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Thread: Verizon Complains to NAD About T-Mobile's Fastest LTE Network Claim

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post

    If you think their network is so very slow, send your complaints to: [email protected]
    I'm not sure where this came from, I never said anything about the speed of the network, but I am very familiar with that email, I have used it a few times to discuss issues with various personal who respond from his office. I'll mention you next time and see if they know you though if a shout out is what you were seeking? If you need answers on network related things @nevilleray is a great source also. He usually gets back to you, device related? @askdes is a great source of info. Now that we got the areas where you can reach TMobile executives for answers to questions out of the way, I still disagree with you. They are able to say the fastest network and tweak their advertising at the same time. If you read the ruling in depth it specifically states that their findings are based on the 30 day results TMobile was using. All they have to do is use different results, which they said they had. For some reason you think it has to be one or the other, if you have a problem with them using different results and think they should just use the same 30 day results they previously used you can voice those complaints at [email protected] let him know how you feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by @TheRealDanny View Post
    Attachment 154271


    "We did say we'd comply with NAD's recommendation, and we will, but that means we won't rely solely on the specific data we submitted. We have taken the NAD's concerns into consideration and are confident we have robust data that addresses them and proves, once again, that we have the fastest LTE network," a company spokesperson told Ars.

    [/I]
    This is exactly what I've said all along. That they will follows the ruling based on the data that was submitted and ruled against, and just use different test results. That both complies with the NAD ruling, and gets their message across, it's just tweaking your advertising a little bit, and that seems to be what they are doing heading forward. Not sure why some people would argue against that. Makes perfect sense on their end to handle it that way. Why would they violate the ruling and continue using the same old ads with the same old data results? Makes no sense.
    Last edited by ksych1; 10-03-2017 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    All they have to do is use different results, which they said they had.
    No, that's all T-Mobile thought they needed to do. NAD never said they could use different results. I will quote NAD's recommendation from the article that you cited: "NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network. "

    It does not say that they recommend that they continue to claim that they're the fastest but just use different results. It says they recommend they "discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network." But T-Mobile said they're not going to discontinue the claim. T-Mobile said: "T-Mobile is still the fastest LTE network and we’ll continue to let consumers know that!"

    They clearly don't care what NAD recommends on this topic. They are going to keep claiming they're the fastest.

    if you have a problem with them using different results
    I never said I had a problem with them making the claim that they're the fastest. I advocated that they keep saying it. You're the one who stated, "I'm not sure TMobile would want to finance a litigation case when all they would need to do is change their wording some on their advertisements."

    Well T-Mobile agreed with me, not you. They're still going to say their the fastest. They're not going to remove fastest from their advertising even though you said they would. You, Verizon and NAD are just going to have to deal with it.

    This is exactly what I've said all along. That they will follows the ruling
    Right, you said that they will follow the ruling. The recommendation was that they "discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network." However they are not going to discontinue the claims. So they aren't following any ruling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    No, that's all T-Mobile thought they needed to do. NAD never said they could use different results. I will quote NAD's recommendation from the article that you cited: "NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network. "

    It does not say that they recommend that they continue to claim that they're the fastest but just use different results. It says they recommend they "discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network." But T-Mobile said they're not going to discontinue the claim. T-Mobile said: "T-Mobile is still the fastest LTE network and we’ll continue to let consumers know that!"

    They clearly don't care what NAD recommends on this topic. They are going to keep claiming they're the fastest.



    I never said I had a problem with them making the claim that they're the fastest. I advocated that they keep saying it. You're the one who stated, "I'm not sure TMobile would want to finance a litigation case when all they would need to do is change their wording some on their advertisements."

    Well T-Mobile agreed with me, not you. They're still going to say their the fastest. They're not going to remove fastest from their advertising even though you said they would. You, Verizon and NAD are just going to have to deal with it.



    Right, you said that they will follow the ruling. The recommendation was that they "discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network." However they are not going to discontinue the claims. So they aren't following any ruling.
    Sure they are. Read 3 posts above. They clearly lay out what they intend to do. They clearly state they will follow the ruling, and why they are able to make the same claims while following the ruling. If you have a problem with them doing that again [email protected] should solve all your answers. I think this is pretty much a done discussion based on Tmobiles latest statement. Unless you just want to argue it over and over again just to try to claim you're right somehow? Here I will repost what TMobile said.

