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Thread: The GooMoto Thread! Where does Moto go now that it will be part of Google?

  1. #31
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    To be entirely honest jasaero, it's been a long time since I really took any manufacturer's promise for an OS upgrade with less than a block of salt. I only buy a phone/device happy with the software included with it and assume that I'm going to get security updates to the current version and that's it - history tells us this should be our expectations.

    If an OS upgrade is provided - minor or major, then I consider that a tasty bonus and nothing more. I was recently considering the D4, and knowing it launched with Gingerbread wasn't a big deal to me, and I figured the ICS update would either not come, or it would be really late in product cycle. It didn't bother me. I'm happy with the software and features in Gingerbread. I ultimately didn't buy that phone but it was due to the screen and relatively low battery life and no extended battery options amongst other things but that's for a different thread.

    --Kidd
    Hear me on Twitter: @alexkidd1 / Fun connection:

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexKidd1977 View Post
    To be entirely honest jasaero, it's been a long time since I really took any manufacturer's promise for an OS upgrade with less than a block of salt. I only buy a phone/device happy with the software included with it and assume that I'm going to get security updates to the current version and that's it - history tells us this should be our expectations.

    If an OS upgrade is provided - minor or major, then I consider that a tasty bonus and nothing more. I was recently considering the D4, and knowing it launched with Gingerbread wasn't a big deal to me, and I figured the ICS update would either not come, or it would be really late in product cycle. It didn't bother me. I'm happy with the software and features in Gingerbread. I ultimately didn't buy that phone but it was due to the screen and relatively low battery life and no extended battery options amongst other things but that's for a different thread.

    --Kidd
    This shouldn't have to be anyone's expectation though. And really I think all it would take is a more app centric on top of stock Android development approach. Offer special functionality through apps. Maybe leave corporate peeps on old versions if you are doing low level security stuffs.

    These sorts of expectations from customers even if the same for all brands aren't going to win any of them new customers. Basically it's bad for Android as whole.

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    It seems BOTH sides have now confirmed what most of us have been hoping would NOT be the real truth of the Google Moto combo. I don't want Android closed down or anything, but I WOULD like to see one vendor be more directly tied to Android and Google with only Vanilla devices and such designed more per Googles direction like the Nexus. I don't see anything wrong with such a deal if all other players are still give just as good of access to the code being used and such.

    It would also be interesting if Google took Motorola and opened up the device designs to their competitors with reference designs of sorts and to devs in general for the proprietary low level code Moto still protects(all this probably couldn't be opened up fully as TI and Qualcomm and such where some of the code is coming from couldn't be opened with just Moto ownership, but radio code could), just like they do with the Android software. This would allow devs to do more and also allow competitors and particularly small start up players an easier entry into the device supply game as there would be a very good starting point of a device that could just be copied and improved upon.

    It would help competition become even more fierce and force more extreme means of getting ahead as simple experience with device development over the years wouldn't give you so much advantage. I really think it would force more extreme devices into existence as simply having some nuanced advantage related to experience and secret proprietary know how wouldn't be as easy to create if one player was always doing things in the open and letting everyone barrow from them. It would commoditize devices that stuck to these reference designs, but force creativity beyond such design to stand out be more than a commodity. I really so no reason there shouldn't be very capable commodity type smartphones already though. The only reason there isn't is because of how protective all the players are of what it takes to make a decent device that is compatible with this network or that. So only pretty standard GSM world devices are commodities. VZW or Sprint or AT&T devices could be the same though if open public designs for them were being handed out by a player like Google who isn't really interested in making big margins on hardware so much as software and internet services.

    Basically disrupt cellular device OEM industry.

    http://phandroid.com/2012/03/01/moto...s-acquisition/

  4. #34
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    The implications of the near approach of Mozilla BTG are woven all through the above post.

    Perspective instantiates reality.
    ( By DX w/HoFo app. )
    Learning Android root on my SGSIII while waiting for Ubuntu Phone OS.

