$1400 BILL for ROAMING?! HELP!!

[ceredon]

I imagine profiteers selling water and food to disaster victims for gigantic markups......
I am sad for you, "Nobody Needs a Cell Phone" but everybody needs to eat and drink.

Sure they do, but it's just business right? As we have learned in this thread, a business exists to make money, so those guys marking up food and water are just doing the smart business move. Maybe they have shareholders that want the highest return possible. It would be their fiduciary duty to mark up their goods as high as possible in order to maximize profits. Their shareholder probably wouldn't want to have those lost profits paid for out of their shares, just as ircu said. Everyone might need water and food, but no one is obligated to provide food and water for a reasonable price. We aren't communists, right? Business is business, right? (Since it went over some heads, the example of the profiteers was simply to a)show how ridiculous blanket, thoughtless answers of "it's just business" actual are and b) that even the scummiest people on earth might marvel at what the carriers have been able to get away with)

But you sort of missed the point. This isn't about necessities of life. It's about business practices. Those scumbags that profiteer on food and water didn't create the problem, they are just profiting from the results. As sleazy as they are, they might be profiteers, but they don't even meet the definition of a racket. It's unfortunate you are unable to see that.

[alexanderdragon]

i always have trouble understanding why ppl roam in the first place, I normally just buy a local prepaid SIm , and put into my phone, and never worried about roam charge at all. especial now the ROgersone number thing, can help me to get all the txt received to my canadian number.

[some-gei]

I agree and do the same thing myself - but bear in mind that the vast majority of people are not nearly as knowledgeable or lack the technical ability to do such things, and the Canadian cellular companies make every effort to extort and gouge those people. Not to mention they lock the phones down hard to make it even more difficult.

[DataDude]

I agree and do the same thing myself - but bear in mind that the vast majority of people are not nearly as knowledgeable or lack the technical ability to do such things, and the Canadian cellular companies make every effort to extort and gouge those people. Not to mention they lock the phones down hard to make it even more difficult.

Yes, your latter point would be enough to prevent most people from taking that route. Most people wouldn't have a spare phone lying around to use, thus why phone locking is so lucrative.

[Eluder]

Unlocking a phone is not difficult, nor is it expensive.
Aside from the iPhone, every other phone is a breeze to unlock, and really costs anywhere from $2-$20, not a big price to pay if you want to unlock.

[Treatz]

Um I don't think so... I have WiFi on all the time when I'm at home, and WiFi is turned on even when my phone is in Deep Sleep. I'd have to set it to turn WiFi off when Screen is Off in order to be in the situation you described.

oh I think so, on the iPhone it happens as described.
On Android there is an advanced setting in Wifi to prevent wifi from disconnecting during sleep.

put your iphone to sleep, then wake it up in a few minutes..
see the 3G in the corner, ya that's data. in a few seconds the Wifi indicator will light up
now seeing as the OP has an iPhone as his avatar I'm giving relevant information about the iPhone.

[HC - NO "i"]

Treatz,

Yes, indeed. Turning off cellular data usage is a proactive way to protect ourselves from the hands in our pockets while traveling.

[ArjunG]

Everyone seems to be losing focus that EVERY carrier in the planet is, for the most part, just as unreasonable when it comes to International roaming rates. Yes, this is the Rogers forum and the focus is on Rogers, but really, the GSMA should really be getting involved, as the international body that oversees GSM worldwide, to help encourage better roaming rates.

As long as no laws are broken, I have no issue with a corporation charging whatever they feel they can charge for said service...myself personally will be getting a local SIM when I go overseas next month and my service provider may even receive a quick message from me as to why I will not be subscribing to their roaming packages. But just because I don't like the rates doesn't mean I am against them charging those rates...the two are very separate matters; and as long as there are enough WorldIRC's willing to not pay the Canadian carriers to roam, then perhaps in time rates will drop.

