ECF after contract extension without HUP

[bwalter]

I'm trying to understand what would happen in terms of ECF fees in a situation where the contract is extended but no new subsidy is added.

The scenario is my wife has just under a year left on her voice and data contract. I'm told her ECF would be ~$200 at this point. They've offered a retention plan but they say they can't give the discounts without a 2 year commitment. My question is if she signs up for this new 2 year commitment, how will her ECF be calculated since she isn't getting a new device and thus there is no obvious device subsidy. Or is it treated as an extension and the original ECF policy will still apply?

[bwalter]

I just called Rogers and they said the ECF on the new 2 year contract would be $25 per month remaining plus $12.50 or $500, whichever was less. Certainly not what I was hoping for, though I can't say it's unexpected.

[a1jatt]

What if you do HUP and get a $50 phone ?

[Bad Liar]

I just called Rogers and they said the ECF on the new 2 year contract would be $25 per month remaining plus $12.50 or $500, whichever was less. Certainly not what I was hoping for, though I can't say it's unexpected.

Call back and ask again. The rep seems to be mistaken/confused.

[bwalter]

I called back and after being put on hold for a long time, I was told it would be $12.50 any time because there was no hardware subsidy. So I told them in that case I was willing to extend the contract, then called back 20 minutes later and asked how much it would be if I ported my number out and was told it would be $12.50. Thanks to the new cancellation policy, I was able to turn a $220 ECF into a $12.50 ECF.

[B407]

I called back and after being put on hold for a long time, I was told it would be $12.50 any time because there was no hardware subsidy. So I told them in that case I was willing to extend the contract, then called back 20 minutes later and asked how much it would be if I ported my number out and was told it would be $12.50. Thanks to the new cancellation policy, I was able to turn a $220 ECF into a $12.50 ECF.

Lol won't be long before Rogers starts closing that loophole.

[migo]

Wonder how long it is before they're not allowed to close it.

Sent from my Lumia 710 via the HowardForums WP7 App

[ceredon]

Ontario has a bill pending. It has apparently passed 2nd reading, but has not yet been enacted.
Bill 5, Wireless Phone, Smart Phone and Data Service Transparency Act, 2011

A few parts Rogers will not like at all:

2. (1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to future performance agreements, whether entered into before or after this Act comes into force...
(2) In addition to the requirements for future performance agreements in the Consumer Protection Act, 2002 and the regulations made under that Act, a future performance agreement to which this Act applies shall set out the following information:
2. A description of any service offered at a discount and the duration of the discount.

(3) In a future performance agreement to which this Act applies, the supplier shall agree to do the following:
1. Remove, free of charge after the agreement expires, any technological or physical feature that restricts the functioning of the goods to a service provided by the supplier or another particular service provider.
2. Remove, free of charge if the consumer pays full price for the goods, any technological or physical feature that restricts the functioning of the goods to a service provided by the supplier or another particular service provider.
3. Alert the consumer when the consumer has reached 90 per cent of the service limit of any particular service under the agreement and is likely to incur additional charges as a result of exceeding the service limit.
4. Alert the consumer when the consumer is likely to incur additional charges as a result of attempting to use a service outside geographical limits, if any, that are set out in the agreement.
5. Provide the consumer with billing statements in paper form at no extra cost to the consumer, if requested by the consumer at any time during the duration of the agreement.

4. (1) A supplier of services under a future performance agreement to which this Act applies shall not demand, request or accept payment for services the consumer does not receive during a period in which goods provided by the supplier under the agreement are being repaired by the supplier, including goods sold at a discount or offered free of charge on the purchase of the service or services.
(2) Despite subsection (1) and subject to subsection (3), if an agreement expires and has not been renewed, the supplier and consumer shall be deemed to have renewed it as a monthly agreement containing the same terms and conditions that are in the expired agreement
(3) If an agreement is deemed to have been renewed under subsection (2), the consumer is not required to pay a higher monthly fee than the monthly equivalent of the cost of the services provided under the expired agreement.
(4) An agreement deemed to have been renewed under subsection (2) shall be in place for a maximum of three months, after which time,
(a) the supplier may stop providing service to the consumer; or
(b) the supplier and the consumer may negotiate a new agreement.
7. (1) A consumer may at any time, without any reason, cancel a future performance agreement to which this Act applies on giving 30 days notice.


