LTE Markets/Rollout Official Discussion

[dave73]

What?? Why would they waste time and money on HSPA+ when their CDMA network is very capable. This probably would have delayed VZW's deployment of LTE.

Not only that, HSPA+ requires a lot of spectrum. It needs a minimum of 10mhz paired (5mhz downlink & 5mhz uplink). For Chicago, Verizon only has 35mhz to work with (25mhz in 850 & 10mhz in 1900). For my area, EVDO is strictly in the 1900 band while 1X is strictly in 850. While I live in SID 20 (Chicago market), NW Indiana doesn't experience the same congestion that Chicago and some nearby suburbs experience. So on the Illinois side, some towers have EVDO in both 850 & 1900 (along with 1X in 1900 as well, though pushing it).

[hwertz]

dcbw, don't forget though Verizon doesn't put one antenna per site. Those rates would be per *sector*. Almost no-one runs a monopole, I think by standard Verizon builds every site at least with 3-way sectorization, some company here in Iowa City (not Verizon) has one or two sites built with 8 sectors! Still they will probably have capacity trouble in some cities but it's not as bad as the numbers imply at first glance.

Not only that, HSPA+ requires a lot of spectrum. It needs a minimum of 10mhz paired (5mhz downlink & 5mhz uplink).

Yep. I think AT&T scrimped a bit, but I do think this is what's REALLY causing them problems -- having to shift 10mhz at a time from GSM to 3G will be impossible in a few markets, and difficult to juggle the 3G versus GSM in many many others.. if they have 20mhz, it's either 0 3G or 50% 3G; if they have 30 or 35mhz it's 0, 1/3rd, or 2/3rds. (They are STILL selling GSM-only phones so they will not be able to turn off GSM for a long long time.) Verizon's using fairly wide LTE channels since they got plenty of spectrum, but LTE does have a ~1.25mhz option (I think it actually is 1.4mhz) so if a carrier doesn't have 700mhz spectrum to use, they can squeeze in some LTE in the 800mhz and 1900mhz spectrum they already have even if it's fairly full.

[ParthG]

VZW also needs to take into account how willingly manufacturers are going to make devices that are compatible with their network. 700/1700/800/1900 that's all the possible ones for the US. Now Europe can use it on 900/1800/2100 (And 700/1700 depending on if it's available or not).

Even if everyone is on the same technology, it doesn't do much good if every carrier has different hardware requirements. Heck if we don't even have a quadband WCDMA chipset I don't see how this is going to work out.

[zephxiii]

From what I understand Verizon wants to keep their 1x voice network around for a long time and use LTE for data only until 2018-2020.

I've read that article as well and I didn't read it like that. It seemed more like they wanted to keep CDMA voice up to 2018-2020 for those that have not migrated to LTE voice (this is more logical). I mean think about it, if the want to run it up to 2018-2020, and the are expecting LTE to be fully deployed in 2013, that like a 5-7 year period to get people off of CDMA on onto LTE (voice included)...and you know it's going to take time get the masses moved over.

I mean why would you want a half ***** LTE setup that doesn't use voice as well? Screw that, I want to full 3gpp experience, and it kinda limits you to handset selection as well. I don't really expect LTE phones to become available for a couple of years though, which kind of the norm. The first couple years of VZWs LTE will be for data cards, netbooks, and other data only appliances etc only while they work on deployment and refinement.

The key to all this is getting everyone onto LTE as quickly as possible without using force (because LTE is an overlay on new spectrum), so that CDMA can be turned down so that additional LTE can be deployed on the spectrum CDMA used to operate in. That should be the plan.

Melone said that Verizon's 2.5G CDMA 1xRTT network is "very stable" for voice services. "In 2018 or 2020, we're likely to still have a 1x network."

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=176454&

Yea they'll probably still have 1x around because you'll probably still have those people that don't ever upgrade and don't care, thus have not migrated to LTE yet.

If you were planning on all LTE phones to still use CDMA for voice up to 2018, you wouldn't be making a statement saying that you might still have 1x around in 2018...you are only saying that because you need to support the users who aren't on LTE yet.

I mean why the hell would you want a halfassed LTE phone that still needed CDMA for voice????? Sure having CDMA capability is nice if there is no LTE signal and I expect their phones to be capable of that, but if they are really going to have LTE rocking on big bold and beautiful 700mhz in 100% of their network in 3-4 years...**** CDMA!

