Help! Need definitive answers.

[ushneb]

It really is plain and simple. With Verizon Wireless, if you want to use a smartphone you have to pay for data. If you don't like their rules then don't use their service.

[Heavy Fluid]

It really is plain and simple. With Verizon Wireless, if you want to use a smartphone you have to pay for data. If you don't like their rules then don't use their service.

This information is not necessarily true though. There are some smartphones that are not mandated to use data. The Motorola Q, be it old, is one of them. The Microsoft Kin is another, and I believe that the Palm Pixi falls in there as well. Any of the newer smartphones, like any of the Androids, the iPhone, and all BlackBerry devices require it. If you want to use any of these phones, data is required. If you want to opt out, you would need to find a smartphone that doesn't require it.

[silver6054]

No. If you have phones with sim cards you just take the card out of your dumb phone and pop it in a smart phone. You're paying for a basic plan and can use the smart phone on wi-fi. That's what my brother did with one of his kid's old phones.

That's not always true. It takes time, but there have been numerous reports of people doing this eventually getting a text from AT&T (for example) explaining that they have helpfully added a data plan to the account because a smartphone is being used. So things work for a while, but then catch up! There are apparently ways round this, using a smartphone that that carrier has never offered (so they don't recognize it as a smartphone) but that can be hard, and not so very different from using an older smartphone on Verizon to avoid that data plan.

[Skuzz]

Very well put. No disrespect to the thread author but why is it that people expect everything for free, almost as if they are entitled to it? No one is forcing you to do anything. If you want a smartphone, you have to pay for the data, seems pretty straight forward to me.

I honestly don't understand why a surprisingly large amount of people think because something is the way it is, that is the way it is.

I know a few dozen people that would gladly buy a smartphone without a data plan. I myself would like it. In fact, my favorite method of prepaid was a carrier that let you have PAYG data for 1 day, pay when you use it, don't pay when you don't. That suited me very well. 99% of the time I'm on WiFi, I don't need cellular data except when on extended trips or whatnot, and even then I probably won't have 4G where I'm going. Unfortunately, that was a prepaid plan that didn't allow outside-core-network roaming, and the carrier's coverage wasn't large enough.

Why do they do this? Oligopoly is one reason. Second: Carriers force data plans so they can self-justify to their shareholders that customers want data plans. Then they can self-justify 4G. They're driving the market all by themselves, and for the most part, due to contracts, ETFs, and feature locks, there is no true consumer choice.

Sure, there are prepaid alternatives. I've used most of them to try them out. They work ok, but if you want a network with coverage that suits you (such as Verizon postpaid) with a handset you choose and features you want, you can't get it. Carriers like AT&T used to be an option, but now that they are doing IMEI-stalking plan-switching, you can't even get a postpaid feature phone plan without data and use an iPhone, for example, as they'll force you onto an iPhone data plan.

The other aspect: Feature phones have been completely commoditized. If you want a feature phone of good build quality.....they just don't exist anymore. This helps force more users onto smartphones (which again helps self-justify that smartphone use is increasing, justifying data network usage, appeasing shareholders that the course the carriers are choosing is the "correct" one.)

With the cable example others are using, there are now alternatives to cable, and though sometimes lackluster in comparison, they're growing fast (AppleTV, Netflix, Amazon VOD, etc.) Even Cable has more consumer choice than cellular, in that regard.

That said, at least it seems Verizon is doing a good job of putting at least some of this forced revenue to work, building out their LTE network at an incredible pace. So I suppose there is some benefit. For those who rarely use mobile data though, it's totally not worth the cost of entry.

[Sam73065]

I honestly don't understand why a surprisingly large amount of people think because something is the way it is, that is the way it is.

I know a few dozen people that would gladly buy a smartphone without a data plan. I myself would like it. In fact, my favorite method of prepaid was a carrier that let you have PAYG data for 1 day, pay when you use it, don't pay when you don't. That suited me very well. 99% of the time I'm on WiFi, I don't need cellular data except when on extended trips or whatnot, and even then I probably won't have 4G where I'm going. Unfortunately, that was a prepaid plan that didn't allow outside-core-network roaming, and the carrier's coverage wasn't large enough.

