Bell/Telus LTE roaming agreement?

[WorldIRC]

From a usability standpoint, I was with HC on his adventure yesterday.

Speed tests and frequencies aside...when I tethered to my LTE connection, the service felt just as reliable as my home internet connection. It is this that the majority of end-users will care about and it is this that they've done a good job in doing -- providing a solid internet connection for use over the cellphone network.

[intlbizman]

intlbizman,

Greetings.

It is a Bell site according to the TAFL at Industry Canada (W0820 - 954 Bishop Street North, Cambridge, ON) and TELUS DOES NOT have sites propagated in the BRS or AWS spectrum in that service area. Therefore, the LTE footprint is offered under the network sharing agreement with Bell. This is one good reason to travel far away from the metro Toronto area. I have also compared with the Cell ID among the data sessions.

so this being a bell site means the spectrum is bell's? or telus'? or both? or we won't know?

[HC - NO "i"]

intlbizman,

Short answer: There is no doubt the BRS and AWS spectrum currently accessible in Cambridge, ON belongs to Bell.

Long answer: As I have mentioned, TELUS does not have sites propagated in the BRS or AWS spectrum in Cambridge, ON. Perhaps, in case you are not quite familiar with the current spectrum allocation / licensees, allow me to explain further.

Cambridge, Ontario is located in the Guelph/Kitchener service area (3-27) designated by Industry Canada...



This is the TELUS LTE coverage in the area...



This is the Bell LTE coverage in the area...



Notice the "up to 150Mbps" area in the Bell's coverage map vs. the "up to 75Mbps" area in the TELUS' coverage map... In order to achieve the Bell's ideal claim, it requires 20MHz of spectrum, 2x2 MIMO for the UE Category 4 while TELUS' ideal claim requires 10MHz of spectrum, 2x2 MIMO for the UE Category 3.

So how much spectrum have they got in the Guelph/Kitchener service area (3-27)?

For the LTE Band 4 (AWS), this is the Advanced Wireless Services (AWS) spectrum allocated by Industry Canada...



TELUS has 5+5MHz paired spectrum in the E-block while Bell has 10+10MHz paired spectrum in the F-Block in the Guelph/Kitchener service area (3-27)...

TELUS: 1740-1745MHz / 2140-2145MHz
Bell: 1745–1755MHz / 2145-2155MHz

Getting the spectrum license is one thing, whether or not it has been deployed with actual service in the spectrum in the area is another story. To find out more from the TAFL records, I prefer to use the Loxcel Canadian Cell Tower Map. Use the LTE sites filter, I have found none of the TELUS antennae in Cambridge is using the AWS band at all. On the other hand, all the Bell antennae in the same neighbourhood are Rx on 1745MHz / Tx on 2145MHz - i.e. in the AWS F-block.

The Cell ID 13844659, sector 3 that I have picked up was a Bell site: W0820 - 954 Bishop Street North in Cambridge, ON



When I used the TELUS LTE line there, the Downlink E-UTRA Absolute Radio Frequency Channel Number (EARFCN) was 2350... i.e. Downlink on 2150MHz / Uplink on 1750MHz in the AWS F-block, which is licensed to Bell in Cambridge.

For LTE Band 7 (2600), it lies in the Broadband Radio Service (BRS) spectrum allocated by Industry Canada...



Unfortunately, even the latest August update of the TAFL does not show any BRS site in used / deployed in Cambridge (it maybe due to the recent termination of WiMAX services; more on that later). Bell has also been notoriously slow to file with their updates... sometimes it takes a year! Yet, things with the LTE deployment in the BRS spectrum are not hard to sort out.

Remember those Multipoint Communications Systems (MCS) and Multipoint Distribution Systems (MDS) spectrum used to be licensed to Look Communication, Craig Wireless, Microcell? Through rounds of acquisition, Inukshuk Wireless has loaded up much of these spectrum licenses for WiMAX service. The conversions / transition to the BRS spectrum happened last year as Industry Canada prepared for the reallocation / auctions of the 700MHz and additional BRS spectrum.

Currently among the Big-3, only Rogers and Bell have got the BRS spectrum licenses through their Inukshuk Wireless Partnership. Together, they are holding 40+40MHz BRS paired spectrum in the "region B" (where service area 3-27 is and TELUS has NONE at this point). So Rogers and Bell are each entitled half of the BRS spectrum that Inukshuk holds, i.e. 20+20MHz. Then earlier this year, both Bell and Rogers have terminated the WiMAX service and begin to deploy LTE in some areas with their respective 20+20MHz paired spectrum. (Rogers has yet to deploy LTE service in Cambridge, even though it has got both AWS and BRS spectrum there.)

