The Pestilent Pentile Display Discussion Thread

[Merican735]

As far as outdoor performance goes, currently all phone screens will look terrible in sunlight. Maybe one type will be slightly less bad than the others, but none of them will be good. So I don't really worry about the outdoor performance as long as its viewable.

However, a constant screendoor/crosshatch effect? That is totally unacceptable.

So I take it that you do not own a phone with an LCD screen... or did you invent your own display technology?

[bsweetness]

The friction comes from the Bionic thread being overrun with pentile display rants when in all honesty we don't know what the screen will look like.

Exactly. While a few bits here and there did, I don't think the overall friction came from differing opinions. To me it really seemed like it came from the fact that the discussion of one thing, something we don't even know for sure is a part of the phone (although it probably is in all likelihood), took over the entire thread. Most of the discussion wasn't about pentile as it relates to the Bionic, but about opinions and observations on the pentile that's already out there. While that's certainly valuable information to have and to discuss, even within the discussion of the Bionic/Targa, it shouldn't be the entire focal point of that thread.

Talking about pentile as it relates to the Bionic? Sure, but there's next to nothing to go on for that right now. Talking about pentile in general at substantial length? That deserves it's own thread.

[jasaero]

So I take it that you do not own a phone with an LCD screen... or did you invent your own display technology?

LCD can be plenty readable in sunlight AND use less battery doing so. This only works with LCD's that can run in a reflective near monochromatic mode though such as those from Pixel Qi. My opinion is of LCD's or really any illuminated display in sunlight is the same as his in that none are easy to read for anything other than extreme contrasted content. If it's really only usable for quick tasks such as checking time, dialing a phone number, or maybe reading an email or two before you get aggravated with sun basically washing out your display I consider them all the same effectively. I am not going to put a phone that is bearable for 4 e-mails in direct sun over one that is bearable for 2. And if I have to squint and wiggle the phone a bit to see or dial a number a bit more on one phone in the sun than another I am fine with that also if it's a cleaner display indoors.

[jasaero]

Exactly. While a few bits here and there did, I don't think the overall friction came from differing opinions. To me it really seemed like it came from the fact that the discussion of one thing, something we don't even know for sure is a part of the phone (although it probably is in all likelihood), took over the entire thread. Most of the discussion wasn't about pentile as it relates to the Bionic, but about opinions and observations on the pentile that's already out there. While that's certainly valuable information to have and to discuss, even within the discussion of the Bionic/Targa, it shouldn't be the entire focal point of that thread.

Talking about pentile as it relates to the Bionic? Sure, but there's next to nothing to go on for that right now. Talking about pentile in general at substantial length? That deserves it's own thread.

This is for certain partially true, but I also think the Targa thread is a bit hostile toward any discussion that drifts toward criticism of what is believed will be the eventual configuration of the device. The lapdock/memory, OMAP 4430/4460, and battery complaints don't usually seem to be taken in total acceptance there either, even though they are valid things to discuss. And really nothing is fully confirmed in a way you can be certain is it going to be part of the phone. I think those things just cause less friction more because they aren't discussed in as much length.

There is a bit of general annoyance toward any critical discussion in the thread though. I myself think pre-release discussion should be focused mostly on critical stuffs so as to help anything not fully decided be swayed if peeps making such decisions monitor threads like those.

[Merican735]

LCD can be plenty readable in sunlight AND use less battery doing so. This only works with LCD's that can run in a reflective near monochromatic mode though such as those from Pixel Qi. My opinion is of LCD's or really any illuminated display in sunlight is the same as his in that none are easy to read for anything other than extreme contrasted content. If it's really only usable for quick tasks such as checking time, dialing a phone number, or maybe reading an email or two before you get aggravated with sun basically washing out your display I consider them all the same effectively. I am not going to put a phone that is bearable for 4 e-mails in direct sun over one that is bearable for 2. And if I have to squint and wiggle the phone a bit to see or dial a number a bit more on one phone in the sun than another I am fine with that also if it's a cleaner display indoors.

I was only making a sarcastic remark due to the fact that all LCD, LED screens have a visible dot pitch to some extent.