You hit the nail on the head on this point. Roaming rates are ridiculous, and seem like they are just put out there to take advantage of the misinformed. Sure we are on a cell phone forum, meaning we have an interest in them, and knowledge of the subject. Many people don't put a lot of thought into their cell phone usage, and a small bit of usage in international roaming could become amazingly costly. I feel they made this amazingly costly just to cash in on these people. It would be nice going international and not having to worry about buying a local sim card, and you can just continue to use your own for a decent rate. At the end of the day, you're still connected to the same local network.

[ceredon]

You hit the nail on the head on this point. Roaming rates are ridiculous, and seem like they are just put out there to take advantage of the misinformed. Sure we are on a cell phone forum, meaning we have an interest in them, and knowledge of the subject. Many people don't put a lot of thought into their cell phone usage, and a small bit of usage in international roaming could become amazingly costly. I feel they made this amazingly costly just to cash in on these people. It would be nice going international and not having to worry about buying a local sim card, and you can just continue to use your own for a decent rate. At the end of the day, you're still connected to the same local network.

While all carriers do look to roaming as a profit centre, it is interesting to see how they differ from one another.

Roaming rates: Rogers has the highest roaming rates of any carrier in Canada. Telus has reduced their roaming rates, in some cases, by 80% over the last year or so.
Locking: Rogers wil unlock your phone once it is out of contract (and so 3 years old) and you pay $50. Telus will unlock you phone after 90 days for $50.

So, Telus makes it easier to avoid roaming fees by having a sane unlocking policy and if you do choose to roam they have far more reasonable roaming rates. I guess Rogers figures they need to do everything they can to make roaming more likely and more profitable even if their customer don't want to roam but want to use their phones.

It's a little sad to see a company have to reply on having artificially captive market. Sadder that they then profiteer so easily upon that captive market.

[some-gei]

I think it goes without saying that what Rogers charges for roaming, and the lengths they do to extort the money out of their customers (ie locking phones and not providing the unlock codes) is nothing short of appalling.

What really disturbs me is how people, even in this very thread, actually defend and even encourage this. People with that mentality only prolong the length of time we have to wait before Rogers starts to reduce rates.

[turbogeek]

You hit the nail on the head on this point. Roaming rates are ridiculous, and seem like they are just put out there to take advantage of the misinformed. Sure we are on a cell phone forum, meaning we have an interest in them, and knowledge of the subject. Many people don't put a lot of thought into their cell phone usage, and a small bit of usage in international roaming could become amazingly costly. I feel they made this amazingly costly just to cash in on these people. It would be nice going international and not having to worry about buying a local sim card, and you can just continue to use your own for a decent rate. At the end of the day, you're still connected to the same local network.

I highly doubt the plan is to entrap 'small fry' consumers with outrageous bills, as that only serves to anger and drive away customers. Their intention is to milk as much as possible from international business users for whom the value of having such easy roaming outweighs the costs, or the hassle of managing alternatives. And, roaming is a 2-way partnership; both carriers benefit from having high roaming rates, so they share in the guilt. Telus is perhaps starting to shift their emphasis in the profit/volume ratio, but the new entrants are likely responsible for that.

[ceredon]

I highly doubt the plan is to entrap 'small fry' consumers with outrageous bills, as that only serves to anger and drive away customers. Their intention is to milk as much as possible from international business users for whom the value of having such easy roaming outweighs the costs, or the hassle of managing alternatives. And, roaming is a 2-way partnership; both carriers benefit from having high roaming rates, so they share in the guilt. Telus is perhaps starting to shift their emphasis in the profit/volume ratio, but the new entrants are likely responsible for that.

If that were true, they would have no reason to lock the phones. Those same business customers willing to pay so richly for the convenience or roaming would continue to do so, locked or unlocked as the convenience would be the same. The locking only helps to ensure those who would look for alternatives cannot do so with their own existing phones. "Entrap" actually is not a bad word at all.

As far as both carriers being guilty, the domestic carriers are responsible for the majority of the customer price through insane markups. Rogers has the longest standing agreements with international GSM carriers and is the biggest carrier, so at best, Telus is paying the same that Rogers does, possibly much more. Yet Telus were able to drop their rates as much as 80% and still remain very profitable with roaming, so that gives you an idea, at a minimum, how large a portion of the rates Rogers is directly responsible for...at least 4/5 of their price is markup on top of what the international carriers are charging them. I would guess it is closer to 9/10.

