WIND Mobile Tower Map

[bprintz]

Generally what happens is the provider (Wind in this example) first has to apply to Industry Canada for a license for Microwave Back-haul. Industry Canada does analysis on the request and insures it will not cause interference etc. Once this license has been approved they are allowed to operate at this location. The licenses for AWS/PCS/Cellular do NOT require approval from Industry Canada and it's up to the providers to submit these at more or less their own pace. As such we usually see back-haul licenses appearing first at location that often end up being new sites. Eventually if this is a true cell site we should see additional information appear for these locations for their cell antennas.

So if you aren't getting service in this area, then there's likely not an active tower at the area. It is somewhat promising that they do have a license for back-haul at this location, however this does not necessarily mean that Wind 100% will be deploying at this location immediately or ever for that matter, but for most cases they likely will. Hope that makes sense...

[computergeek541]

So if you aren't getting service in this area, then there's likely not an active tower at the area. It is somewhat promising that they do have a license for back-haul at this location, however this does not necessarily mean that Wind 100% will be deploying at this location immediately or ever for that matter, but for most cases they likely will. Hope that makes sense...

thanks

I believe that I've been seeing that 22 Southport Road entry for a good year now. There is service there; it's right in the middle of the Toronto WIND Zone but it's very poor with many dead spots that you can find while you are out on the street. Ironically, there are some days when signal near the The Queensway@Humber River/South Kingsway is at around -85dBm but other days, there's just no service at all. But on days when there's no service, it always happens in the exact same places, almost as if Wind's network is guilty of some cell breathing/shrinkage.

[pjw918]

..it's up to the providers to submit these at more or less their own pace.

Incorrect. While AWS/PCS/Cellular stations are not licensed individually, the spectrum licensees are required to report active stations, as specified by Industry Canada.

So if you aren't getting service in this area, then there's likely not an active tower at the area.

I had understood the purpose of the cell tower mapping utilities to be the display of active cell towers.

[bprintz]

I'm not entirely sure why you are saying that statement is incorrect. I never said they are not required to report active stations, I was saying they don't have to do it in advance and can do it at their own pace (since it's unlicensed and requires no application). You are correct they need to report these, but unlike Microwave they don't have to apply for this well in advance. From what I've been told to Industry Canada they only send the AWS/PCS/Cellular data 'a number of times' a year. As such it's possible these might not show up for some time after they are live, this is what I was insinuating by 'at their own pace'.

The purpose of the Cell Tower mapping is to show towers, however not all towers shown may be active. This is particularly true for sites that have a microwave license but no AWS/PCS/Cellular license. You may ask why some sites (my site @ crownhosting and canadiancows @ coveragemapper) show this Microwave data, and other sites (loxcel) don't? It relates directly to my point above! Microwave licenses must be first and formally applied to, take Peterborough or Kingston for example, they have Microwave licenses in TAFL/SD but no AWS/PCS/Cellular licenses yet for these sites, yet the sites are active and you can get cell service around them from Wind. We use Microwave sites often as predictors of new Cell Sites and are often assuming the data just hasn't been uploaded yet (since they aren't required to upload it before, they can do it at their own pace).

[canadiancow]

The purpose of the Cell Tower mapping is to show towers, however not all towers shown may be active. This is particularly true for sites that have a microwave license but no AWS/PCS/Cellular license. You may ask why some sites (my site @ crownhosting and canadiancows @ coveragemapper) show this Microwave data, and other sites (loxcel) don't? It relates directly to my point above! Microwave licenses must be first and formally applied to, take Peterborough or Kingston for example, they have Microwave licenses in TAFL/SD but no AWS/PCS/Cellular licenses yet for these sites, yet the sites are active and you can get cell service around them from Wind. We use Microwave sites often as predictors of new Cell Sites and are often assuming the data just hasn't been uploaded yet (since they aren't required to upload it before, they can do it at their own pace).

Exactly. According to the AWS licenses, there is no service in a lot of the places we know there is

Microwaves are good for more than just reheating food!

[pjw918]

I was saying they ...can do it at their own pace (since it's unlicensed and requires no application).

Still incorrect. You seem to be assuming that because there is not a licensing process for each individual AWS station, the IC reporting requirements are lax.

AWS/PCS/Cellular Data Upload
After this first submission, you must submit an upload periodically on a set schedule. The date that your next upload is required will be shown on Spectrum Direct...
Each submission should contain information on every station currently in operation.

And in emails from a Spectrum Management Operations manager:
the upload schedule for the AWS (as for any other Spectrum Licence type) is 30 days or as soon as there is a modification to the site or technical changes on any of the channels on the system.
and
Our upload system requires that ALL (new and modified) stations/channels be uploaded every month.

Can you give me a specific example of an AWS cell station that has been active for more than a month but is not yet listed in the ALS database?

they have Microwave licenses in TAFL/SD but no AWS/PCS/Cellular licenses yet for these sites

There are no site licenses for AWS stations.

seems like this tower is not up and running yet still weak signal in the area.. I even looked at the top of the 2 buildings in the area and there was no sign of new tower there.. can anyone confirm the situation of this tower?

What really annoys me is that the indiscriminate presentation, and announcement on HoFo, of microwave sites as functioning AWS cell stations is leading to false expectations and disappointment of users. People are driving around trying to signal map and visually identify these non-existent AWS cell towers!

Loxcel has corrected the default view on his cell tower map to exclude the microwave sites. The rest of you need to follow his lead.

[canadiancow]

What really annoys me is that the indiscriminate presentation, and announcement on HoFo, of microwave sites as functioning AWS cell stations is leading to false expectations and disappointment of users. People are driving around trying to signal map and visually identify these non-existent AWS cell towers!

