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Thread: Verizon Complains to NAD About T-Mobile's Fastest LTE Network Claim

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    Fortunately Legere has decided not to back down and not to change the advertising. Let Verizon take it to court and T-Mobile can embarrass them there.
    That's not what happened though, they did in fact change their advertising to follow what was ruled on. They decided to use a different report than the one that was disputed, so their advertising will cite different sources. They did follow the ruling on the matter, so nobody would get embarrassed anywhere as there is nothing to debate in court. Now if Verizon wants to contest the new advertising based on the reports they are using now, they are more than welcomed to. Flat out ignoring the ruling though would of been a terrible idea, luckily they found a way to both adhere to the ruling, and get their message across.
    Last edited by ksych1; 09-29-2017 at 05:43 PM.

  2. #17
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    It sure does make VZ look like a whiny little "B" though, doesn't it? "Mom!, they said they were Faster! Make them stop".

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    Yea it's really petty, but it's nothing new really. It happens all the time. How many times have other carriers complained about Verizon advertising, or att. Att threw a fit over the Verizon there's a map for that ads a few years ago, I think all 3 carriers have had issues with sprints 1 percent claims recently. It's just part of business, always try to take down your competitions advertising claims. Most of what each carrier complains about the other one is petty if you really look at it, but with millions at stake they will continue with the petty bickering. Someone brought it up earlier and they're right, Verizon used to just ignore TMobile and it was Verizon and att filing complaints over each other's ads. TMobile should look at it as a positive I guess, it means they've arrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    That's not what happened though, they did in fact change their advertising to follow what was ruled on.
    There's no evidence that any advertising was changed. The first article just said, " NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network.”

    The second article said, "The NAD said T-Mobile had agreed to follow the recommendation." But T-Mobile never said they agreed to follow anything.

    Here's T-Mobile statement: "NAD ruled that the one month of crowd-sourced data we submitted (when Verizon launched their unlimited plan) could not be used,” T-Mobile said in a statement. “NAD previously recognized third-party crowd-sourced data as a way to look at network performance, so we looked at the latest results, and verified what we already knew! T-Mobile is still the fastest LTE network and we’ll continue to let consumers know that!”

    They decided to use a different report than the one that was disputed, so their advertising will cite different sources.
    Their report just says "we looked at the latest results". They didn't say anything about the results were from a different source. Nor does it say that "their advertising will cite different sources".

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    There's no evidence that any advertising was changed. The first article just said, " NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network.”

    The second article said, "The NAD said T-Mobile had agreed to follow the recommendation." But T-Mobile never said they agreed to follow anything.

    Here's T-Mobile statement: "NAD ruled that the one month of crowd-sourced data we submitted (when Verizon launched their unlimited plan) could not be used,” T-Mobile said in a statement. “NAD previously recognized third-party crowd-sourced data as a way to look at network performance, so we looked at the latest results, and verified what we already knew! T-Mobile is still the fastest LTE network and we’ll continue to let consumers know that!”



    Their report just says "we looked at the latest results". They didn't say anything about the results were from a different source. Nor does it say that "their advertising will cite different sources".
    You are neglecting the parts of the article that don't support your claim. It's alright, it happens a lot on online forums. You completely ignored this


    "Following its review, NAD concluded that the Ookla and Open Signal Speed test results in the month after Verizon introduced unlimited data plans might have had a bias in favor of T-Mobile and as a result did not support a comparative claim that T-Mobile has the fastest 4G LTE network," the division said in a statement. "NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network."

    The NAD said T-Mobile had agreed to follow the recommendation.

    Then the article said this

    But on Friday T-Mobile said it had additional, more recent testing data now and would not drop the claim. "NAD ruled that the one month of crowd-sourced data we submitted (when Verizon launched their unlimited plan) could not be used,” T-Mobile said in a statement.*


    It's easy to come to the conclusion you came to if you ignore those 2 statements, unfortunately they do exist. So the article does in fact state they agreed to follow the ruling, and it does say they will now use newer different test results as their claim for their ads, which would still adhere to the ruling. Nowhere does it say they ignored the ruling. They followed the rules. NAD said they can't make their claims based on the reports they were using, they agreed, and they decided to make the same claims but use different newer data reports as the basis for their claims. I don't think I ever said the reports were from a different agency, but if they are newer data reports they are clearly not the same ones that were decided on in the ruling. So they would be a different sources of information, a report from q1 and from q2 even from the same data collecting agency are indeed different sources. TMobile flat out said NAD ruled that the source we were using to make our claims could not be used so we found a different source. It could very well be from the same agencies, they likely are just more comprehensive tests. Good on them.
    Last edited by ksych1; 09-29-2017 at 08:32 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    It's easy to come to the conclusion you came to if you ignore those 2 statements, unfortunately they do exist.
    Neither statement was ignored, in fact I actually quoted one statement in my post. I also mentioned that only NAD said that "T-Mobile had agreed to follow the recommendation" but nowhere does T-Mobile say they agreed to do anything. For all I know, NAD could be lying about such an agreement.