    We did say we'd comply with NAD's recommendation, and we will, but that means we won't rely solely on the specific data we submitted. We have taken the NAD's concerns into consideration and are confident we have robust data that addresses them and proves, once again, that we have the fastest LTE network," a company spokesperson told Ars.

    So TMobile is lying and you are correct? I'm sorry but I have to call b.s. why would TMobile continue a over 6 month old ad campaign using over 6 month old data. Makes no sense. Im gonna trust their representative more than just some anonymous person on a message board here claiming they are lying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    Sure they are. Read 2 posts above. They clearly lay out what they intend to do. They clearly state they will follow the ruling,
    You've posted no statement by T-Mobile that they are going to discontinue the claim of being the fastest. Nothing. I've posted their most recent statement on the matter which said exactly the opposite.

    They can state they're following it, but everyone knows they're not if they're still claiming they're the fastest. The ruling said to discontinue claims of fastest not to use different data that they're the fastest.

    Even the article on Ars said: "Verizon could challenge the new claims and argue that the new data is also insufficient."

    And that's exactly what I said. If Verizon has a problem, they could challenge it again. But at this point T-Mobile isn't discontinuing claims of having the fastest network---which was the recommendation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    You've posted no statement by T-Mobile that they are going to discontinue the claim of being the fastest. Nothing.

    They can state they're following it, but everyone knows they're not if they're still claiming they're the fastest.

    Even the article on Ars said: "Verizon could challenge the new claims and argue that the new data is also insufficient".
    1. I never said they had to stop saying they were anything. What I said was it makes no sense ignoring the ruling and funding a litigation case when all they would have to do is either change their sources of data or change a word or 2 in their ads. Which apparently TMobile agrees and has done. You are the one who said I said they would discontinue anything. For what reason you said that who knows, likely to try to discredit me, another old internet trick.

    2. So again you are claiming they are lying just so you can say somehow you were right. This is another old internet trick and I'm sorry, I call b.s. I believe they are following it just fine as the ruling specifically stated what data TMobile can't use to make their claim, and I believe TMobile is no longer using that data, as TMobile as said.

    3. Yes, I said the same thing about 3 pages ago. I said the data TMobile is using now to make their claims wasn't ruled on, if Verizon had issues with the new data results they can file a separate claim against TMobile for it.

    Again, I'm not sure why this is still an argument, I feel TMobile has answered this sufficiently.

    We did say we'd comply with NAD's recommendation, and we will, but that means we won't rely solely on the specific data we submitted. We have taken the NAD's concerns into consideration and are confident we have robust data that addresses them....

    That answers everything about what we are debating. Not much else more to say about it really.
    Last edited by ksych1; 10-03-2017 at 08:31 PM.

  7. #52
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    Great video (with so-so quality audio) explaining drive testing vs crowdsourcing.

    https://www.wirelessweek.com/videos/...esting-methods

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    1. I never said they had to stop saying they were anything.
    NAD said what they needed to discontinue stating they were the fastest. You said T-Mobile would comply. T-Mobile said they would continue to not discontinue stating they were fastest.

    What I said was it makes no sense ignoring the ruling and funding a litigation case when all they would have to do is either change their sources of data or change a word or 2 in their ads.
    You never made a suggestion of changing the source of their data. That was T-Mobile's idea.

    2. So again you are claiming they are lying
    It's obvious they aren't going to stop saying their the fastest. So clearly they're not complying. If you want to call it lying, then call it lying. I'm just stating the fact that they're not going to follow the recommendation to discontinue saying that their the fastest.

    I believe they are following it just fine as the ruling specifically stated what data TMobile can't use to make their claim,
    The rule also said they had to discontinue saying they were the fastest. They're not doing that.

    It was T-mobile's idea to say we're using different data. NAD has never said they could use different data. Verizon never said they could use different data. This is just T-Mobile ignoring the recommendation to discontinue saying they're the fastest and to keep doing it anyway. I'm fine with them doing that. But don't try to pretend that they're complying with the recommendation when they're clearly not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    NAD said what they needed to discontinue stating they were the fastest.



