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Thread: E71 variants: 3G operating bands discussion

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    E71 variants: 3G operating bands discussion

    Folks,

    Before we go further, I suggest you open up a new page / tab in your browser for reference...

    http://www.willtek.com/english/technologies/umts_wcdma OR
    http://www.phonescoop.com/articles/aws/index.php?p=b

    It offers some insights and definitions inluding operating band class for WCDMA networks. In other words, we know that major carriers around the world runs:

    WCDMA Band I (Core, Europe, Japan): 1920 - 1980MHz (uplink), 2110 - 2170MHz (downlink)

    As you can see, even though it runs in "pair", but most of the time, it is simply called "WCDMA2100" but not "WCDMA1900/2100". I think it tries to avoid the confusion with the situation in North America that involves the existing PCS spectrum:

    WCDMA Band II (North America, PCS): 1850 - 1910MHz (uplink), 1930 - 1990MHz (downlink)

    Then many carriers in North America also deploy WCDMA on the existing Cellular spectrum too:

    WCDMA Band V (North America, Cellular): 824 - 849MHz (uplink), 869 - 894MHz (downlink)

    Then we have got the exciting AWS spectrum, which carriers including T-Mobile USA will deploy its WCDMA in the newly licensed spectrum:

    WCDMA Band IV (North America, AWS): 1710 - 1775 MHz (uplink), 2110 - 2175MHz (downlink)

    I have yet to find the convention on how to label AWS in terms of WCDMA operating bands. However, I think it maybe called "WCDMA1700" because it will confuse with the Band I, "WCDMA2100", that most are calling.
    --

    HC - NO "i"
    I am NOT "the" HC, we are TWO different individuals!


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    Lightbulb RM-407 WCDMA operating bands: thru all the available documents

    Now, let us to deal with the E71 variant, RM-407.

    Some of us have already tried to read the lines in the FCC filing documents (i.e. test reports). However, when I finished reading ALL of them, I have found conflicting information - even for the same variant.

    For example, RM-407, which we widely speculated it as a WCDMA1700/2100 variant. However, reading the lines the test reports, FCC filing 99059, test report# 1, 2:

    Attachment 932236, 932237
    The EUT is a 6-band (GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA Band I/V(850)) mobile phone with GPRS, EGPRS, Bluetooth and WLAN. The EUT is tested with maximum rated TX power, modulated with pseudo random bit sequence (PRBS9).
    But in test report #3:

    Attachment 9332238
    The EUT is a 5-band (GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA Band V(850)) mobile phone with GPRS, EGPRS, Bluetooth and WLAN. The EUT is tested with maximum rated TX power, modulated with pseudo random bit sequence (PRBS9).
    WCDMA Band I is WCDMA2100 and Band V is WCDMA850. Test report 2 clearly displays the testing details regarding WCDMA850. Since FCC does not (at least, not yet) require certification of Band I WCDMA2100 operation, there will not be anything about it.

    It just mentions "WCDMA850", but not "WCDMA2100". Well, not that strange when comparing with the report #4:

    Attachment 932239
    The EUT is a 6-band (GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA Band II/V) mobile phone with GPRS, EGPRS, Bluetooth and WLAN. The EUT is tested with maximum rated TX power, modulated with pseudo random bit sequence (PRBS9).
    What? It becomes "WCDMA850/1900"? If you take a closer look, the test device or EUT is actually involving two RM-346, NOT RM-407! I understand that FCC sometimes allow test results with different variant if it involves same shared operating parameters. In this report, it is about GSM operations.

    Again, in other bunch test reports for the WiFi and Bluetooth operations, it actually used three RM-346:

    Attachment 932276, 932277, 932317, 932303, 932304
    The EUT is a 6-band (GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA Band II/V) mobile phone with GPRS, EGPRS, Bluetooth and WLAN. Bluetooth and WLAN are tested with maximum rated TX power.
    So it looks like RM-346 could be a WCDMA850/1900 variant while RM-407 is WCDMA850/2100... if we just read those lines to match up with RM-346. What? Should RM-357, the E71-2 be the WCDMA850/1900? I am confused now. But remember, those test reports ARE NOT about WiFi and Bluetooth! Clear your mind and just hang on to the next bunch of test reports.

    Attachment 932316
    The EUT is a 6-band (GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA Band I/IV(1700)) mobile phone with GPRS, EGPRS, Bluetooth and WLAN. GSM bands are tested in idle mode. Bluetooth and WLAN are tested with maximum rated TX power.
    What? RM-407 has got WCDMA1700 and WCDMA2100! Not so fast, it turns out RM-357 was used in those tests! (Oh, my! RM-357 is the WCDMA1700/2100 that T-Mobile USA fans are hoping for?!)