    and it does say they will now use newer different test results as their claim for their ads, which would still adhere to the ruling.
    Has NAD said the newer test results will adhere to the ruling? I haven't seen NAD state that. If you have seen a NAD statement since T-Mobile's please post it. Otherwise I will assume that it's just speculation on your part.



    They followed the rules.
    When?? you claimed, "they did in fact change their advertising to follow what was ruled on"

    Yet you've provided no evidence that any advertising was changed despite given the opportunity to do so.

    TMobile flat out said NAD ruled that the source we were using to make our claims could not be used so we found a different source.
    T-Mobile never said they used a different source. They used the words "latest results" not a different source. That's a statement that you dreamed up.

    It could very well be from the same agencies
    And if it was from the same agencies it would be from the same source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    Neither statement was ignored, in fact I actually quoted one statement in my post. I also mentioned that only NAD said that "T-Mobile had agreed to follow the recommendation" but nowhere does T-Mobile say they agreed to do anything. For all I know, NAD could be lying about such an agreement.



    Has NAD said the newer test results will adhere to the ruling? I haven't seen NAD state that. If you have seen a NAD statement since T-Mobile's please post it. Otherwise I will assume that it's just speculation on your part.





    When?? you claimed, "they did in fact change their advertising to follow what was ruled on"

    Yet you've provided no evidence that any advertising was changed despite given the opportunity to do so.



    T-Mobile never said they used a different source. They used the words "latest results" not a different source. That's a statement that you dreamed up.



    And if it was from the same agencies it would be from the same source.
    Fair enough. I'll agree to disagree as neither one of us really know what the ruling specifically detailed and what reports TMobile is or isn't using. We both use the same article for our source to base opinions on it and we came to a different conclusion. But based on the fact they said they found newer reports that substantiate their claim their advertising would have to change. Instead of the *based on 2017 blah blah blah reports TMobile is faster than blah blah, it would read *based on and insert the newer more robust report or whatever it is that they say they have. That would be a different source of information, even if it's from the same reporting agency. Based on what I read in the article, this seems what they are doing. From what I gather from the article verizons complaint wasn't so much the claim, it was the report that they were basing the claim off of that NAD ruled on. Icould be wrong.

  8. #23
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    "Fastest LTE network" is sort of a misguided claim to make when it not only sources uncontrolled voluntary sources (speedtest apps) but fails to take into consideration any additional variables like number of users and consistency of speeds. Despite how petty it may seem I have no problem with Verizon calling this into question although T-Mobile is using the underdog approach in their marketing to their advantage exactly how they should and it's clearly working. Deceptive? Sure, but they've done a phenomenal job increasing the value of their brand and, for the time being, they can actually deliver in the markets that count, mainly due to the smaller customer base they have to serve.

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    Crowd sourced speed tests are very not very scientific. They are completely uncontrolled, and could be easily skewed. If 10,000 Sprint customers ran speed tests each day only on band 41, at 3am, I'm sure that would raise Sprint's over all network speed. But would it be realistic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimMcGraff View Post
    "Fastest LTE network" is sort of a misguided claim to make when it not only sources uncontrolled voluntary sources (speedtest apps) but fails to take into consideration any additional variables like number of users and consistency of speeds. Despite how petty it may seem I have no problem with Verizon calling this into question although T-Mobile is using the underdog approach in their marketing to their advantage exactly how they should and it's clearly working. Deceptive? Sure, but they've done a phenomenal job increasing the value of their brand and, for the time being, they can actually deliver in the markets that count, mainly due to the smaller customer base they have to serve.
    Fair assessment, but it's not like Verizon hasn't used deceptive advertising themselves. I can easily recall their there's a map for that ad campaign against att that they shown the full Verizon map, with both evdo and 1x coverage for Verizon and the map they used for att was just att 3g coverage which made att's coverage footprint look tiny in comparison. I would say that's a deceptive tactic. I have no issue with Verizon calling the claims into question, I do believe it's petty, but it's business. It's what each carrier does. They all use deceptive advertising to try to gain an advantage while the other carriers complain about each ones deceptive advertising.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    Neither statement was ignored, in fact I actually quoted one statement in my post. I also mentioned that only NAD said that "T-Mobile had agreed to follow the recommendation" but nowhere does T-Mobile say they agreed to do anything. For all I know, NAD could be lying about such an agreement.



