New $200 Wind Promo

[icemasta]

Why? Everything in Wind's quarterly reports says this; numbers are released for both types of clients. Wind executives have said this.

They do not publish churn numbers but there were dozens of people on this board playing tricks using prepaid accounts. It is also far far easier to walk away from prepaid without automatic recurring refills.

What makes you speculate with zero evidence that this isn't true?


Wind even tried it the other way for probably far too long.

Postpaid, pre-authorized payments, and on a tab or contract is a winning combination.

I never stated that postpaid doesn't provide a good portion of revenue, but I was stating that prepaid brings its fair share too from the reasons I stated.

However thinking ahead, the numbers Wind provided provide no background information. Tony said prepaid ARPU is lower but he never mentioned if it included Pay Your Way customers which will definitely erode prepaid ARPU. Also it would make sense for Wind's postpaid ARPU to be higher considering they pretty much force a customer into picking the a min. $40 (used to be $45) plan to get a reasonable subsidy.

All I was saying was that there is a large and profitable market in prepaid, it's just that I feel Wind didn't do a good job to capitalize on it and gave up in solely focusing on postpaid.

[will888]

I agree with those who say the service is reasonably priced. Sure, everyone would love it even more if the price went lower and we will never be completely satisfied on cost until it becomes free.

The real deal killer is the horrible service, followed by non existent customer service when something goes wrong. From my experiences, it appears to be a mix of inadequately trained staff being thrown in the path of irate customers and the lack of empowerment of front line staff to take actions to deal with issues. Consequently, all front line staff can do is issue ticket numbers. Those tickets eventually end up in the round file. If only the folks in the corner offices would pull their heads out of their ar$e$ and come to the realization that churn affects more than the customers that leave.

As for the iPhone, I would say be careful what you ask for. The hardware cost is so high that invariably subsidies are required to get people to buy them. Everyone pays for those subsidies, even the folks who do get a iPhone. I believe the wintab already adds substantially to the monthly plan cost. I bet if that if wintab was eliminated, wind could literally compete step for step with Mobilicity's sales.

[UnlockedCDN]

My bet is the pay as you go will be the only prepaid service and if you want the $25 and $40 plans you must go postpaid.

Just a guess, but I think its a good one.

[beachlover333]

I bet if that if wintab was eliminated, wind could literally compete step for step with Mobilicity's sales.

I'll take that bet. Windtab was only brought out later in Wind's life. So you are saying bring it back to the way it was....when all we had were postings about a lack of phone subsidy.

As far as step for step with Mobilicity, I know all your postings have been bashing Wind, but really, you think Mobi's the leader here? With their unlimited data (oops, sorry,misspoke, unlimted browsing with "traffic shaping") And baby footprint home zones.

[will888]

I'll take that bet. Windtab was only brought out later in Wind's life. So you are saying bring it back to the way it was....when all we had were postings about a lack of phone subsidy.

As far as step for step with Mobilicity, I know all your postings have been bashing Wind, but really, you think Mobi's the leader here? With their unlimited data (oops, sorry,misspoke, unlimted browsing with "traffic shaping") And baby footprint home zones.

You call it bashing, I call it reflecting my experience with that broken company. I have offered disparaging words about Mobilicity as well where warranted. I will never be accused of being a fanboy.

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[rodtaylor]

However thinking ahead, the numbers Wind provided provide no background information. Tony said prepaid ARPU is lower but he never mentioned if it included Pay Your Way customers which will definitely erode prepaid ARPU. Also it would make sense for Wind's postpaid ARPU to be higher considering they pretty much force a customer into picking the a min. $40 (used to be $45) plan to get a reasonable subsidy.

ARPU isn't going to be the important number; it's churn.

Customers are generally forgetful and and lazy. If they're `meh` about the phone service and they can simply sit on their *** for it to cancel, they will do that.

If they're `meh` about the service and have to be proactive in order to cancel, it will probably take several months before they do so. If there are consequences (TAB to be paid out) they probably won't cancel at all.


Second, marketing and sales are really expensive. As I stated earlier, a typical acquisition cost for telcos is $150 per customer. So, a prepaid customer who buys the $25 plan ($25 * 6 = $150) who allows their account to expire has given Wind a grand total of $0 over the course of their service. In fact, it will still be a substantial loss because the customer will have used bandwidth, customer service, etc. which I haven't factored in.

Wouldn't be surprised if the break-even for the $25 plan on prepaid with no tab is at 10 to 12 months for Wind.

Yes, postpaid with tab for the $25 plan will be closer to 15 to 18 months; but the tab will hook most customers in for 36 months; making 17 months of profit.



Pay as you Go can be a better deal to me (for Wind) than prepaid monthly if the person top up for more than 1 month at a time. The 1 year pre-paid service is huge to Wind because they get to reduce their debt slightly which will be at a minimum interest rate of 7%.

They also don't market these accounts nearly as much; their acquisition cost for this type of account is much lower.

I have family members who have this type of account with Telus and Bell and after several years of minimum payments have hundreds of dollars as a positive balance on their account. Again, corporations make a minimum of 7% off that. As an asset they can borrow against it could be closer to 25% per annum from the positive balance.


Prepaid monthly with no lockin (like the tab) to me seems like a really bad idea from a business perspective unless there is huge demand for that type of product. It is far too easy for customers to cancel and control their expenses.

Wind proved there was not huge demand for that type of product (they do not have 25% marketshare) after 3 years of providing it.