    The Borg has assimilated US: Supreme Court Blocks Ban on Corporate Political Spending ~ "Resistance is futile."


    Perspective instantiates reality.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaero View Post
    It seems BOTH sides have now confirmed what most of us have been hoping would NOT be the real truth of the Google Moto combo. I don't want Android closed down or anything, but I WOULD like to see one vendor be more directly tied to Android and Google with only Vanilla devices and such designed more per Googles direction like the Nexus.
    Not me. Vanilla Android lacks compared to what the manufactures are doing with their UI's. Vanilla Gingerbread is BORING and we have not seen what Motorola/Samsung/HTC etc are going to do with ICS. I'm sure they will take it and make it much better, but again that remains to be seen. Vanilla Android is over rated I think. ICS doesn't impress me at all. I have Gingerblur on my Razr and it runs just as good if not better than ICS. Not to mention it has a ton of functionality. I can only imagine what Moto is going to do with ICS.

    Beating the Vanilla Android drum is a meme that will die soon I think. Manufacture overlays have come a long way and they just look and perform a lot better. Lets see if that trend continues with ICS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughtrr View Post
    Not me. Vanilla Android lacks compared to what the manufactures are doing with their UI's. Vanilla Gingerbread is BORING and we have not seen what Motorola/Samsung/HTC etc are going to do with ICS. I'm sure they will take it and make it much better, but again that remains to be seen. Vanilla Android is over rated I think. ICS doesn't impress me at all. I have Gingerblur on my Razr and it runs just as good if not better than ICS. Not to mention it has a ton of functionality. I can only imagine what Moto is going to do with ICS.

    Beating the Vanilla Android drum is a meme that will die soon I think. Manufacture overlays have come a long way and they just look and perform a lot better. Lets see if that trend continues with ICS.
    I don't feel that way at all. To me it's just more bloatware. Maybe if it wasn't being shoved down my throat, I might be more charitably objective.

    If it's as great as you say a manufacturer would have nothing to lose by selling its handsets vanilla and making the overlay like another app that you can either install or delete from your phone as you choose.

    I hope there is still a real likelihood that the Google influence will make for more 'Google experience' Moto phones.

    Perspective instantiates reality.
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    Last edited by TC_Mits; 03-05-2012 at 02:08 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    I don't feel that way at all. To me it's just more bloatware. Maybe if it wasn't being shoved down my throat, I might be more charitably objective.

    If it's as great as you say a manufacturer would have nothing to lose by selling its handsets vanilla and making the overlay like another app that you can either install or delete from your phone as you choose.

    I hope there is still a real likelihood that the Google influence will make for more 'Google experience' Moto phones.

    Perspective instantiates reality.
    ( By DX w/HoFo app. )
    I'm a fan of HTC Sense, but this is exactly how it should be done. Ideally, all phones would come with Vanilla Android, then you could buy the manufacturers' UI on the App Store or something.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortSxit View Post
    I'm a fan of HTC Sense, but this is exactly how it should be done. Ideally, all phones would come with Vanilla Android, then you could buy the manufacturers' UI on the App Store or something.
    I find it rather amusing to listen to discussions about this. I think Google laid down the gauntlet with the manufacturer's that their interface adjustments needed to be leaner to stay on the ICS bandwagon. HTC and the other manufacturer's are spinning it as something their people came up with to "simplify" things. Everybody believes the manufacturer's have suddenly seen the light, but really they simply passed through a door that would have been shut had they not agreed.

    --Kidd

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughtrr View Post
    Not me. Vanilla Android lacks compared to what the manufactures are doing with their UI's. Vanilla Gingerbread is BORING and we have not seen what Motorola/Samsung/HTC etc are going to do with ICS. I'm sure they will take it and make it much better, but again that remains to be seen. Vanilla Android is over rated I think. ICS doesn't impress me at all. I have Gingerblur on my Razr and it runs just as good if not better than ICS. Not to mention it has a ton of functionality. I can only imagine what Moto is going to do with ICS.