Why do they do this? Oligopoly is one reason. Second: Carriers force data plans so they can self-justify to their shareholders that customers want data plans. Then they can self-justify 4G. They're driving the market all by themselves, and for the most part, due to contracts, ETFs, and feature locks, there is no true consumer choice.

Sure, there are prepaid alternatives. I've used most of them to try them out. They work ok, but if you want a network with coverage that suits you (such as Verizon postpaid) with a handset you choose and features you want, you can't get it. Carriers like AT&T used to be an option, but now that they are doing IMEI-stalking plan-switching, you can't even get a postpaid feature phone plan without data and use an iPhone, for example, as they'll force you onto an iPhone data plan.

The other aspect: Feature phones have been completely commoditized. If you want a feature phone of good build quality.....they just don't exist anymore. This helps force more users onto smartphones (which again helps self-justify that smartphone use is increasing, justifying data network usage, appeasing shareholders that the course the carriers are choosing is the "correct" one.)

With the cable example others are using, there are now alternatives to cable, and though sometimes lackluster in comparison, they're growing fast (AppleTV, Netflix, Amazon VOD, etc.) Even Cable has more consumer choice than cellular, in that regard.

That said, at least it seems Verizon is doing a good job of putting at least some of this forced revenue to work, building out their LTE network at an incredible pace. So I suppose there is some benefit. For those who rarely use mobile data though, it's totally not worth the cost of entry.

Agreed, data plan requirements on smartphones is nothing more than consumer rape by the cellular carriers. The subsidy argument holds no water since all they'd have to do is offers tiers of subsidy based on the customer's choice of enrolling in a data plan. If you contract to maintain a data plan for the length of contract, you get the maximum subsidy, if you refuse data, minimal subsidy possibly equal to dumbphone subsidy.... It's really a very simple concept, yet the carriers have chosen to rape the customer by forcing a data package, even when unwanted.

[veriztd]

Enough already with the sob stories. Prepaid smart phones would be an alternative solution to the dilemma. Complaining about the big cellular carriers will not accomplish anything as it will fall on deaf ears with them.

[GSMinCT]

Verizon requires that their smart phones require a data plan - but your statement "a smart phone requires a data plan" is an artificiality.

That sounds like the words of someone who favors form over function. Are you saying SD TV is unwatchable? A "good quality" (as in content) SD show is immensely better than a pretty-looking, "poor quality" (as in content) HD show.

Everyone except maybe some T-Mobile plans require data on smartphones.

HD will not make poor quality content good, other than in the initial WOW period, which was like 5+ years ago now for HD. It makes good quality content look good.

This information is not necessarily true though. There are some smartphones that are not mandated to use data. The Motorola Q, be it old, is one of them. The Microsoft Kin is another, and I believe that the Palm Pixi falls in there as well. Any of the newer smartphones, like any of the Androids, the iPhone, and all BlackBerry devices require it. If you want to use any of these phones, data is required. If you want to opt out, you would need to find a smartphone that doesn't require it.

Would they allow you to do that? On AT&T, there are some that are grandfathered, but once something else is active on that line, they lose the grandfathering, and you have to add a smartphone data plan if you swap your SIM back into that phone (many WM6.1 and BB83xx phones were in this category).

I know a few dozen people that would gladly buy a smartphone without a data plan. I myself would like it.

It's called an iPod Touch. That is literally an iPhone without the cellular radios, GPS or microphone/speaker. I could see you having a point if you were willing to pay the full $650 of modern high-end smartphones, but not many people would. At that point, you're 60% of the way into having a full data plan for two years with a subsidized device. Smartphones are dependent on mobile data, that's why they exist.

The other aspect: Feature phones have been completely commoditized. If you want a feature phone of good build quality.....they just don't exist anymore.

