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Thread: MSID# Is different then my Phone #

  1. #31
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    No, iDen is more like GSM which is like ISDN. It's smarter than that. You register with the network and you are identified by something else, I think the SIM id. I think IS-136 TDMA also uses MSIDs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell
    Glad this thread came up ... I've actually been interested in knowing exactly what purpose the MSID serves, as well. Obviously it's for "internal use," but why is it necessary, and how does the call routing work with regard to the MSID/MDN pair? I'd like a dumbed-down explanation, if anyone has one.

    Are MSIDs unique to CDMA systems? I know iDEN just uses the PTN (phone number) and dispatch numbers.
    I don't think MSID's are limited to CDMA. But I *do* think CDMA's carriers have all chosen to use them.

    In short, the "regular" telephone system uses the MDN, the telephone number, to locate the phone by the carrier that it's on. The carrier (Sprint, in this case) basically keeps track of the phone by its MSID. So when the other party calls you, the PSTN uses the phone number to locate your carrier, Sprint matches your phone number with its MSID, and then uses the MSID to complete the call.

    I'm leaving out a lot, but that's the basic idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell
    Glad this thread came up ... I've actually been interested in knowing exactly what purpose the MSID serves, as well. Obviously it's for "internal use," but why is it necessary, and how does the call routing work with regard to the MSID/MDN pair? I'd like a dumbed-down explanation, if anyone has one.

    Are MSIDs unique to CDMA systems? I know iDEN just uses the PTN (phone number) and dispatch numbers.
    MSIDs are not unique to CDMA, and ALL carriers must use them.

    I used to be responsible for determining when we needed new MDNs and MSIDs for my markets and ordering them...

    Your MDN (Mobile Dialed Number) is your phone number in the sense that that is the number people dial to call you, this is the number that you can port from carrier to carrier.

    The MSID (Mobile Station ID) sometimes still called a MIN (Mobile Identification Number) is carrier specific. This is the number that is in carrier's routing tables that tell the switch how to route your calls and how other switches find you and send calls to you. This number has to change if you switch carriers.

    The MSID was necessary and created simply because of WLNP. Now that WPLP allows us to take our number with us from carrier to carrier, something had to be done to identify a subscriber as belonging to a specific carrier. The method of doing that in the past was the MIN (think of it as the MDN and MSID mushed together). All the infestructure for call routing from carrier to carrier was already in using that 10 digit number (routing was/is based on the first 6 digits aka "NPA-NXX"). Each carrier was given/owned NPA-NXXs in blocks of 10,000 that was theirs alone (ex 555-555-0000 through 555-555-9999), and there was/is a database called the LERG that identified who owned every single NPA-NXX in the country along with the point code of their switch (kinda like an IP address for phone calls). Every carrier would use that database to setup routing tables in their switch that allow both calls between carriers and roaming. The breakup of the MIN into two 10 digit numbers allowed the existing system to work with only small sofware and procedural changes to that system. MSID takes over the routing duties, and MDN takes the dialing duties, both of which used to belong to the MIN.

    It is now becoming more and more common for MDNs and MSIDs to be different not only because of WLNP, but also because of number pooling. When carriers request more numbers to sell (MDNs), they must now do it in increments of 1,000 instead of the 10,000 it used to be, except I think, in certain situations. And even then with the pool of numbers you receive, your MDNs and MSIDs often don't match (I know, I know, I always thought that was stupid too). Both numbers are equally important to complete calls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0siris
    I don't think MSID's are limited to CDMA. But I *do* think CDMA's carriers have all chosen to use them.

    In short, the "regular" telephone system uses the MDN, the telephone number, to locate the phone by the carrier that it's on. The carrier (Sprint, in this case) basically keeps track of the phone by its MSID. So when the other party calls you, the PSTN uses the phone number to locate your carrier, Sprint matches your phone number with its MSID, and then uses the MSID to complete the call.

    I'm leaving out a lot, but that's the basic idea.
    I'm not trying to be rude, but that's not even close to right

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    Quote Originally Posted by topher694
    I'm not trying to be rude, but that's not even close to right
    What, that the regular phone system doesn't use the MDN to route the call to the correct carrier?

    The the phone isn't tracked by MSID? I mean, I know it's tracked by other things, too, like ESN, but I gave just a quick snapshot without the other stuff, just as a basic idea of what the MSID does.

    Is it wrong, other than being technically incomplete?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0siris
    What, that the regular phone system doesn't use the MDN to route the call to the correct carrier?

    The the phone isn't tracked by MSID? I mean, I know it's tracked by other things, too, like ESN, but I gave just a quick snapshot without the other stuff, just as a basic idea of what the MSID does.

    Is it wrong, other than being technically incomplete?
    Ok, no the system doesn't use the MDN to route the call to the correct carrier, it uses the MSID to do that.

    Phones are tracked by the MSID and the MDN and the ESN/MEID.