    Beating the Vanilla Android drum is a meme that will die soon I think. Manufacture overlays have come a long way and they just look and perform a lot better. Lets see if that trend continues with ICS.
    Not sure what you prefer with GingerBlur, but I can't really agree. Even aesthetically I find stock android nicer in most instances. MotoBlur is overly shaded or something with blacky bluish tones rather than nice flat colors and TouchWiz is too cartoony. HTC Sense is just too much bling in general. I will admit stock gingerbread was a bit boring, but technically preferred it to any of the skins. ICS is just nice though.

    But really my larger issue is with all the little nuanced customization's even when I like them as in the toggles in the status drawer on some TouchWiz stuffs. I prefer the customizable CyanogenMod and other custom toggles to the TouchWiz ones though. The problem has to do with these sorts of things slowing down the wider availability of subsequent Google releases that do bring a lot of new things to the table in most cases. Particularly for newer hardware and from a developer perspective.

    All this new stuff under the hood is lost though if nobody runs these new code drops for months or even near a year. Sure MotoBlur, Sense, and TouchWiz launchers might now be hardware accelerated just like ICS, but ICS also has LOT AND LOTS AND LOTS of hardware acceleration related development stuffs added on the back end for EVERYTHING else you might be running and NOT JUST the launcher. BUT, the problem is NO DEV is going to develop for these new under the hood acceleration abilities on all your favorite apps that might still be a bit clunky if NONE of the device our there actually getting used really support these new acceleration capabilities. And until the OEMs and Google can come up with a system where new code drops can hit devices faster we will always be waiting months or years to actually see the fruits of the labor put into some new Google release.

    Gingerbread is a perfect example. Look at all the apps out there now that only really work well on Gingerbread and maybe even have special versions for older android builds. These same things will happen eventually with ICS and all it's improvements that aren't even being seen just yet.

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    Also, as an aside, we all have to remember who our competitor is. The iThing's OS can get a new version and in very little time a very broad segment of iThing users are on this newer version with new features for devs to exploit. Because of this aspect for Android to really stay well ahead of iThing the new Android versions need to hit existing and new Android devices pretty quick. Atleast keep the times it takes to get these new versions out to existing devices that will be supported under a reasonable time frame and not let them increase each new Google release.

    If Moto really never gets VZW devices being sold today on ICS before the 3rd or 4th quarters that is just not acceptable. And this goes for all the rest of the Android OEMs. They ALL need to be acting faster than that so devs can target ICS features as quickly as possible and improve the android experience as many of the ICS features don't really start doing that until devs are actually targeting ICS as their primary thing.

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    I have to say this, and I know this has been covered before but people don't get it. Touch, Blur, Sense are all much, much more than the UI or launcher. They go so much deeper. A launcher and the UI is the code on the top that has API calls, changing it is easy which is why things like GoLauncher exist.
    Those custom skins (and it is an incorrect word) go down through the framework. They add features and stability to an OS that has more issues than you would want to know (including more APIs to cover things Google forgets). In the past they have added HW acceleration, panaramic pictures, resizable widgets, social website integration, and tons of stuff you can't see.

    The next version of the Motorola "skin" will surprise you, and should end the complaints about how it looks. But it will start much more as people want the upgrades faster (of course lets be honest, blogs are 49.5% complaining and 49.5% fanboys with only 1% being useful).

    And during all the complaints, can you try and remember than once a manufacturer is done it goes to carrer testing which is 8 weeks (Verizon) to 12 weeks (AT&T) long. So if it is done in May you won't get it until July at the earliest.

    As for the idea of making the upgrades more like apps, Google tried that. Won't work since so many upgrades require new Kernels and upgrades to the framework. And with Security getting to be bigger and bigger of an issue you can forget that idea.

    Oh, and zero chance Google opens up Motorola's radio software to the world. Google is about making money, and if Motorola's advantages are given to everyone than Motorola will really start losing massive money (and not the stock market type that counts depreciation, straight cash as in R&D with no sales).

