Rogers Contract canceled....they want a Device Savings Recovery Fee....

[WorldIRC]

Kate will likely have to check with legal on that. She's not a lawyer I'm sure

[ceredon]

There are alternative routes they could take without getting legally muddy but with same effect. This route has CCTS disputes written all over it.

[alexanderdragon]

But at least, he paid less than his original contract ECF of $500.
And in an interesting way, the 213 is based on his original date of contract.
So i guess, the policy for rogers is even if your contract before the new policy, once you do a change on your account, then ECF apply to the new policy.

[eblend]

Hi eblend,

The changes made to our cancellation fees policy on January 22nd, 2012 were made to provide customers with more predictability in their wireless services. The new changes do not negate your previous terms but rather make it easier for you to know exactly what you will pay if you choose to end your committed term contract early.

In your case you would still be expected to pay for the hardware subsidy you received when you entered into your term in January 2011.

So you guys are backdating your own policy to fit your needs? How can you guys charge me a "Device Savings Recovery Fee", a concept that did not exist in this fashion in 2011, when I initially signed my contract? How is this value calculated? (don't give me the current calculations, they only apply to new contracts post January 2012). Your own terms of service state that new contract negates the old. New contract had no phone subsidy on it, because I never got a new phone, so as per your own terms of service, I shouldn't have to abide by anything the old contract tied me down to. With the new contract i don't have to abide by the old $20/month remaining cancelation, because it was superseded by the new cancelation policy, and this is the case. Why are some parts nullified while others are not? You are charging me $12.50 on this cancelation, so obviously I am on the new contract and new terms which supersed the old.

I am busy at work this week, but next week Rogers will hear from me and let the battle begin...again....like every other time I ever had to talk to Rogers...hence why I am no longer a customer after 13 years.

[Dredmoore]

I have to agree 100% with Alexanderdragon.

Your original 3 year cancellation fee as of March 2012 should have been either $500 (Voice and Data) or $400 (Voice) depending on what you signed up for under term.

You can resign for another 3 years instantly, no waiting period to change plan, feature, etc. There is a 6 month limit before you can resign and obtain another discounted device.

OP, Your cancellation fee is 50% discounted!!!!

Resigning after the new cancellation policy came into effect did not allow someone to resign and instantly obtain a $0 cancellation fee. It is in the terms of the new contract, spelled out clearly [not that anyone reads that far ]. Rogers would use the original discount and the new math of the cancellation fee to obtain the ECF. As it is ALWAYS lower than the original terms, it is a benefit to the customer.

Not sure what you are complaining about except that you thought you found a loop hole and found out you clearly did not.

[ceredon]

But at least, he paid less than his original contract ECF of $500.
And in an interesting way, the 213 is based on his original date of contract.
So i guess, the policy for rogers is even if your contract before the new policy, once you do a change on your account, then ECF apply to the new policy.

Sure, and I am not saying that customers in his position shouldn't have had to pay the ECF of their old contract when the moved to the new contract. But they don't get to make up a policy, after the agreements are signed, that entitles them to collect the ECF of the old agreement for termination of the new agreement. That was not a part of the agreement that eblend signed in 2012.


The fact is that Rogers did not charge the ECF, they waived it. That was their choice, likely because charging the ECF for renewals would piss off a lot of customers. But it was their choice. They cannot subsequently apply some completely different ECF to cancelations of the new contract. The old ECF would have been $500. The new one would be $12.50 + remaining discount on new hardware (not applicable in this case). So where is this new magical termination fee of $213 or $100 coming from? They just made it up. They pulled it out of thin air and are trying to apply to the cancelation of new contracts. Unfortunately for them, that isn't one of their options any more that eblend could pull out his own new clause stating that any cancelation of the contract requires Rogers to pay him $1000 and a free puppy. New contract, new terms, as per their own TOS. If they wanted to recover their subsidy on the previous contract, they should have done it when that contract was terminated.

[ceredon]

I have to agree 100% with Alexanderdragon.

Your original 3 year cancellation fee as of March 2012 should have been either $500 (Voice and Data) or $400 (Voice) depending on what you signed up for under term.

You can resign for another 3 years instantly, no waiting period to change plan, feature, etc. There is a 6 month limit before you can resign and obtain another discounted device.

At which time your old agreement is terminated and the new agreement commences. And, as per their own TOS, any terms of the new agreement supersede the old.

OP, Your cancellation fee is 50% discounted!!!!

And where, exactly is that documented in his old agreement? His old agreement had a cancellation fee of $500. They did not charge this fee when he terminated his old agreement and began his new agreement. They should have. They didn't.

Resigning after the new cancellation policy came into effect did not allow someone to resign and instantly obtain a $0 cancellation fee. It is in the terms of the new contract, spelled out clearly [not that anyone reads that far ]. Rogers would use the original discount and the new math of the cancellation fee to obtain the ECF. As it is ALWAYS lower than the original terms, it is a benefit to the customer.

You are correct, in that it should not have have instantly and automatically given them a $0 cancellation fee. That was Rogers choice at the time. They could have charged the $500, but they did not.

Could you paste the section of the TOS where it states that any termination fees (or other terms) of the old agreement will carry over and supersede the new agreement? If it is in there, then you and Rogers_kate are 100% right and I am 100% wrong. I don't see it in there.