[Merican735]

Exactly. While a few bits here and there did, I don't think the overall friction came from differing opinions. To me it really seemed like it came from the fact that the discussion of one thing, something we don't even know for sure is a part of the phone (although it probably is in all likelihood), took over the entire thread. Most of the discussion wasn't about pentile as it relates to the Bionic, but about opinions and observations on the pentile that's already out there. While that's certainly valuable information to have and to discuss, even within the discussion of the Bionic/Targa, it shouldn't be the entire focal point of that thread.

Talking about pentile as it relates to the Bionic? Sure, but there's next to nothing to go on for that right now. Talking about pentile in general at substantial length? That deserves it's own thread.

Exactly which is why I can post about screens here without any compunction, where in the Bionic thread its not relevant... yet...

[Kies]

PenTile isn't the only problem with the DX2's screen.

I don't mind it on my Galaxy S Vibrant though.. the SuperAMOLED-ness makes up for it. You're not going to get better blacks anywhere. I don't see the justification for PenTile matrix with LCD on a high end 3G phone.

[GorillaTheHutt]

since there's a separate thread now, i thought i'd chip in.

i want to dispel the myth that you will only notice pentile if it's placed side-by-side with non-pentile or if you already know about it. the first time i used the Nexus S i thought it was a really slick phone, but i kept wondering what the deal was with all these little black speckles i saw everywhere. in particular, when i pressed the menu button and the menu came up, it was supposed to be solid grey, but i could see black spots everywhere! it was after seeing this that i started investigating and learned about pentile. so it was the crappyness of a pentile screen that made me notice pentile, not previous knowledge.

now i realize the Moto pentile tech is different and the resoution is higher than the Nexus S, but now i am cursed with pentile-vision. i could instantly see it on my coworker's Atrix, and I can only assume it will be worse on the Bionic since the pixels are bigger.

will this make me skip the Bionic? that's hard to say. i'm still looking forward to the Bionic. i'm also looking forward to the S2, but it looks like that's a long time coming. chances are, I will still get the Bionic.

[Slaughtrr]

This is for certain partially true, but I also think the Targa thread is a bit hostile toward any discussion that drifts toward criticism of what is believed will be the eventual configuration of the device. The lapdock/memory, OMAP 4430/4460, and battery complaints don't usually seem to be taken in total acceptance there either, even though they are valid things to discuss. And really nothing is fully confirmed in a way you can be certain is it going to be part of the phone. I think those things just cause less friction more because they aren't discussed in as much length.

There is a bit of general annoyance toward any critical discussion in the thread though. I myself think pre-release discussion should be focused mostly on critical stuffs so as to help anything not fully decided be swayed if peeps making such decisions monitor threads like those.

Precisely, these are pre-release threads. There is going to be a very diverse bunch of people in those threads. Not everyone is going to be popping Champagne bottles and singing the Jolly Good Fellow song. The thin skinned have no business in them because they will hear harse criticism at times. Trying to control what is said and how many pages is acceptable for any one topic to go on for is craziness. In the absence of no new info what else is there to talk about? Sports scores? The weather? The Targa thread would have died months ago if the only thing that could be talked about at length was what was factual.

Most of us have been around forums long enough to know what happens in pre-release threads. It's nothing new. I enjoy both the postive and negative perspectives because I'm interested in what others have to say even though I may not agree with them. I may even learn a thing or two along the way. Differing opinions are what make things interesting. I say if you want to grab a pair of pom poms and cheer go become a cheerleader but here at HoFo and other forums people discuss and debate.

[rkeller62]

Pentile technology is not "crappy" or "Inferior" in and of itself. There are several positive benefits to the technology that no other phone display technology can match. However, the execution to date has been flawed by not providing enough pixel density to overcome the major downside to pentile technology. This downside is most evident in large areas of solid green color. This is due to the eye being able to discern the location of a green light source better than a blue or red one.