[Tendenzi]

ARPU isn't going to be the important number; it's churn.

ARPU will always be important, it's also a figure that helps budget things and used to set goals like you stated about marketing and cost of acquisition. IF they had a higher ARPU that cost would take less months to pay back, and if the average life cycle of a prepaid customer is X months, they know how high an ARPU needs to be to bring in more money... etc. etc. (as an example)

Wind proved there was not huge demand for that type of product (they do not have 25% marketshare) after 3 years of providing it.

I like this one. WIND has proven a lot of things, and not very positive points either about our telco industry and consumers.

Next lesson for any other foreign investor coming to Canada who wants to do this. Buy out an existing player, make better roaming agreements, or set up an expansive and amazing network well before flipping the switch on, to avoid huge customer dis-satisfactions and negative perceptions to fight back against.

[Mr Mystery]

Next lesson set up an expansive and amazing network well before flipping the switch on, to avoid huge customer dis-satisfactions and negative perceptions to fight back against.

This is what Shaw should have done over the last 3 years and then lit it up once complete .

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[Tendenzi]

This is what Shaw should have done over the last 3 years and then lit it up once complete .

I think SHAW looked at the work load, the money and time invested and made the right choice. WIND/Mobilicity/Public are all going to be sold for a loss. Especially Public and Mobilicity.

[icemasta]

Wind proved there was not huge demand for that type of product (they do not have 25% marketshare) after 3 years of providing it.

Like I said before, I do think there is a large market for prepaid, it's just Wind did a poor job of differentiating and marketing prepaid and as you noticed it shows.

Offering a diminishing plan price, similar to Boost Mobile in the States, is a great way of keeping prepaid customers.

[rodtaylor]

ARPU will always be important

I didn't mean it wasn't important. But when looking at Prepaid versus postpaid; churn is quality that makes the difference.

Even if prepaid was $5 higher ARPU it can still be less profitable because it is suseptable to much higher churn.

Next lesson for any other foreign investor coming to Canada who wants to do this. Buy out an existing player, make better roaming agreements, or set up an expansive and amazing network well before flipping the switch on, to avoid huge customer dis-satisfactions and negative perceptions to fight back against.

Agreed. Videotron has done quite well by setting up a stronger network (less overall coverage but Quebecois tend to stick to their province). They've gotten nearly as many signups as Wind despite working with a much smaller population base and having much higher prices.

[rodtaylor]

Like I said before, I do think there is a large market for prepaid, it's just Wind did a poor job of differentiating and marketing prepaid and as you noticed it shows.

Whelp, when you have $1B to play with the market I would be pleased to be your banker but I'm not going to invest with you.

Offering a diminishing plan price, similar to Boost Mobile in the States, is a great way of keeping prepaid customers.

I believe you just proved my point about it being a niche market. A service which doesn't run their own network (piggybacks on Sprint) and has ~1% market share is not a great example.

That puts them on par with Mobilicity size wise but even Mobilicity manages to run their own network.

Boost also gives heavy discounts for long-term customers which shows that customer aquisition costs eat into a ton of their revenue too (Shrinkage plans).

[icemasta]

I believe you just proved my point about it being a niche market. A service which doesn't run their own network (piggybacks on Sprint) and has ~1% market share is not a great example.

That puts them on par with Mobilicity size wise but even Mobilicity manages to run their own network.

Boost also gives heavy discounts for long-term customers which shows that customer aquisition costs eat into a ton of their revenue too (Shrinkage plans).

Lets not forget we are in Canada and not in the US. In the US, you have A LOT of great priced feature-wise MMVO's, while in Canada, almost nothing which is why I say there is still a large untapped market. In terms of you talking about Boost's market share, when you have Straight Talk offering unlimited everything for $45 on AT&T/T-Mobile network allowing you to use easily accessible GSM phones or even Page Plus offering unlimited talk/text + 2GB on Verizon's huge network, I can't see Boost Mobile getting much business since their shrinkage starts at a higher price (compared to ST or on par with PP), you are stuck to Sprint CDMA phones, and until very recently a Boost user was stuck on the insanely slow Sprint 3G network (100-200Kb down speeds consistantly are very common on Sprint.)

I think your twisting my words since I said I liked Boost Mobile's shrinkage approach and was never talking about Boost Mobile in terms of their company and competitiveness.

[rodtaylor]

I think your twisting my words since I said I liked Boost Mobile's shrinkage approach and was never talking about Boost Mobile in terms of their company and competitiveness.

Your first sentence was "... I do think there is a large market for prepaid..." and you followed a bit later with the example of Boost. How was I supposed to interpret this phrasing if you didn't intend to support your thought with Boost?


With regard to your first paragraph; Boost prices (relative to resources give to the customer) need to be higher than Sprint because prepaid increases churn. I could swear we've been over that once.

The aquisition cost would be the same but the profits will be significantly lower because a customer will not stick around as long. Requiring effort on the customers part to renew will always result in higher churn than requiring effort on the customers part to NOT renew.

[icemasta]

Your first sentence was "... I do think there is a large market for prepaid..." and you followed a bit later with the example of Boost. How was I supposed to interpret this phrasing if you didn't intend to support your thought with Boost?

Maybe cause I mentioned Boost to provide an example of what shrinkage was...

With regard to your first paragraph; Boost prices (relative to resources give to the customer) need to be higher than Sprint because prepaid increases churn. I could swear we've been over that once.

Boost's prices higher than Sprints? You cannot get unlimited talk/text/data on Sprint for $55.