When I used the Bell LTE line there, the downlink E-UTRA Absolute Radio Frequency Channel Number (EARFCN) was 2850... i.e. Downlink on 2630MHz / Uplink on 2510MHz. Cell ID was the same 13844659, just different sector (8). I have tried many times with the TELUS LTE line at the same spot, but could not get on in the LTE Band 7 (2600).

[intlbizman]

ok... so basically this means the hardware / spectrum (AWS + BRS) belongs to Bell? And Telus is piggybacking off the AWS portion of it?

did you try HSPA on the same tower? or would it not be the same tower at all because it's HSPA?

[HC - NO "i"]

intlbizman,

1. Before we go on, let me ask you this... What does the network sharing agreement between Bell and TELUS mean in terms of their LTE deployment? MOCN and MORAN implementations are the crucial factors to "pool" the resources for their rapid build-out / expansion / deployment. Remember, this is just one town in a service area within the native Bell territory. Things will be the opposite in the TELUS' turf of BC and AB, where Bell's LTE service is more relying on the TELUS' site / spectrum outside the major cities. The only significant difference is that Bell has got the BRS spectrum while TELUS has none. I believe Rogers may have the influence in the Inukshuk Wireless Partnership that not to allow Bell sharing the BRS spectrum with TELUS.

2. Topic related to the HSPA is NOT within the scope of the discussion in this thread because UMTS/HSPA service is propagated in the PCS and Cellular spectrum - NOT AWS or BRS spectrum. The very Bell site has also got UMTS/HSPA (please refer to the Loxcel map) but so as the TELUS' PCS sites in the same neighbourhood.

[intlbizman]

network sharing means network sharing to me and i understand nothing more beyond that. lol i guess from your findings I was hoping to confirm / dig deeper as to what network sharing means.

my questions were aimed to get a better understanding which i think this far means Telus will use Bell's towers and Bell's AWS spectrum (because Telus is also licensed to use AWS) but not Bell's BRS spectrum (because Telus doesn't have BRS license)?

[maskediphone3GS]

Wow, very interesting info. According to the CCTM bell in Calgary has NO 1745–1755MHz / 2145-2155MHz, it seems they are all the telus frequency like suggested above.

Also, what seems interesting is that if you select bell owned, there are a few tower dots that light up in Calgary, so if I'm on Bell and trying to use LTE is it possible the telus tower could kick me off and a non LTE bell owned tower pick me up?

This is good stuff to know when only hours away from signing a new contract with either bell or telus.

[Tsebast]

Hello,
I have found this thread awesome, very interesting. Some really know what their talking about... Question? So if you go to the loxcell map in BC, let's say the kelowna area, there are no towers owned at all by Bell. So if Telus is transmitting Bells freq. from what I understand, does Bell need to have local licence? Either in the Province? Or perhaps federally? Or how is Telus permitted to transmit Bells Freq, to Bells customers for them? How does Telus and Bell compensate each other? Does anyone have an idea?

Thanks in advance?
Tsebast

[loxcel]

The Loxcel celltower map has been updated, and is now current to 11-Dec.

ps. very good analysis, HC - NO "i"

[sheytoon]

Hello,
I have found this thread awesome, very interesting. Some really know what their talking about... Question? So if you go to the loxcell map in BC, let's say the kelowna area, there are no towers owned at all by Bell. So if Telus is transmitting Bells freq. from what I understand, does Bell need to have local licence? Either in the Province? Or perhaps federally? Or how is Telus permitted to transmit Bells Freq, to Bells customers for them? How does Telus and Bell compensate each other? Does anyone have an idea?

Thanks in advance?
Tsebast

Bell doesn't need a local license. Telus transmits on their own license and broadcasts Bell's PLMN (network ID) along with their own. A user will see 2 PLMNs available (302-610 and 302-220) and can register on the PLMN that matches their SIM. This is all possible because the Telus site in BC has physical connectivity to Telus's core and Bell's core.

As far as I know, Bell and Telus have 10 MHz and 5 MHz licenses in AWS across the country that are contiguous, but Rogers is lobbying hard to prevent them from combining it into a single 15MHz block... which would increase max theoretical download from 75Mbps to ~112Mbps in a 2x2 MIMO scenario (assuming the device supports it).

I don't know what the arrangement is for compensation between the 2 companies.

[intlbizman]

I don't know what the arrangement is for compensation between the 2 companies.

maybe they will just merge. lol