    To be certain, I have cross-referenced the certification of RM-407, 661V-RM407 at Industry Canada. One particular item I am focused on - Emission Designation...

    Spec: RSS132 Iss: 2.0 Freq. (Hz) From 826.4M to 846.6 M Emission Designation: 4M20F9W Min. Power: 1 mW Max. Power: 120 mW

    It turns out...

    4M20F9W and 420HF9W are WCDMA related while 300KGXW is GSM related and 300KG7W is EDGE related.

    So I think RM-407 may not what some of the T-Mobile USA subscribers are hoping for...

    E71-? RM-407: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/2100
    Last edited by HC - NO "i"; 05-09-2008 at 01:49 PM.

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    As you can see, by just reading the several lines of description, I do not believe it is the definitive way to determine which variant is which. It only confuses even more. So, I start reading thru ALL the test reports available, and what exactly the tests are for.

    Then I think...

    E71-? RM-407: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/2100 (Band I / V)

    E71-? RM-346: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA900/2100 (Band I / VIII)

    E71-2 RM-357: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/1900 (Band II / V)

    So does it mean those at T-Mobile USA or any carrier moving into the AWS era would be left behind again? Not necessary. I could be entirely wrong and there could be changes to the specifications, future filing, errors or FCC and Industry Canada simply do not have the certification for AWS terminal yet.

    But what if...

    E71-2 RM-357: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/1700/1900 (Band II / IV / V) ?

    WOW! That would be greatest dream for many

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    There's one that's 850/1900, one that's 900/2100, and one that's 1700. That's directly from the test reports. If you look up the three different devices, the test reports are almost identical except for the part about the WCDMA bands. If I'm remembering them correctly, anyway. I'll have to look again to verify.

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    wierdo,

    Not quite simply as you and some others may think. Once again, we CANNOT ENTIRELY rely on the description. You have to go thru ALL the tests, what they are testing about (i.e. GSM850, GSM1900, WCDMA850, WCDMA1900, WiFi, Bluetooth).

    Also, like I have mentioned, I have NOT FOUND ANY test, certification, emission designation for WCDMA1700. I think both FCC and Industry Canada have yet to implemented it.

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    We'll know in a month when the whole reports are available to view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HC - NO "i"
    wierdo,

    Not quite simply as you and some others may think. Once again, we CANNOT ENTIRELY rely on the description. You have to go thru ALL the tests, what they are testing about (i.e. GSM850, GSM1900, WCDMA850, WCDMA1900, WiFi, Bluetooth).

    Also, like I have mentioned, I have NOT FOUND ANY test, certification, emission designation for WCDMA1700. I think both FCC and Industry Canada have yet to implemented it.
    If WCDMA 1700 is not implemented in the States, how do you explain the T-Mobile branded Nokia 3555/6263 and Samsung T639/T819 with AWS currently available?
    Phone History: Samsung Galaxy Note 2 | HTC Sensation 4G | Google Nexus One | HTC HD2 | Nokia 5230 Nuron | Nokia N900 | BB Curve 8900 | iPhone 3G | Google Ion | Nokia 5800XM | Nokia E71-2 | T-Mobile G1 | iPhone 2G

    My Feedbacks: eBay | Heatware | HoFo

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    I think he meant testing equipment is not implemented yet.
    Current Device: Nexus One
    Phone History: |N97 Mini| |5800| |E71-2| |N95-4| |N95-3| |N75| |6131| |6230| |SE T616|


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    wierdo,

    I do not know how familiar you are with the FCC filing site. Unless the certification is pending for approval, the test reports related to the emission, interference, SAR would be available for the public viewing once the authorization has been granted. Only certain documents like internal / external photos, schematics, service manuals, user's manuals will NOT available upon manufacturers' request as trade-secrets in form of permanent or short-term embargo.

    Again, the test reports regarding the concern subjects like WCDMA850/1900, GSM850/1900, WiFi, Bluetooth of the 3 E71 variants are available for viewing by FCC OET Equipment Authorization Search...

    https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/

    Talking of it, the temporary embargo for some documents like photos and user's manuals will be lifted as soon as early July according the filing (if Nokia has not decided to push further).

    bachviet / RogerPodacter,

    Greetings.

    Perhaps, I should write in more accurate language and it is wrong to say FCC or Industry Canada has yet to implement the certification, test standards and emission designations. I refer to the CERTIFICATION, TEST STANDARDS, EMISSION DESIGNATIONS in regards of WCDMA1700 for the 3 E71 variants, NOT the actual availability of the compatible network infrastructure or subscribers equipment.