    You never made a suggestion of changing the source of their data.


    It's obvious they aren't going to stop saying their the fastest. .



    The rule also said they had to discontinue saying they were the fastest.
    It was T-mobile's idea to say we're using different data. NAD has never said they could use different data. Verizon never said they could use different data.
    This isn't true. You're cherry picking again. NAD never ruled TMobile could never say they were the fastest lte network. That would be insane. What NAD did rule was based on the 30 day report TMobile was basing the claim on, they couldn't make the claim of being the fastest. They did indeed state they could use other data, as they ruled crowd sourced data could indeed be used to make the claim, they just had issue with the 30 day report TMobile was using in the ads in question. What the issue was I don't know, apparently some nonsense about Verizons deprioritized customers, but I'm sure TMobile knows and I'm sure the new reports address those issues as tmobiles own statement says they do.
    As far as Verizon saying what data they can use that doesn't matter, Verizon doesn't have a say in it. If it ends the debate I'll say we were both right really in the end. TMobile didn't have to end up changing anything and they still adhered to NAD's ruling. It's actually a win win.


    As far as me saying that they could change data sources I indeed said that. Gimme a minute and I'll find the post. Said it right here on page 2 of this thread.
    That's not what happened though, they did in fact change their advertising to follow what was ruled on. They decided to use a different report than the one that was disputed, so their advertising will cite different sources. They did follow the ruling on the matter.
    Last edited by ksych1; 10-03-2017 at 09:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by weskeene View Post
    I'm not a T-Mobile fanboy, but I think this was kind of a silly complaint from Verizon. Also, T-Mobile has deprioritization as well. So who's to say that some of the speedtests on T-Mobile's network weren't influenced in the same way.

    Now, if we'd like to discuss not using speedtests from uncontrolled consumer testing altogether, that's a discussion that would be good to have. I think controlled 3rd party tests are the way to go.
    I agree. It's Verizon's fault for throttling customers hard to the point where the network becomes not useable. Maybe if they bought more spectrum they wouldn't have that problem . I use their network too , but I'll call them out when they're wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    This isn't true. You're cherry picking again. NAD never ruled TMobile could never say they were the fastest lte network.
    I will quote their recommendation straight from the article you posted:

    "NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network. "

    Is T-Mobile discontinuing the claims or not? The answer is NO.

    What NAD did rule was based on the 30 day report TMobile was basing the claim on, they couldn't make the claim of being the fastest.
    And T-Mobile said, we've got some other data and so we're going to continue to say they're the fastest. It's just an excuse to ignore the recommendation. I'm fine with that.


    They did indeed state they could use other data
    No this is false. T-Mobile claims "NAD previously recognized third-party crowd-sourced data as a way to look at network performance" See the word previously. They didn't tell them to find other data now. T-Mobile took that upon themselves to use what was previously said as an excuse for ignoring the current recommendation.

    they just had issue with the 30 day report TMobile was using in the ads in question.
    You don't know that "they just had issue with the 30 day report". They could also have an issue with the exact report T-Mobile is using now. It shows you how little T-Mobile cares what they think because they are going to keep saying their the fastest.


    What the issue was I don't know, I'm sure the new reports address those issues
    You can't be sure because you admit you don't know what the issue was!



    As far as me saying that they could change data sources I indeed said that. Gimme a minute and I'll find the post. Said it right here on page 2 of this thread.
    That's not what happened though, they did in fact change their advertising to follow what was ruled on. They decided to use a different report than the one that was disputed, so their advertising will cite different sources. They did follow the ruling on the matter.
    Your own quote said "They decided to use a different report". As I said, that was something that they came up with, not you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    I will point out when you post incorrect information. If you don't like it, don't post information that isn't correct.



    I already stated that I advocate and support the ads claiming that T-Mobile is the fastest network that goes against the NAD ruling. So I will not email John as I have no "concerns" as you falsely claim.
    If I posted incorrect information maybe you would have a point. It does seem though you do have an issue with John and his team because you are accusing them of lying.

