T-Mobile is deploying 1900MHz HSPA/4G

[Jordan T]

Umm, nokiatemp, I honestly can barely understand your post.

3G (UMTS) is used for both voice and data. Capacity, not coverage, for 2G (GSM) will need to be reduced to make room for 3G (UMTS) in the 1900/PCS band. As most usage transitions to 3G devices, this will not be an issue - the GSM/2G network was built for a time it handled most of the load. It doesn't today.

Most phones don't have a "3G only" setting, unfortunately. I don't know what you mean by forcefully use 3G. Please elaborate.

Your last paragraph is especially hard to understand for me, so I apologize if I don't answer your question, but it appears you're asking if the re-farming will allow UMTS1900 devices, and if it will render UMTS1700 devices useless or GSM-only. The answer is a definite yes to the first, and apparently no to the second.

Previously T-Mobile used:

PCS band: GSM

AWS band: UMTS

Now, T-mobile will use:

PCS band: GSM, UMTS
AWS band: UMTS, LTE

The question will be, at the end of this, will there be full dual-band (PCS and AWS) UMTS and the complete GSM coverage that exists today. The answer is - maybe not. If they have limited spectrum in one of the bands, hard choices have to be made. GSM could be discontinued in some areas, UMTS could be removed from AWS to make room for LTE in some areas, etc. But for the most part, expect the GSM coverage that exists today to remain as-is, and expect today's UMTS devices (including AWS-only) to remain functional where they do today. New coverage, of course, is up in the air.

[nokiatemp]

I apologize, I wrote it in a rush. So apparently, full usage of PCS HSPA is a speculation correct? It may happen in the near future as well as AWS LTE being fully implemented eventually wiping out AWS HSPA. As of now the sharing between 2G and HSPA (3G) will differ between cities and markets and it will be a hit or miss. The matter here is to decide on a phone that will be useful for many years and not consider it outdated such as the G2, at least 100% of it and not partially in some areas since it is shared with 2G PCS. There are many Tri-Band 850/900, 1900, 2100 phones out there and want to make sure their full compatibility. Thanks.

[nokiatemp]

I know the accuracy of this is terrible but there is something we need to know. According to the AWS (1.7/2.1) graph in mid-2013, there will be a 50% reduction in spectrum in order to fit in the future LTE service. Does this mean there will be a reduction in coverage, cities and markets across the nation? Or an increase in density coverage (squeeze) for virtually no loss of 1700 HPSA users? This also applies to the PCS band by the way.

[Jordan T]

I'd love to know where you got that graph, but it's basically correct per my understanding. There will be *no* loss of coverage from that type of re-banding alone. What is lost is capacity, not coverage. T-Mobile has between 10 and 30MHz of AWS (someone correct me if I'm wrong and they have more than 30MHz anywhere), depending on the market. 10MHz markets are where it gets crunched.

Right now, they can run only a single UMTS carrier in a 10MHz AWS market (5x5). THAT'S BAD NEWS. For even one LTE carrier, they'd have to completely replace 3G. Any LTE in these areas will require AWS 3G/UMTS being shut off. Thankfully these areas are few.

In 20MHz markets, they can run two UMTS carriers today. Tomorrow they can run a UMTS carrier and a 5x5 LTE carrier, with UMTS1900 handling the second carrier.

In 30MHz markets, they can run three UMTS carriers today. Tomorrow, they can run two UMTS carriers and a 5x5LTE carrier, moving to one UMTS carrier and a 10x10LTE carrier in the future.

As you can see, that's not your graph exactly, but close. The only places likely at risk of losing UMTS in the AWS band in the foreseeable future are markets with only 10MHz of AWS holdings - but it seems more likely T-Mobile will skip LTE in those areas.

T-Mobile has TONS of extra 1900 spectrum, since GSM isn't much used now. Paring GSM capacity to a minimum and putting UMTS carriers in 1900 frees up capacity for LTE. T-Mobile runs on much less spectrum than Verizon or AT&T, and they use it more efficiently (more sites, better network tuning).

[danska]

I posted an fcc pdf from T-Mobile that had that. A week or two ago.

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[Jordan T]

Good to know, yeah, it's a good approximation of what they'd do, and since it's official pretty much proves that there is no danger of losing coverage for most customers

[Julian]

I think you will find these spreadsheets interesting (both courtesy of WiWavelength):

1. Current T-mobile AWS holdings in top 100 markets: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Md1gzMmc#gid=0

2. Leap & T-mobile AWS spectrum exchange (which helps T-mobile significantly): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FWi1IblE#gid=0

[GSMinCT]

The thing with those graphics is that, while basically correct in concept, vary widely market to market depending on what spectrum T-Mobile owns. Some markets may only have two blocks of each, others may have more. The more spectrum they have in a given market, the smoother the transition will be.

The other factor is that the vast majority of their GSM (EDGE) data use is unlocked iPhones, which are going to start coming in even more now that AT&T is unlocking their old ones, so when they turn on HSPA+ in the PCS band, those iPhones will all of the sudden have 3G data, and the majority of GSM use left will be voice/text, which is 5% of network capacity (based on AT&T's numbers for HSPA+). A 5x5 on GSM is more than enough.