[Dubspoon]

2010 is now, that would be an extremely heavy undertaking considering there are on live LTE spots with data even. CDMA voice and data has an at least 5 year shelf life on both networks. I really wonder how the trials are going because there was usually some type of blurb from some type of Verizon rep every time a WiMax story popped up but it been awfully quiet lately, something big must be brewing.

[fraydog]

I mean why the hell would you want a halfassed LTE phone that still needed CDMA for voice????? Sure having CDMA capability is nice if there is no LTE signal and I expect their phones to be capable of that, but if they are really going to have LTE rocking on big bold and beautiful 700mhz in 100% of their network in 3-4 years...**** CDMA!

That's my entire point. If you're going to use CS fallback, why not do it to the right fallback to the 3GPP standard instead of using the CDMA solution? Personally I hope that IMS implementation gets expedited.

If CDMA voice and LTE data is used VZW is opening themselves to a whole new world of pain. If they are still using CDMA voice and LTE data on devices, guess what? They still have the proprietary lock on their devices. It should be easy to see why they want to do this.

Nevermind that they could easily make the money back on global roaming from GSM - a big reason Telus, Bell, and Telstra switched their CDMA networks to UMTS in the first place. In the case of Bell and Telus they bolted on UMTS, in the case of Telstra they retired CDMA completely.

[hwertz]

That's my entire point. If you're going to use CS fallback, why not do it to the right fallback to the 3GPP standard instead of using the CDMA solution?

Because 3GPP has proven to be difficult to deploy, and installing 2 networks instead of one is daft.
I see the earliest LTE devices being data only. The earliest LTE phones *may* use LTE for data only, and rely on CDMA for voice. But I don't think this'll last long -- I mean, before long you'll have phones that are LTE+GSM or LTE+CDMA, but will only use the GSM or CDMA outside the LTE footprint. Which, at the rate Verizon plans to expand will not be terribly relevant in just a few years. Verizon plans to keep 1X going for years, but LTE is all-IP so even if the initial LTE network doesn't support voice, adding it later should not be too difficult... since it's not circuit-switched you wouldn't have to add seperate backhaul to add voice later, just either software-update the LTE gear, or add a little extra gear to the switch (network switch, not phone switch).

[Dubspoon]

I don't see 4G handling voice for a while, LTE and WiMax will be data for around 2 years before a viable voice solution on either comes about

[zephxiii]

There already are viable solutions for voice over LTE. Thing is that it seems vzw isn't planning on going with a CS fallback to CDMA for LTE, maybe as a temporary thing, but in the end they are wanting to go with an IMS voip as soon as they can. That is more verizon's style, going all the way with the latest network tech, not part of the way (FiOS as an example). LTE IMS is the ultimate goal, they aren't going to waste time getting to that goal either.

[fraydog]

Could you please enlighten us as to the advantages of going HSPA+, given the fact that they have a very mature CDMA network. From what I understand Verizon wants to keep their 1x voice network around for a long time and use LTE for data only until 2018-2020.

There's no problem with keeping the 1x network around... it's global roaming on UMTS that VZW would gain *cough*iPhone*cough* from this approach.

[fraydog]

Because 3GPP has proven to be difficult to deploy, and installing 2 networks instead of one is daft.
I see the earliest LTE devices being data only. The earliest LTE phones *may* use LTE for data only, and rely on CDMA for voice. But I don't think this'll last long -- I mean, before long you'll have phones that are LTE+GSM or LTE+CDMA, but will only use the GSM or CDMA outside the LTE footprint. Which, at the rate Verizon plans to expand will not be terribly relevant in just a few years. Verizon plans to keep 1X going for years, but LTE is all-IP so even if the initial LTE network doesn't support voice, adding it later should not be too difficult... since it's not circuit-switched you wouldn't have to add seperate backhaul to add voice later, just either software-update the LTE gear, or add a little extra gear to the switch (network switch, not phone switch).

OK fair point, but Bell Canada just had a record quarter going to HSPA+ as a stop gap to their LTE deployment. I'm not even saying that VZW has to launch HSPA+ before LTE, they can do it at the same time and keep their 1x and EV-DO networks intact. They have enough spectrum in most markets that they can do this.