Fun game of what if: imagine if they tried the same scam domestically. Imagine if even the smallest, most trivial overage resulted in a $1000 bill or $5000 or $15000. People, I hope, would recognize that there was a problem, perhaps even recognize that as not being right. Somehow these same people have swallowed the carrier line that roaming is vastly different, that it someone justifies the unjustified.

[turbogeek]

If that were true, they would have no reason to lock the phones.

Locking phones greatly increases the chances a carrier will continue to profit from the device over its useful life, thus a business case exists for it irrespective of roaming.

As far as both carriers being guilty, the domestic carriers are responsible for the majority of the customer price through insane markups. Rogers has the longest standing agreements with international GSM carriers and is the biggest carrier, so at best, Telus is paying the same that Rogers does, possibly much more. Yet Telus were able to drop their rates as much as 80% and still remain very profitable with roaming, so that gives you an idea, at a minimum, how large a portion of the rates Rogers is directly responsible for...at least 4/5 of their price is markup on top of what the international carriers are charging them. I would guess it is closer to 9/10.

Telus's PPU US data rate is $5/MB (http://www.telusmobility.com/en/ON/c...ckages.shtml); Rogers', $10.24 (http://www.rogers.com/business/on/en...ogers/roaming/). Telus's shifting strategy only tells us their business analysts think they can make more money overall by the volume increase it's expected to bring. Also, the Telus/Bell network is arguably larger & more advanced, potentially commanding a better rate. AT&T's Canadian roaming rate is $15.36 (http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/in...d-packages.jsp), so carrier size and long standing agreements aren't necessarily a significant factor. We can speculate all we want about the actual profit division, but that's all it is; speculation. By reciprocating high roaming rates, however, both carriers profit handsomely, thus mutual guilt.

Fun game of what if: imagine if they tried the same scam domestically. Imagine if even the smallest, most trivial overage resulted in a $1000 bill or $5000 or $15000. People, I hope, would recognize that there was a problem, perhaps even recognize that as not being right. Somehow these same people have swallowed the carrier line that roaming is vastly different, that it someone justifies the unjustified.

I'm not sure who's said it's justified, I just assert it isn't done to intentionally bankrupt the little guy. Others in this thread have stated: data roaming is opt-in, not opt-out, and with on device warnings. Roaming rates are set to profiteer on the backs of oil execs & the like who are too busy making too much money to really care, and to make the handful of minutes/MB most pleasure travelers use 'worthwhile'.

In Europe the EU found it necessary to intervene as carriers ignored repeated warnings to change their ways. It may well take that here, but our cartography (also, border-range grace policies) doesn't highlight the issue like theirs, unfortunately. Until then, vote with your wallet and opt not to use it. Better yet, switch to a carrier with more favorable policies, and inform the retention department why as you leave.

[clarken555]

I am starting to think this post was started by someone who wanted to give people a bash big business thread. As someone who travels a lot, I would love to have cheaper rates and save money but I have never come home to an unexpected bill. Of the millions of people who travel each year. Why is it only a few morons end up with the crazy bills? They end up in the media and the telco always seem to cut them a deal for their stupidity. Even my 75 year old mother who knows nothing about cellphones except to make calls, know that when she is out of the country she limit her usage because she will have to pay more.

[Bad Liar]

I am starting to think this post was started by someone who wanted to give people a bash big business thread. As someone who travels a lot, I would love to have cheaper rates and save money but I have never come home to an unexpected bill. Of the millions of people who travel each year. Why is it only a few morons end up with the crazy bills? They end up in the media and the telco always seem to cut them a deal for their stupidity. Even my 75 year old mother who knows nothing about cellphones except to make calls, know that when she is out of the country she limit her usage because she will have to pay more.

You'd be surprised at how often people call up with roaming disputes. Happens all the time.