In the single AWS markets, if they don't do LTE, those phones can still run on HSPA+ in one or other other of the bands, or if they eventually move to LTE, and kill UMTS, the phones that don't have PCS HSPA+ will fall back to EDGE on the PCS band, so no one will lose coverage and data entirely. My guess would be no LTE, as HSPA+ is pretty fast.

[DRNewcomb]

Right now it seems that T-Mo will reduce the 2G aspect under PCS correct? Does this mean coverage for voice will be reduced?

No.

Isn't voice calls made over 2G and 3G being data?

All calls, 2G or 3G, are digital.

If that's the case then why can't I switch my phone to 3G restricted only and why does it forcefully use the 2G?

that depends on your phone

Also according to Wikipedia as of this post,
"On February 23, 2012, during the Q4 Earnings Call, the future of the T-Mobile 4G upgrade path was laid out. T-Mobile's LTE network will be rolled out on the AWS spectrum, and their HSPA+ network will transition to the PCS band, in order to achieve compatibility with other networks and phones in the USA, T-Mobile plans to begin this transition in early 2013"
Is this a complete and full 100% PCS use for HSPA+ or partial sharing with 2G despite being the backbone for voice calls? Can I use such phone as the RAZR V3xx having 1900MHz HSPA? It seems that today's "AWS" phones especially the tri-band (my avatar) which total around 138 (as of this post) will be considered pointless since the transition is slowly wiping HSPA 1700 of the map including last few months worth of Nokia penta-bands having the extra 1700 radio. Thanks.

No, they are talking about using some of their PCS spectrum to implement WCDMA on 1900 MHz. I seriously doubt that you will see any places where there is a 100% conversion to WCDMA, at least not for a long time.

I hope I understood your question.

[GSMinCT]

Digital and data are two different things. UMTS and GSM both use circuit-switched voice, but UMTS can dynamically switch bandwidth between data and voice, and do them both at the same time.

Neither AT&T or T-Mobile is switching to 100% UMTS anytime soon. AT&T is a little ahead in converting, and in some markets, like NYC, they are pushing their own data customers to 3G-only, and only sell 3G phones, there are still plenty of people with 2G phones who don't use them much out there. There are also Tracfone and M2M applications that will continue on for many, many years on GSM/GPRS.

[DRNewcomb]

T-Mobile has TONS of extra 1900 spectrum, since GSM isn't much used now. Paring GSM capacity to a minimum and putting UMTS carriers in 1900 frees up capacity for LTE. T-Mobile runs on much less spectrum than Verizon or AT&T, and they use it more efficiently (more sites, better network tuning).

I think it would be safe to classify this as an overstatement. T-Mobile has between zero and about 45 MHz of PCS spectrum, depending on the market. There are a few places where they have none, at least that was the case in BTA #269 (McComb, MS). In many cases their PCS spectrum holdings consist of a single 10 MHz license. About half of Indiana was built on single 10 MHz licenses. I'm sure that there are some markets where T-Mobile has a much as 45 MHz but I can't name them right off. I don't think they have any more than 45 MHz.

Also, GSM is a long way from being consigned to the dustbin.

[terryjohnson16]

why cant they purchase pcs from sprint?

what is so different between the pcs band and the pcs g block? sprint has so much spectrum in that band.

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[GSMinCT]

Also, GSM is a long way from being consigned to the dustbin.

If you look at number of users. If you're looking at overall traffic, most of it is on 3G, since the users on GSM don't use a lot of capacity. So you need it there, but you don't need any additional spectrum depth on it beyond one 10mhz. AT&T is doing a 5mhz in NYC, since they have CLR.

[Jordan T]

GSMinCT, GSM doesn't use the 5 MHz (each direction) channels that UMTS uses, they're only 200KHz. So in markets with say, 15MHz of 1900 spectrum (7.5x7.5), they can easily do one UMTS carrier and the remaining 5MHz (2.5x2.5) of spectrum allows them 14 GSM carriers. Now, GSM carriers can't be reused between adjacent sites so that's not as much as it sounds like, but it's still MORE than enough to handle the GSM traffic they'll have once all the heaviest users are on UMTS (and UMTS-1900 will get rid of a lot of the heaviest GSM users - unlocked phones without UMTS-AWS)

[GSMinCT]

GSMinCT, GSM doesn't use the 5 MHz (each direction) channels that UMTS uses, they're only 200KHz. So in markets with say, 15MHz of 1900 spectrum (7.5x7.5), they can easily do one UMTS carrier and the remaining 5MHz (2.5x2.5) of spectrum allows them 14 GSM carriers. Now, GSM carriers can't be reused between adjacent sites so that's not as much as it sounds like, but it's still MORE than enough to handle the GSM traffic they'll have once all the heaviest users are on UMTS (and UMTS-1900 will get rid of a lot of the heaviest GSM users - unlocked phones without UMTS-AWS)

I was referring to the 10mhz chunks of PCS spectrum that are typical, yes that's true if they have 15mhz chunks.