Not sure what you are complaining about except that you thought you found a loop hole and found out you clearly did not.

The 'loophole' is no more a loophole than any other time Rogers choose to waive the ECF in exchange for a new agreement. This includes renewals, intrabrand ports and early upgrades. The problem for Rogers is that don't seem to have accounted for the fact that customers renewing under the new TOS would have to be charged the ECF at time of renewal OR they would have to explicitly state that the old fees carry over to the new agreement. I haven't see evidence of either, but again, it you can show me, I am more than willing to admit I am wrong on this.

[eblend]

Dreadmoore, please show me where it is spelled out clearly...because I am yet to find it. There is a post by someone in the same situation as I on Rogers redboard and he is having the same issue where Rogers is wanting this fee, yet not a single person he has talked to is able to tell him why this fee is there, and all he gets is "that's the way it is". If I saw it spelled out I would be fine with paying it, however I could not find this info, hence the post being made

Sent from my Lumia 710 via the HowardForums WP7 App

[alexanderdragon]

Sure, and I am not saying that customers in his position shouldn't have had to pay the ECF of their old contract when the moved to the new contract. But they don't get to make up a policy, after the agreements are signed, that entitles them to collect the ECF of the old agreement for termination of the new agreement. That was not a part of the agreement that eblend signed in 2012.


The fact is that Rogers did not charge the ECF, they waived it. That was their choice, likely because charging the ECF for renewals would piss off a lot of customers. But it was their choice. They cannot subsequently apply some completely different ECF to cancelations of the new contract. The old ECF would have been $500. The new one would be $12.50 + remaining discount on new hardware (not applicable in this case). So where is this new magical termination fee of $213 or $100 coming from? They just made it up. They pulled it out of thin air and are trying to apply to the cancelation of new contracts. Unfortunately for them, that isn't one of their options any more that eblend could pull out his own new clause stating that any cancelation of the contract requires Rogers to pay him $1000 and a free puppy. New contract, new terms, as per their own TOS. If they wanted to recover their subsidy on the previous contract, they should have done it when that contract was terminated.

So my assumption is his phone was contracted from jan last yr. If i remembr it right, n8 was $99 (from 449)
So his original term is until dec 2014
So (449-99)÷36×21+12~~~213
So i justt guess why is 213.

[ceredon]

So my assumption is his phone was contracted from jan last yr. If i remembr it right, n8 was $99 (from 449)
So his original term is until dec 2014
So (449-99)÷36×21+12~~~213
So i justt guess why is 213.

I think you are exactly right regarding what they are trying to do.

But, remember, that contract from last year did not have the variable ECF. That contract had an ECF of $500, period. So, when he renewed that contract was terminated and replaced by the new contract. They had, at that moment, the opportunity to charge the $500 ECF or waive it or amend the new contract to include a reference to the ECF or a portion of it carrying over to the new contract. They choose #2, to waive the fee. So, how can they now try to charge the $213? I understand how they are calculating it, but it terms of where it is contractually specified or agreed to, they are pulling it out of thin air.

Edit: I am not saying that what they are trying isn't fair. It is actually, given the circumstances. But, it is out of bounds of the contracts to which they have agreed. They don't get to do that. Just like us, they have to live with the ramifications of the choices they make. They don't get a do-over just because they screwed up.

[Dil_king]

They cant charge you the Device savings Recovery fee since it did not exist in 2011 Complain to the CCTS about this. Keep us updated on what happens

[eblend]

I will definatelly keep people in the know.

I will first try to see what Rogers has to say about it, and then go from there. I read the procedure for CCTS and should my first attempt with Rogers yeild no results, I will file with CCTS and hope for the best.

In the mean time, what should I do about the bill, pay it or hold off until a decision is made?

[Dil_king]

well if you hold off on the payment it affects your Rogers account but after certain days or months it goes to collection Im not to sure. If someone knows please pitch in or you can just pay the whole thing and then file the CCTS complaint and when it hopefully decides in your favour Rogers will credit your account and then you can just request a cheque for that amount since your account is closed.

[iridescence]

There's nothing in the new policy that says that if you renew without a subsidy after having a previous one that the new cancellation fee will suddenly be the new 'device savings recovery fee' instead. It says that either it'll be the dsrf based on a new phone, or 30 days + $12.50.

OP, I'd escalate this. Did you get an email with anything regarding the term when you renewed? What was stated in the email? You should be able to use that to your advantage. The representative shouldn't have performed the renewal, no, but now that it's done, they need to stand by the new policy.

Also, from Rogers.com:

Device Savings Recovery Fee (applicable to term commitment customers only for any new term entered into on or after January 22, 2012)

A Device Savings Recovery Fee (DSRF) applies if you have been granted an Economic Inducement (as defined below) upon entering your new term, and if, for any reason, your wireless service or your new term is terminated prior to the end of the term of your Service Agreement (Service Agreement Term).

It specifically says new term. Since the OP was not granted an Economic Inducement upon entering his new term, the DSRF does not apply. Seems pretty black and white to me.

[ceredon]

^Exactly.


I expect there to be an update soon, however, so this doesn't happen continually in the future. Luckily for the OP they can't apply that to his agreement either.