There are a few that are OK. Also, Ebay has tons of phones on it for cheap. The carriers definitely advertise smartphones a lot more, but there isn't a giant conspiracy to push dumbphone users away, they still have dumbphones around, they still sell them, and they will sell whatever customers want. Part of the reason they have a limited selection, is that much of the dumbphone crowd has migrated to prepaid, and the high-value users are mostly rockin smartphones.

[ShortSxit]

Would they allow you to do that? On AT&T, there are some that are grandfathered, but once something else is active on that line, they lose the grandfathering, and you have to add a smartphone data plan if you swap your SIM back into that phone (many WM6.1 and BB83xx phones were in this category).

Yes, they'll allow you to do that. You can use PAYG data with a data block for smartphones that were released before December 2007.

[kupe]

Agreed, data plan requirements on smartphones is nothing more than consumer rape by the cellular carriers. The subsidy argument holds no water since all they'd have to do is offers tiers of subsidy based on the customer's choice of enrolling in a data plan. If you contract to maintain a data plan for the length of contract, you get the maximum subsidy, if you refuse data, minimal subsidy possibly equal to dumbphone subsidy.... It's really a very simple concept, yet the carriers have chosen to rape the customer by forcing a data package, even when unwanted.

What I don't understand is how they can require a data package on a full-price phone and charge the same monthly rate as a subsidized phone. Clearly this is a ripoff on Verizon's part, or they feel that having the freedom to drop service at any time should come with a premium cost.

[Heavy Fluid]

I don't understand why some people seem to struggle with the fact that Verizon requires a data plan on almost all smart phones.

[GSMinCT]

What I don't understand is how they can require a data package on a full-price phone and charge the same monthly rate as a subsidized phone. Clearly this is a ripoff on Verizon's part, or they feel that having the freedom to drop service at any time should come with a premium cost.

They want the contract. Basically, contract or get lost.

[VZdubFTW]

This conversation is getting nowhere. Verizon is the largest US carrier, they have plenty of customers willing to pay for the data on their smartphones. At the end of the day, that's all that they care about. While I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel the same way as you and don't believe they should have to pay for data, there are plenty more who are willing to pay. Since plan's are in fact getting more expensive as time goes on, I wouldn't hold my breath in hopes of them removing the requirement or at least backing down the cost.

[Sam73065]

What I don't understand is how they can require a data package on a full-price phone and charge the same monthly rate as a subsidized phone. Clearly this is a ripoff on Verizon's part, or they feel that having the freedom to drop service at any time should come with a premium cost.

Quite simply they don't care, they'd rather rape the consumer, esp. knowing that the vast majority will buy a subsidized phone and accept a contract. I'd prefer to see carriers get out of the subsidy business, but the requirement for data plans, esp on consumers out of contract or whom have not accepted a subsidy in the purchase of their phone is nothing more than rape of the customer's bank account.

I don't understand why some people seem to struggle with the fact that Verizon requires a data plan on almost all smart phones.

So you suggest we lay back and enjoy it? It's quite simple really, if your contract is up or you pay cash for the phone, there is no honest or moral justification for requiring a data plan. It's pure rapacious greed.

They want the contract. Basically, contract or get lost.

Exactly, they want to keep the customers in contract as long as possible. Still there is no reason other than greed to require data on a non-subsidized smartphone.

[Heavy Fluid]

So you suggest we lay back and enjoy it? It's quite simple really, if your contract is up or you pay cash for the phone, there is no honest or moral justification for requiring a data plan. It's pure rapacious greed.

I never said lay back and enjoy it. The data plan mandate isn't going anywhere, so if you want to use a smartphone, you should get used to it. Quite honestly, I am surprised that they grandfathered in some of the older devices. Verizon is a premium provider, and you pay premium prices. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to stay.

[GSMinCT]

Exactly, they want to keep the customers in contract as long as possible. Still there is no reason other than greed to require data on a non-subsidized smartphone.

It would be a nightmare to implement a system to allow some phones that were bought at full price to not have a data plan for a very few, out-of-touch, pissed-off customers.