in business. Sure Nokia tech is good, better than Apple but Apple in business has shown up several industries. They came in with the iPod and showed Sony how to sell a music player, they then proceeding to restructure the music business and is the only company to stand up to RIAA fat cats. If Apple didn't fight so hard for flat $0.99 downloads "comes with music" would not be even be possible. It taught the RIAA to look at alternative ways to make money seriously. Then now whether you'll admit it as a tech fanboy, they've reshaped the mobile phone industry. They were the first to make a phone that a greedy phone carrier wanted so badly that they even gave up a percentage of their revenue on service. That's like going to the CEO of AT&T and asking if its okay to take this 8 gauge needle and suck a portion of his blood out every now and then so that he can sell this phone and he agreed. Sure Apple tech is hyped up but their business is solid. They make computers only in name, but they really are a consumer electronics business.

I think many Americans were once very confident that Moto would become the biggest phone maker. My point is, it is the future that matters. OVI may be slow as it is a big endeavour. Look at it this way. Is there something like the one-stop integrated services that OVI provides on any phone platform? I think not.

Understand that with "comes with music" you have to basically pay $150-200 more for your phone up front to get access to music. It is no free lunch, and if they throw that in for free it's a very expensive way to buy into the music business. It doesn't really help that despite being the number 1 DAP make in the world for years now (yes they sell more mp3 phones than anyone else makes DAPs including Apple) they just now thought about doing the music store thing.

From prices in UK, I dont see people paying $150-200 more for bundled CWM. . It is more like $30-50. On contract prices there is no difference at all. I think many would not mind paying an extra $30-50 more to download many gigabytes of song. If Apple offer this scheme for Iphone then it will be surely be in trouble. From the Q3 data it seems that ipod sales is down a lot (most likely people who are intending to buy ipod already bought iphone). So I doubt Apple can offer such scheme.

Yes. Apple may be the pioneer in offering cheap music. But maybe like you say about Nokia being a dinosaur, maybe Apple Itunes is also a dinosaur in terms of music sales compared to CWM.

You know that CWM is being offered not just on N95-8G but also cheap S40 handsets like 5310. We are looking at potential of 150-200 million yearly of such phones capable of having CWM. I think music labels will salivate at this potential. Buyers dont see the extra cost as most of it will be subsumed under contract subsidy when they sign up for new contract.

We just have to see how it will turn out. I think it is too early to write off Nokia.

As an incidental fact Nokia is also the number 1 digital camera manufacturer in the world due to the sheer number of camera phones they make, however they are so slow to implement ways to capitalize on those strengths. They had a tie up with Flickr years ago even when the N90 came out, but they bought Twango and if anything they stymied the progress that company may have made otherwise leaving us with unfinished OVI. They paid $8 billion for Navteq last year and still have not integrated a decent POI database into their Maps application? All I'm saying is that some companies are very nimble and hence they seem to succeed in any market they enter and others are slow as heck but they do well in the absence of real competition. Nokia was fine in their slow as a turtle OVI/services initiative implementation until they suffered from a much more nimble participant in the field. Still Nokia has the market share advantage by a factor of 2, so they have a nice buffer, but that's no excuse for being the slow poke. It's not even like they take their time and when its done its bug free. It comes late and with bugs and issues.

I thought Apple is the one that dont have any competition in its biggest market.

Samsung/Nokia/LG have been running head to head in terms of phone in the global arena. The keyword is phone. Eventhough Nokia wanted to go big in the internet service, it is still a device manufacturer by and large which means pushing volume.

S60 still have the best integration for uploading photos/blog out of the box. If you dont like what is provided, there are many 3rd party ones around. I am not sure about Maps. I dont use Maps that much but I thought it has the option for add-on location-specific guides? I think it depends on where you are regarding POIs. You have to remember Nokia is dealing with the map of the whole world and not just specific cities.