[bigsnake49]

I've read that article as well and I didn't read it like that. It seemed more like they wanted to keep CDMA voice up to 2018-2020 for those that have not migrated to LTE voice (this is more logical). I mean think about it, if the want to run it up to 2018-2020, and the are expecting LTE to be fully deployed in 2013, that like a 5-7 year period to get people off of CDMA on onto LTE (voice included)...and you know it's going to take time get the masses moved over.

I mean why would you want a half ***** LTE setup that doesn't use voice as well? Screw that, I want to full 3gpp experience, and it kinda limits you to handset selection as well. I don't really expect LTE phones to become available for a couple of years though, which kind of the norm. The first couple years of VZWs LTE will be for data cards, netbooks, and other data only appliances etc only while they work on deployment and refinement.

The key to all this is getting everyone onto LTE as quickly as possible without using force (because LTE is an overlay on new spectrum), so that CDMA can be turned down so that additional LTE can be deployed on the spectrum CDMA used to operate in. That should be the plan.


http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=176454&

Yea they'll probably still have 1x around because you'll probably still have those people that don't ever upgrade and don't care, thus have not migrated to LTE yet.

If you were planning on all LTE phones to still use CDMA for voice up to 2018, you wouldn't be making a statement saying that you might still have 1x around in 2018...you are only saying that because you need to support the users who aren't on LTE yet.

I mean why the hell would you want a halfassed LTE phone that still needed CDMA for voice????? Sure having CDMA capability is nice if there is no LTE signal and I expect their phones to be capable of that, but if they are really going to have LTE rocking on big bold and beautiful 700mhz in 100% of their network in 3-4 years...**** CDMA!

LTE is immature and is more so when it comes to voice. Verizon has a great CDMA network and know that voice is still their bread and butter. Data can be a little immature but voice has to work every time. There will be CDMA+LTE chipsets and HSPA+LTE chipsets for a while. There has been a lot of work on making the two networks co-exist. I have not heard anybody yet saying they're going to migrate off of their networks wholesale. Everybody is playing it safe, as they should. If LTE is all that, they will migrate sooner, if not, then slow does it.

[bigsnake49]

That's my entire point. If you're going to use CS fallback, why not do it to the right fallback to the 3GPP standard instead of using the CDMA solution? Personally I hope that IMS implementation gets expedited.

If CDMA voice and LTE data is used VZW is opening themselves to a whole new world of pain. If they are still using CDMA voice and LTE data on devices, guess what? They still have the proprietary lock on their devices. It should be easy to see why they want to do this.

Nevermind that they could easily make the money back on global roaming from GSM - a big reason Telus, Bell, and Telstra switched their CDMA networks to UMTS in the first place. In the case of Bell and Telus they bolted on UMTS, in the case of Telstra they retired CDMA completely.

There's not that much global roaming on GSM handsets since the rates are so darn expensive. Most people just get a local sim. Only the most generous of firms will reimburse for global roaming. A friend of mine is just now having problems getting his firm to reimburse him for his $3000 data roaming bill. Pretty much everybody has gotten smart about roaming rates.

[ilvla2]

Almost no-one runs a monopole, .

I think you mean almost no one runs a single antenna on a pole, monopole's in the cellular world are very common. We have several monopoles in this area, and even some Monopine's (Monopole's designed to look like Pine Trees).

http://images.google.com/images?sour...N&hl=en&tab=wi

[ilvla2]

For my area, EVDO is strictly in the 1900 band while 1X is strictly in 850.

It's the same in our BTA (SF/SJ/OAK), however, this is a very rural area up here (I'm in Redwood Valley in Mendocino County, 120 miles northwest of SF) so congestion definitely isn't a problem in our Rural Service Area (RSA 344;Mendocino & Lake Counties). If you go over to the Sacramento Valley, for example, EVDO is run on 850, in this BTA though Verizon had to buy some 1900 spectrum from Metro PCS to be able to roll out EVDO, and although we aren't physically part of the Bay Area we got included in this by being in the same BTA.

Edit-An articles on it-

http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireles...2/130727.shtml

Okay, I see now, Cellular Spectrum was/is assigned by Service Area (RSA, MSA), but PCS Spectrum was/is assigned by BTA, or am I getting this all mixed up?