    You have got it right... Nokia 6263 RM-207, for example, has the test results regarding WCDMA1700...

    https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/f...ive_or_pdf=pdf
    https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/f...ive_or_pdf=pdf

    And, you can help me and others to find out those relevant test among those for the 3 E71 variants. I have yet to find any so far.
    Last edited by HC - NO "i"; 05-10-2008 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HC - NO "i"
    As you can see, by just reading the several lines of description, I do not believe it is the definitive way to determine which variant is which. It only confuses even more. So, I start reading thru ALL the test reports available, and what exactly the tests are for.

    Then I think...

    E71-? RM-407: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/2100 (Band I / V)

    E71-? RM-346: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA900/2100 (Band I / VIII)

    E71-2 RM-357: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/1900 (Band II / V)

    ...
    Why would you have 2 international versions (850/2100 and 900/2100)? There are hardly any countries using WCDMA 900Mhz at this moment and only Australia has WCDMA 850. There is most likely to be one Euro/Asia version with 850/2100.

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    bachviet,

    It is not "me" would have 2 "world" UMTS versions but we are talking about Nokia, which sometimes has got odd ball things. Let me to give you one prime example in the current Nokia portfolio... 3120 classic, there are 3 variants:

    3120c-1c RM-364: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/2100 (Band I / V)
    3120c-?? RM-365: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA900/2100 (Band I / VIII)
    3120c-?? RM-366: GSM850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA850/1900 (Band II / V)

    Surely, someone like you and I do not know how widely WCDMA900 is deployed around the world. I do not how much world travel you have done. Perhaps you have got more hands-on experiences than I do. And, for that matter, I would like to ask carriers like SFR in France and Vodafone in New Zealand and infrastructure suppliers like Nokia-Simens Network for comments after a year of announcement / roll-out...

    http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1103808

    http://www.nokiasiemensnetworks.com/..._WCDMA_900.htm

    Overlay or redeploy WCDMA in the existing 900MHz spectrum is nothing unheard of and it is actually quite appealing in economical sense for the carriers. It requires relative less capital investment compared to the 2100MHz deployment which requires more cellsites to cover the comparable area - especially in less populated / rural markets, and more flexible to co-locate with the existing EGSM900 base stations.
    Last edited by HC - NO "i"; 05-16-2008 at 12:57 AM.

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    Folks,

    It is official but it is still no word on a WCDMA1700-capable variant, and there is a WCDMA900/2100 variant besides WCDMA850/2100 one!

    http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/E71

    Quote Originally Posted by Nokia
    Frequency's supported depending on model and region: GSM/EGSM 850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA 900/2100, HSDPA GSM/EGSM 850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA 850/2100, HSDPA GSM/EGSM 850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA 850/1900, HSDPA

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    this phone was the slightest bit of hope for tmobile peoples....sucks.

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    If you go read the FCC docs now, they have the user/owner manuals available. The 407 (E71-3) is clearly stating it's an WCDMA 850/2100 phone and not 1700/2100. Clearly the E71-3 is for Australia.

    (and, to answer part of the original message: I would call T-Mobile/Stelera's 3G band "WCDMA-1700" ... you're right, including the 2100MHz band is just confusing)


    If it were up to me, the carriers would produce world WCDMA phones, just like they produce world GSM phones -- all of them would work with the above arrangements.

    But, then, if it were up to me, there would be a distinction between frequency providers and service providers, treating the frequency providers as public utilities under each state's jurisdiction (and thus forcing T-Mobile, AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint to effectively be MVNO's), and requiring compatibility across the board.

    The end result being a more uniform and open platform for handset makers, and customers. I think it would force more competition among the customer facing entities (T-Mo, AT&T, etc.), and force stability, reliability, and consistency in the infrastructure. I can't think of any downsides for the customers (nor the handset makers, for that matter).

    If this was done as part of the move to LTE, it wouldn't even have to address the differences between GSM and CDMA carriers, since everyone but Sprint is pretty much going to LTE anyway (even smaller carriers, like MetroPCS).

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    johnkzin,

    This is what I have thinking from early on, and started this thread of discussion. I am well of the non-existence of WCDMA1700 since http://howardforums.com/showpost.php...27&postcount=3

    Just that many in the US, especially the T-Mobile USA subscribers, hoping to see more WCDMA1700-capable handsets to show up. I am totally fine with the WCDMA850/2100 compromise. In fact, it has been a year for me like that for almost a year with the Nokia 6120c and E51.

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