    Has NAD said the newer test results will adhere to the ruling? I haven't seen NAD state that. If you have seen a NAD statement since T-Mobile's please post it. Otherwise I will assume that it's just speculation on your part.





    When?? you claimed, "they did in fact change their advertising to follow what was ruled on"

    Yet you've provided no evidence that any advertising was changed despite given the opportunity to do so.



    T-Mobile never said they used a different source. They used the words "latest results" not a different source. That's a statement that you dreamed up.



    And if it was from the same agencies it would be from the same source.
    Actually after doing some further digging on my own I do stand my original statements. As here is a more comprehensive article on the verdict.

    http://www.asrcreviews.org/nad-decli...graphic-reach/


    Which includes this line

    T-Mobile, in its advertiser’s statement, said the company “agrees to comply with NAD’s recommendation"

    So it seems that all TMobile is going to do is tweak their advertising some to comply under what NAD recommended, which is what I figured they would do. You can get the same message out with just a minor tweak of a word here or a source for your findings there. I don't think really either carrier won or lost to be honest. TMobile got the ok to use crowd sourced data and Verizon got TMobile to change their wording slightly. Seems like a wash to me. To me the biggest takeaway that TMobile said was this

    T-Mobile acknowledged that it does not have 99.7% of the geographic coverage as Verizon. To the extent that T-Mobile advertises comparative coverage claims based on calculations of covered populations, NAD recommended that the advertiser modify advertising to remove imagery that conveys the message that T-Mobile is comparing its geographic coverage to Verizon’s, and otherwise make clear that its coverage comparison is based on population covered.

    I think that's the first time they've admitted they may be stretching the truth some on geographical coverage.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    So it seems that all TMobile is going to do is tweak their advertising some to comply under what NAD recommended

    The article gives three NAD recommendations:

    1. "NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network. "

    2. "NAD also recommended that T-Mobile discontinue claims that its LTE network is “newer” than Verizon’s and that Verizon’s LTE network is “older.” "

    3. "NAD recommended that the advertiser modify advertising to remove imagery that conveys the message that T-Mobile is comparing its geographic coverage to Verizon’s, and otherwise make clear that its coverage comparison is based on population covered. "

    While they may comply with the second and third recommendations, they are clearly not complying with the first.

    I will re-quote Legere's statement: “NAD previously recognized third-party crowd-sourced data as a way to look at network performance, so we looked at the latest results, and verified what we already knew! T-Mobile is still the fastest LTE network and we’ll continue to let consumers know that!”

    Legere, in no uncertain terms, made it very clear that they are not going to discontinue claims that T-Mobile has the fastest 4G LTE network. They are not doing any "tweak" to their advertising to comply on this point as you tried to claim. Their advertising will still state that T-Mobile is the fastest. If NAD or Verizon doesn't like it, that's too bad. Let them take their next step. Legere is standing up to them and not backing down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    Legere is standing up to them and not backing down.
    Do you have evidence of this claim? Or is this something you think based on cherry picked out of context quotes? This seems to be your only source of your assumption. You just pick the one quote you feel validates what you are saying. If you take all the quotes though, and apply them to all the information available I believe it paints a much clearer picture than the one you try to paint. But if you have any evidence Legere said he is going to totally ignore NAD's ruling and continue with the same exact ads that NAD ruled against I wouldn't mind reading that. It would be an interesting read. You seem to totally ignore the first part of that statement from TMobile which says

    "NAD ruled that the one month of crowd-sourced data we submitted (when Verizon launched their unlimited plan) could not be used,” T-Mobile said in a statement.

    Which taken with all the other statements would lead one to believe they will not be continuing to use the same one month crowd sourced data that they were using before. But if you have evidence they are still going to use it please post that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    I will re-quote Legere's statement:
    In order to requote a statement by Legere he would of at first had to of made the statement.

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/feat...rizon-ad-spat/

    As you can see Legere made no statement at all as you falsely claimed. What Legere did do though is tweet something with a new slogan which I wouldn't be surprised if it does become Tmobiles new slogan going forward.

    America's best unlimited Network is definitely different than America's fastest Network, it seems to be their new slogan if you ask me


    So it appears they did tweak their advertising a little to convey the same message, as I said they would likely do all along.

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    I don't see how the "newer LTE" one isn't true. T-Mobile added all that vast Band 12 territory faily recently...

    Did Verizon do something like convert a large non-LTE area to LTE even more recently than that?

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