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexKidd1977 View Post
    I find it rather amusing to listen to discussions about this. I think Google laid down the gauntlet with the manufacturer's that their interface adjustments needed to be leaner to stay on the ICS bandwagon. HTC and the other manufacturer's are spinning it as something their people came up with to "simplify" things. Everybody believes the manufacturer's have suddenly seen the light, but really they simply passed through a door that would have been shut had they not agreed.

    --Kidd
    I don't know anything about ICS (being that I have a TBolt), but I remember reading a while back that a lot of the features from various manufacturers' UIs would be redundant/obsolete come ICS. Is that what your referring to?

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    If new Android OS versions need that much shoring up by the manufacturers, it's amazing the Nexus phones work as well as they do. I wonder if the companies compare notes, or if a lot of the ICS debugging going on now is redundant as each ferrets out the same deep structural problems with Google's latest Android version independently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susurro View Post
    Oh, and zero chance Google opens up Motorola's radio software to the world. Google is about making money, and if Motorola's advantages are given to everyone than Motorola will really start losing massive money (and not the stock market type that counts depreciation, straight cash as in R&D with no sales).
    This I find very concerning. This is basically an admittance that Motorola is incapable of making a more desirable device than the rest of the players out there if they don't have their radio advantages. It's kind like saying, "Yeah, our devices are less desirable than our competitors, except when it comes to fringe radio reception!". Basically we are dead in the water if we lose this one advantage. Guess it's true though as Samsung is schooling Moto big time while being pretty darn weak in this particular category and customers aren't totally stupid so Samsung is obviously more desirable in most other respects of smartphone design as most would like a device that gets great reception and works really well as a phone, but are sacrificing that for the Samsung.

    As for the rest of what you said on blur type development. That's part of my problem with it all. I wish it were NOT such low level tweaking so that updates could be faster. I would be MUCH happier with very straight forward skins that only did skinning type things and didn't add feature sets that require framework changes and new API's and the like. What percentage of android developers pay any attention at all to Motorola specific API's other than Motorola themselves? As to the stability point I have no clue what the issues are there as I have only ever used mostly vanilla android builds and have had very little stability issues. This includes GNex ICS stuff and all variety of OG Droid roms from Motorola stock to various custom builds with the custom ROMs on OG Droid being some of the most stable and fast. Motorola did help in the OG stuff a lot as some of the proprietary stock upgrades helped the custom roms more than any of the development did, but that is all stuff they have no ability to mod anyhow other than through hacks.

    And I wasn't talking about making upgrades more like apps. I was talking about making the Motorola software experience more like apps so that the Kernel and framework and lower level system stuff was the ONLY thing that needed to be upgraded. Doesn't really matter though as blur really does want to be way more than a skin. I will still prefer cyanogen mod or other stuff over it usually though so in the end all I want is an unlocked bootloader so I don't have to rely on very unsafe hacking and odd work arounds just to use such builds. I want all my computing devices to be like those I first got into computing on in that they were open and able to run any compatible system on them I might want to try.

    As for carrier testing, that is something I would like to see ALL OEM's pressure carriers over more. I would like to see ALL OEMs dictate devices and software to the the carriers more and also MORE unlocked and open devices that aren't even marketed through the carrier AT ALL, but are compatible with the carriers network as was the idea behind a lot of the 700mhz spectrum rules.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortSxit View Post
    I don't know anything about ICS (being that I have a TBolt), but I remember reading a while back that a lot of the features from various manufacturers' UIs would be redundant/obsolete come ICS. Is that what your referring to?
    I remember reading it from some of the gadget/mobile blogs on my Google Reader around six-ish months ago. They said something, which was quickly recanted as being "misunderstood" and then the whole thing went away quickly forgotten just like they all prefer. When I heard HTC was scaling back, I couldn't believe my eyes but then remembered about that episode and connected the two dots.

    I'll see if I can search out one or two of the articles and link up when I have some time to research it.

    --Kidd

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