    "We did say we'd comply with NAD's recommendation, and we will, but that means we won't rely solely on the specific data we submitted. We have taken the NAD's concerns into consideration and are confident we have robust data that addresses them and proves, once again, that we have the fastest LTE network," a company spokesperson told Ars.

    So, if you need that email again it's [email protected] because the company seems to disagree strongly with your statements on how they should proceed going forward. Make sure you let him know you want him to run 6 month old ads with 6 month old points of reference just to stick it to the Man. I'm sure him and his team will get a good laugh.

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    "I'm sure him and his team will get a good laugh."

    Just like they'd get a laugh at the idea that that the coverage expansion (paper-thin or not) since 2014 has been only in "dust bowls" and has been to no gain and has nothing to do with the carrier's growing success.

    I'm just glad they have a real CEO instead of an armchair business tycoon like this calling the shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksych1 View Post
    Did those links have different points of reference than the ads that were called into question 6 months ago?
    Did the recommendation mention anything about points of reference:

    "NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network. "

    No, it does not. Nothing in there about points of reference. That something that you alone dreamed up.



    Still don't buy you claiming they are lying.
    I'm not claiming anything. I'm presenting the evidence that they are not following the recommendation. They have not discontinued claims that they have the fastest network. They're still doing it right at this minute.

    Nobody cares what you "buy". You can ignore the evidence all you want. But they're still claiming that they're the fastest, even though the NAD recommended that they discontinue such claims.

    It's a b.s. excuse people make
    No excuses are being made here. Just the facts. T-mobile is claiming they have the fastest LTE network. You have not once disputed that they are still making such claims.

    Haven't convinced me yet.
    I don't have to convince you of anything. As I said previously, the facts are the facts. They are saying their network is still the fastest despite the NAD recommending they discontinue those claims.

    "We did say we'd comply with NAD's recommendation, and we will
    Well, they haven't done it yet, now have they??

    You haven't shown anything that proves this is a lie at all.
    Sure I have. This screen shot from their website shows they're not backing down from the NAD as you advocated:


    Name:  Fastest.png
Views: 154
Size:  22.9 KB

    You're trying to argue that they're complying with a recommendation when they are clearly not. Note the word fastest is still in their statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    Did the recommendation mention anything about points of reference:

    "NAD recommended T-Mobile discontinue claims that it has the fastest 4G LTE network. "

    No, it does not. Nothing in there about points of reference. That something that you alone dreamed up.





    I'm not claiming anything. I'm presenting the evidence that they are not following the recommendation. They have not discontinued claims that they have the fastest network. They're still doing it right at this minute.

    Nobody cares what you "buy". You can ignore the evidence all you want. But they're still claiming that they're the fastest, even though the NAD recommended that they discontinue such claims.



    No excuses are being made here. Just the facts. T-mobile is claiming they have the fastest LTE network. You have not once disputed that they are still making such claims.



    I don't have to convince you of anything. As I said previously, the facts are the facts. They are saying their network is still the fastest despite the NAD recommending they discontinue those claims.



    Well, they haven't done it yet, now have they??



    Sure I have. This screen shot from their website shows they're not backing down from the NAD as you advocated:


    Name:  Fastest.png
Views: 154
Size:  22.9 KB

    You're trying to argue that they're complying with a recommendation when they are clearly not. Note the word fastest is still in their statement.
    Apparently according to TMobile they feel the recommendations do mention a point of reference as TMobile claims they have new data that meets NAD's recommendations.


    "We did say we'd comply with NAD's recommendation, and we will, but that means we won't rely solely on the specific data we submitted. We have taken the NAD's concerns into consideration and are confident we have robust data that addresses them and proves, once again, that we have the fastest LTE network," a company spokesperson told Ars.

    This is getting tedious though and I'm sure these people are getting tired of reading this. I feel Tmobiles last statement there pretty much ends this argument, and people are fully capable of reading all the data and all the comments submitted and deciding on their own. As for me I'm going to take TMobile at their word. What you do, is up to you. As long as you think you're right, what difference does it make if anyone else believes you or not.
    Last edited by ksych1; 10-04-2017 at 02:32 AM.

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