I believe that I read somewhere that this issue of seeing the "Screen door effect" with solid colors on a pentile screen is almost entirely mitigated once the pixel density reaches around 300 ppi. I also read the the new 720P resolution tablet displays that Samsung is developing will be using the pentile sub-pixel arrangement again.

[jasaero]

Pentile technology is not "crappy" or "Inferior" in and of itself. There are several positive benefits to the technology that no other phone display technology can match. However, the execution to date has been flawed by not providing enough pixel density to overcome the major downside to pentile technology. This downside is most evident in large areas of solid green color. This is due to the eye being able to discern the location of a green light source better than a blue or red one.

I believe that I read somewhere that this issue of seeing the "Screen door effect" with solid colors on a pentile screen is almost entirely mitigated once the pixel density reaches around 300 ppi. I also read the the new 720P resolution tablet displays that Samsung is developing will be using the pentile sub-pixel arrangement again.

Agreed, and I have made this point in the targa thread, but it was probably a longer post. The real issue is that current resolutions and screen sizes are not to the proper ppi to accomplish this. Also, a stripe pattern will require less pixels for the same screen size and lower ppi in general to get to this point. So from a GPU/pixel pushing overhead perspective it will always be at a disadvantage to standard strip pixels.

From everything I have read though, LCD pentile is more to get better brightness/power draw and more "claimed" resolution for the same price. This makes it mostly a cost cutting/bean counting decision in getting to a higher "claimed" resolution as far as I can gather. Basically the resolution is a near total farce as you push the extra pixels but don't really get the extra subpixels to fully render an equivalent extra fidelity. Then get the grainy artifacts in particular in flat colored areas.

In the end I am not sure the power advantages will be worth driving the extra pixels. Just driving more pixels through the 2D and 3D display subsystems on the IC will draw extra power offsetting some of the power efficiency gains. AMOLED is also just inherently more efficient also yet phones that have both that display tech and LCD from HTC do not seem to have vast differences in battery life. I think a lot of this comes from so much power getting used for background screen off activity and talk use that is mostly done with screen off.

As far brightness capability goes, I think you are better off offering something with reflective and illuminated modes like what Pixel Qi offers if you have customers that need extreme bright environment such as outdoor use to be top notch. Also that tech's turn off backlight all together when you aren't concerned about display quality and save FAR more power than just being pentile with some white pixels.

It is possible there would be a cost reason to go ahead and drive the extra pixels in a premium device and do pentile once you get beyond what human eye can pick up on.

[Slaughtrr]

Pentile technology is not "crappy" or "Inferior" in and of itself. There are several positive benefits to the technology that no other phone display technology can match. However, the execution to date has been flawed by not providing enough pixel density to overcome the major downside to pentile technology. This downside is most evident in large areas of solid green color. This is due to the eye being able to discern the location of a green light source better than a blue or red one.

I believe that I read somewhere that this issue of seeing the "Screen door effect" with solid colors on a pentile screen is almost entirely mitigated once the pixel density reaches around 300 ppi. I also read the the new 720P resolution tablet displays that Samsung is developing will be using the pentile sub-pixel arrangement again.

great post! Informative.

[jasaero]

Not being mentioned in any of these articles, but betting it's this extreme resolution because it's pentile and HAS to be to look decent. BTW, this would come to almost the EXACT same DPI as a 4.3 inch 16:9 pentile qHD at a bit over 250dpi. I will say that would probably look sharper in most respects than current tablets, but that's also a BIG area of grain. The Retina display is near 350 or almost 100 more dots each inch and it's not pentile. Figure that is overkill for non-pentile, but probably need to be almost to that point to get ride of grain on pentile LCD's.

http://www.bgr.com/2011/07/14/motoro...gh-res-screen/

[jasaero]

Here is a dpi/ppi calculator. A 4.5" 1280x720 HD screen would only be the same ppi as iPhone4. Would be real curious if that is enough to get rid of pentile grain/screen doors for most of us??(BTW, this is assuming square pixels)

http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html

[tdizzel]

I just read a review of the Droid 3. One of the pros that they gave was that it had a great screen. I wanted to reach through my computer and punch them. I mean, don't they realize its pentile??

/sarcasm