Loxcel has corrected the default view on his cell tower map to exclude the microwave sites. The rest of you need to follow his lead.

And that's better than saying "no, there's nothing in Kingston"?

[bprintz]

I can give you specific data of sites that have been operating for over 3 months which supports my claims - look at the sites in Peterborough! I've had Wind home there since before Christmas and they still don't show up as an AWS cell station, only as Microwave. Again I agree once they start reporting a site they will need to keep reporting it (which should be easy since it will be in their DB they are extracting anyway), but it appears the rules are lax on the initial submission. I have talked to various IC Managers, National and Regional and confirmed this as well as many other details. If you simply want to sit there and try to nit-pick every post, go ahead, but I won't be responding to any others like this. Perhaps you could use your time more constructively making your own map, since you seem to think you have a better understanding of SD/TAFL than anyone else.

There are various maps out there that fit various people's needs. If you only want to see AWS sites only and not microwave sites, I suggest you use loxcel's maps, but you will be missing active areas such as Peterborough. If you want to see AWS and Microwave sites to get an idea of what's coming (Peterborough, Kingston, Winnipeg, Victoria etc), I suggest you use my map or canadiancows map. I think a lot of people here are aware how these maps work, and actually LIKE seeing what sites will be coming soon, which was the whole purpose and reason that I created my map. We don't claim to know everything, or claim that every location on our maps are active or ever will be active. Where our data comes from and what exactly we are mapping has been disclosed throughout this thread.

[Prevailing Wind]

This isn't a Wind-specific question, but there appears to be some kind of tower at Second Line West

Linky here: http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.617485...02.15,,0,-6.53

It must be new because it doesn't appear on the Streetview here. However I see no evidence of a tower here on any of the tower maps posted (for any of the mobile phone companies).

I wish I had a picture so people could speculate whose tower it is...

[pjw918]

Try doing a Licensee Name Search in SD, 8800 Dufferin St is a Microwave back-haul license for Globalive (Wind), same applies for 22 Southport Road...

Why would the onus be on the user to ferret out this information?

If you simply want to sit there and try to nit-pick every post, go ahead, but I won't be responding to any others like this. Perhaps you could use your time more constructively making your own map, since you seem to think you have a better understanding of SD/TAFL than anyone else.

Touched a nerve!

I'm sorry if I've seemed impudent or to be trespassing on your domain. The contribution you and canadiancow have made in providing signal and site mapping services to the mobile community has been awesome and is not in dispute. It was probably impolitic of me to draw a comparison.

The peripheral issues and personal indignation distract from the core concern, which is simple. Presenting microwave sites as AWS cell towers is misleading. I'm not the only one guilty of being confused and annoyed by this. It's something you can fix. You could offer a dropdown option for microwave display to your default view, or use a different marker type to distinguish the microwave sites. I'm sure there are other ways.

...what exactly we are mapping has been disclosed throughout this thread.

- 8800 Dufferin St!
- 22 Southport Road!

Two recent, objective examples of the issue.

--
I recognize the predictive value of the microwave licensed sites.

[torontocolin]

Waiting for the actual tower licenses may result in not seeing anything until official coverage has gone live. By showing microwave licenses, we get a chance to see where expansion is happening much sooner.

Even if they list only tower licenses there is no guarantee that there is an actual operating tower there. There is no way to know that for sure, short of visiting the site.

I'll take the way they're doing it right now, thanks.

[savbers]

Here is the tower:

And here is the box next to it:


Anyone have any idea what or who it is?

Following up on the fact that I found one like that as well:

It looks very similar to the pole you found and a similar box. Mine has been like this for a few seasons though and it used to be a flag pole.
There's also somethings written on the pole, not sure who it belongs to though!

it's also not 47ft tall, more likely 17 ft tall.

[torontocolin]

Thanks for the pictures, it does look similar. It looks like yours is manufactured by Shakespeare Composite Structures. I'll try and check tomorrow to see if mine is marked similarly.

[canadiancow]

Presenting microwave sites as AWS cell towers is misleading.

So, my map is simply a "tower map". It says nothing about AWS cell towers. Are the microwave sites not also on towers? (I actually don't know the answer to this, but I would assume yes)

Separating the two may be beneficial, but I stand by my main point: The tower map on Coverage Mapper is there because, and only because, people on this forum kept asking. There's a reason it's not on the "main" map (map.php?mccmnc=302490) The whole point of CM is to not have to rely on what the carrier TELLS YOU about its coverage.

If you see a tower with black/red around it, you can be fairly certain it's not an active AWS cell site. If it's surrounded in green, it probably is.

[cal653]

Nicely done. This post is backed up by correct facts instead of emotional opinions.

From what I am reading here WIND and all carriers are required to update their cell sites every 30 days. They may not do this, however this would be considered a breach of Industry Canada's regulations. If people complain, you can bet Industry Canada would force Wind and other carriers to comply.

An example would be the incorrect co-ordinates on the Mobilicity tower maps. After people complained to Industry Canada, they forced Mobilicity to comply.

Still incorrect. You seem to be assuming that because there is not a licensing process for each individual AWS station, the IC reporting requirements are lax.

AWS/PCS/Cellular Data Upload
After this first submission, you must submit an upload periodically on a set schedule. The date that your next upload is required will be shown on Spectrum Direct...
Each submission should contain information on every station currently in operation.

And in emails from a Spectrum Management Operations manager:
the upload schedule for the AWS (as for any other Spectrum Licence type) is 30 days or as soon as there is a modification to the site or technical changes on any of the channels on the system.
and
Our upload system requires that ALL (new and modified) stations/channels be uploaded every month.