    Your using the PSTN term wrong, in the process you describe routing tables use the SS7 network via what are called A-Links to locate your carrier and current location. The call is then routed via the PSTN network to the correct location (except in intra-switch mobile to mobile calls). The PSTN is simply just the physical means by which the call gets to where it is going, it doesn't figure out where the calls are going, it lets something else do that and then delivers them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0siris
    The MDN is what everyone knows you by when they try to call you. It's the number you get to port. The MSID is a carrier-specific number. It's not bound by number pooling regulations, or by any external requirements. The MDN *is*. The FCC decides who gets what MDN. The MSID is set by the carriers themselves for their own internal use.
    Two questions:
    1. Can the same 10-digit number be used as the MDN for one customer as well as the MSID for another customer or are they mutually exclusive (except when a line uses the same number for MDN and MSID)? For example, if customer A has 212-555-1234 as their MDN and 212-888-4321 as their MSID, can customer B (which may or may not be with the same carrier) have 212-888-4321 as their MDN, and can customer C have 212-555-1234 as their MSID?
    2. Can a carrier re-assign a new MSID to a line without changing the MDN?

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    I am a little confused. My Verizon phone was able to roam on GSM because they used TDMA. Tell it was shutdown. The phone recognizes it as Analog. If PCS has TDMA, It could be technically be used on GSM.
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    Just for emphasis, I'm going to respond with what I understood. It's not argumentative, just clarification.
    Quote Originally Posted by topher694
    Ok, no the system doesn't use the MDN to route the call to the correct carrier, it uses the MSID to do that.
    I didn't think MSID's got transmitted outside the carrier. So MSID 8473380123 means phone number 2241795648 in Sprint, and it might mean 8475282109 on Verizon. The nationwide phone system only tracks the MDN. Again, as I understood it.

    Quote Originally Posted by topher694
    Phones are tracked by the MSID and the MDN and the ESN/MEID.
    This part I deliberately left out simply because I didn't think it mattered in answering the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by topher694
    Your using the PSTN term wrong, in the process you describe routing tables use the SS7 network via what are called A-Links to locate your carrier and current location. The call is then routed via the PSTN network to the correct location (except in intra-switch mobile to mobile calls). The PSTN is simply just the physical means by which the call gets to where it is going, it doesn't figure out where the calls are going, it lets something else do that and then delivers them.
    That's true. But, again, when trying to present a technical answer in brief format to non-technical people, I don't understand why there's a need to technically precise.

    And I was fairly sure those A-Links (intercarrier) only deal with MDN's. Again, I understood MSID's to stay within a carrier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XFF
    Two questions:
    1. Can the same 10-digit number be used as the MDN for one customer as well as the MSID for another customer or are they mutually exclusive (except when a line uses the same number for MDN and MSID)? For example, if customer A has 212-555-1234 as their MDN and 212-888-4321 as their MSID, can customer B (which may or may not be with the same carrier) have 212-888-4321 as their MDN, and can customer C have 212-555-1234 as their MSID?
    2. Can a carrier re-assign a new MSID to a line without changing the MDN?
    yes and yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0siris
    Just for emphasis, I'm going to respond with what I understood. It's not argumentative, just clarification.

    I didn't think MSID's got transmitted outside the carrier. So MSID 8473380123 means phone number 2241795648 in Sprint, and it might mean 8475282109 on Verizon. The nationwide phone system only tracks the MDN. Again, as I understood it.

    This part I deliberately left out simply because I didn't think it mattered in answering the question.

    That's true. But, again, when trying to present a technical answer in brief format to non-technical people, I don't understand why there's a need to technically precise.

    And I was fairly sure those A-Links (intercarrier) only deal with MDN's. Again, I understood MSID's to stay within a carrier.
    I'm with ya, and again I didn't mean to be rude in any way. There isn't necissarily a need to be techically precise, but your description of the PSTN was technically inaccurate and that's why I mentioned it, although I can/could tell what you ment. Plus I used to work TONS with PSTN routing and trunking, so once I get started... look out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0siris
    I didn't think MSID's got transmitted outside the carrier. So MSID 8473380123 means phone number 2241795648 in Sprint, and it might mean 8475282109 on Verizon. The nationwide phone system only tracks the MDN. Again, as I understood it.
    I think you may be mistaken on this one...my understanding is that the MSID is a unique number that cannot be used by two providers at the same time, therefore MSID 8473380123 cannot correspond to both 2241795648 (sprint) and
    8475282109 (verizon) in your scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo
    I think you may be mistaken on this one...my understanding is that the MSID is a unique number that cannot be used by two providers at the same time, therefore MSID 8473380123 cannot correspond to both 2241795648 (sprint) and
    8475282109 (verizon) in your scenario.
    Maybe so. That's what I'm asking. Also, if they are carrier unique, why aren't they pooled like MDN's? Seems to me that, if they act exactly like MDN's, being unique like that, why have them? What would they do in this setup that the MDN doesn't do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo
    I think you may be mistaken on this one...my understanding is that the MSID is a unique number that cannot be used by two providers at the same time, therefore MSID 8473380123 cannot correspond to both 2241795648 (sprint) and
    8475282109 (verizon) in your scenario.
    Exactly



    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    Maybe so. That's what I'm asking. Also, if they are carrier unique, why aren't they pooled like MDN's? Seems to me that, if they act exactly like MDN's, being unique like that, why have them? What would they do in this setup that the MDN doesn't do?
    I'm not sure why they didn't pool MSIDs, but if I had to guess it would be because MSIDs don't change as often, you just need one per sub and it isn't something that the sub ever really sees or often is even aware of. So you only need addtional MSIDs as your net subscriber base increases. Since MDNs will travel with people most of the time now, there will be less of a need for new MDNs, hence pooling.

    The thing that the MSID does that the MDN doesn't is that it handles call routing and stays with the carrier. Both are unique, but as I said before they split up the duties that the MIN performed previously, and that split is what allows WLNP to work.

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