So, Rogers will have to inform customers of the expiration dates of any credits or discounts, something they don't seem to always do now. They will be required to unlock, for free, phones bought at full price or that have had their obligations fulfilled. Properly notify customers at 90% of included usage to help prevent unintentional overage charges. Provide paper bills for free upon request. They will have to waive fees for service if the phone they sold you breaks, until they fix of repair it. If your plan (including retentions) expires and you don't renew immediately, your bill, including credits, will remain the same for 3 months or until you renew or cancel. They will now be required to accept 30 day notification of cancelation, something they require but do not allow. And all of this will apply to pre-existing contracts. It also includes the ECF policy that Rogers recently brought in, where the termination fees decrease over time based on the subsidy amount.

It's unfortunate that it takes legislation to prevent all these dirty little tricks (like requiring but not allowing 30 day termination notice and charging for unlocking). Hopefully this bill becomes law. It's no wonder Rogers made the small changes they did in order to try to get ahead of the regulations that are coming. Now if the governments would just get around to 3 year contracts. Surely someone in charge has wondered why only Canadian carriers seem to need 3 year contracts to do business.

Edit: Forgot this one:
(3) The consent of a consumer to amend an agreement under this section does not constitute consent to renew the agreement.

No more sleazy BS of automatically renewing contracts simply because a customer made a change on their account. If they customer doesn't say "yes renew my contract" it can't be renewed". Rogers will hate this if it becomes law.

[ceredon]

Lol won't be long before Rogers starts closing that loophole.

Wonder how long it'll be before it won't matter if they wanted to...

[bwalter]

So, Rogers will have to inform customers of the expiration dates of any credits or discounts, something they don't seem to always do now.

The fact that they don't definitely burns me. I already had ported out my line and when I was asking about it initially to try and get a retention deal I was informed that the credits from my previous retention deal were expiring. If I hadn't called, I would have simply found out on my next bill. Also, I wasn't able to negotiate a new plan that cost the same as my old one, and because the credits were expiring I couldn't just keep it without paying more.

The irony is I was told by more than one rep that one of the reasons I should stay with Rogers is their superior customer service. In my opinion, not being told about expiring credits, getting a different (usually wrong) answer every time I call or having to pay more after my contract expires, plus having them mess something up any time I make a change to my account are not signs of superior customer service. The retention reps are the only ones that don't seem to be completely useless but I shouldn't have to threaten to cancel my service every time I call in just so I can talk to someone that's competent.

[B407]

Wonder how long it'll be before it won't matter if they wanted to...

Once more and more customers start taking advantage of this loophole, I think they will follow Telus's route and make their plans available on all term lengths and MTM and not allow any renewals without a HUP.

[ceredon]

Once more and more customers start taking advantage of this loophole, I think they will follow Telus's route and make their plans available on all term lengths and MTM and not allow any renewals without a HUP.

The loophole is one of their own making and their exposure is limited to the length of existing contracts (i.e. once all existing contracts expire, this loophole no longer really exists). What they might do is to only allow early renewals with upgrades. If and when these laws pass, if carriers start reactively changing their policies to even more use what might be defined as tying or bundling goods and services they might be inviting closer scrutiny of their practices. They've been able to skate with pretty wide allowances as far as what they get away with, but actions that are viewed as punitively reactive to new regulations might attract attention that don't want.

[iridescence]

Smart reps are already not renewing customers even when offering credits, unless it's done with a phone upgrade.

[Rogido]

Smart reps are already not renewing customers even when offering credits, unless it's done with a phone upgrade.

On what grounds can they deny a customer's request to renew his contract. They have rules against early HUPs, but not early renewals. If the customer's account is in good standing, on what basis can they deny a renewal? The customer can file a complaint that he was discriminated against.

[iridescence]

Well, all the current bills and laws are developing to protect a customer from renewing, not make sure that they have the right to.

There's nothing in the TOS or elsewhere that I'm aware of that would force the company to have to renew a customer just because they want to. Explain to me why a customer should be entitled to this, other than that a lot of people enjoy the idea of companies losing out on money. That's basically what this comes down to, and I get that. I even think that customers who renewed just for plans on the old system should be able to do so. But that doesn't mean that all customers are entitled to that.

I mean, I'm a customer too - i have a smartphone. But think about it this way: with this new renewal policy, *any* renewal done after an upgrade, whether under the new system or old, is going to result in a cancellation fee of $12.50. Do you really think the company isn't going to protect themselves with a policy of some sort? They're giving us fairer cancellation fees, and people who don't get discounts can cancel for $12.50. They're going to protect themselves.

Like someone else said, they may eventually just move to a policy of no renewals without an upgrade, because otherwise what you are basically saying is that customers should be able to get a phone discount, renew the next week, and pay $12.50 for the pleasure of an iPhone or an Android or a Blackberry Bold. Does that really make sense to you, in all honesty? The big three are huge moneymaking corporations, yes, but saying this just heads us down the path of no phone subsidies at all, and a lot of people still seem to want/enjoy those.