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Thread: Domestic Violence survivor? Oops - sorry, that's a pre-existing condition.

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by toomer
    Reference points for some of those ...

    Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire
    I'm not sure how valid an argument you can make when you are talking about an industrial accident during the time frame you are mentioning. During the industrial revolution of the late 19th into the early 20th century, absolutely working conditions were abysmal. There was no OSHA, no employee safety laws, no child labor laws. Heck, the fire codes back then didn't even require sprinkler systems in building. All it did was foment the formation of garment worker unions, and now how many clothes do you find in stores are actually manufactured in the US where there are unions as compared to clothes manufactured in India, China, etc. where there are none? India still uses child labor in their clothing manufacturing plants.

    And when did England start outlawing using small boys as chimney sweeps?

    If you want to use Triangle Shirt Waist as an argument for greater government control over all aspects of life, I could also use the Stalinist purges, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Warsaw ghettos under Hitler and the killing fields in Cambodia as arguments against total government control. How many millions died there?

    I'm not advocating going back to the laissez faire attitude of the previous century where anything and everything goes....there were a lot of lessons learned the hard way. Fifty/sixty years ago, smoking wasn't considered all that bad either, so cigarettes were still openly advertised on television. And leaded gasoline was used.

    So what's going to happen 100 years from now if it turns out that all those years of holding cellular phones to our heads did increase the occurrence of brain cancer? Are you going to argue "see...if only the government had greater control, then we would have had safer cell phones". Hindsight is always 20/20.

    Are you also gonna argue that if the government had greater control, then Mrs. O'Leary's cow wouldn't have kicked over that lamp that started the great Chicago fire? Or that greater government control would have prevented the San Francisco earthquake of 1906? Or that if the government was more stringent, then the Titanic wouldn't have sunk?

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by toomer
    The OP mentions that 9 states still deny coverage. Why can't state's protect their citizens? I agree that federal government should coverage the environment (infringing on others rights) but it has no place in labor. Labor is a choice; move to a state that offers protections or amend the constitution. I will jump on the public option bandwagon if you get the states to amend the constitution.

    You may have voted for Bush, but seriously Toomer you have share absolutely no Republican ideals. Even the prospect of sovereign states under a limited government drives you up a wall. I don't believe you went cold turkey that quick.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL1134
    The OP mentions that 9 states still deny coverage. Why can't state's protect their citizens? I agree that federal government should coverage the environment (infringing on others rights) but it has no place in labor. Labor is a choice; move to a state that offers protections or amend the constitution. I will jump on the public option bandwagon if you get the states to amend the constitution.

    You may have voted for Bush, but seriously Toomer you have share absolutely no Republican ideals. Even the prospect of sovereign states under a limited government drives you up a wall. I don't believe you went cold turkey that quick.
    Considering that Republican presidents have resided over the largest %age spending increases in the past 30 years of our country, I'll consider that a compliment. Fortunately, I no longer feel a need to wear a "label" to encapsulate my own political ideals (and will likely - officially - change my voter registration to independent in 2010).

    Average of year-over-year budgetary* spending increases during presidential term:

    Reagan - 6.79%
    GWB - 6.59%
    GHWB - 5.4%
    Clinton - 3.55%

    FYI - you had originally wondered "which states". I've finally come across an answer for that (I was wondering as well):

    Idaho, Mississippi, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota and Wyoming, and the District of Columbia, according to the National Women's Law Center.

    *(so that means GWB's numbers would be even higher, considering that Iraq and Afghanistan were almost entirely off-budget accounting)
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."

    -Sinclair Lewis

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortSxit
    Yes, because not letting a group of people vote based on their gender and dumping toxic waste is supported by anybody that wants a limited government. Very good argument.
    these are all things that needed to be regulated by big govt.... do you think big industries will simply decide not to dump toxic waste out of the goodness of their hearts? do you think that if it wasnt made into law by the big bad govt, that these things would just happen onto themselves? if you are for ultra limited govt, then you either accept these inequalities and problems, or you have some other theory as to why they wouldnt happen indefinately. which is it?

    and arguing that big govt was responsible for it all is not an argument-- did the govt somehow prop up heroin toothache ointment salesmen? no. they did not interfere. claim whatever you want, employ children, dump toxic waste. how exactly can you argue that the govt is in any way responsible for causing companies to commit these atrocities?

    im as libertarian as anyone on here. but alot of claimed libertarians are misguided into the thinking that govt should be completely hands off. libertarianism is about the pursuit of wealth/happiness/whatever you want, as long as it is not infringing on others or others via the environment

    yes. locking factory doors and forcing 12hr work days from children is an infringement onto the free will of those workers.

    yes. snake oil salesman selling heroin and cocaine as a cure all for children is an infringement on the well being of the consumers, as well as on the business of other, honest product salesmen.

    yes. industries/people dumping toxic waste or polluting the air is an infringement onto the environment of everyone.
    76% of statistics are based on 59% false information, and 28% outright lies. 34% of statistics are purposely misleading, and 88% are fabricated due to missed deadlines and faith-based agendas.
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemikaldreem
    these are all things that needed to be regulated by big govt.... do you think big industries will simply decide not to dump toxic waste out of the goodness of their hearts? do you think that if it wasnt made into law by the big bad govt, that these things would just happen onto themselves? if you are for ultra limited govt, then you either accept these inequalities and problems, or you have some other theory as to why they wouldnt happen indefinately. which is it?

    and arguing that big govt was responsible for it all is not an argument-- did the govt somehow prop up heroin toothache ointment salesmen? no. they did not interfere. claim whatever you want, employ children, dump toxic waste. how exactly can you argue that the govt is in any way responsible for causing companies to commit these atrocities?

    im as libertarian as anyone on here. but alot of claimed libertarians are misguided into the thinking that govt should be completely hands off. libertarianism is about the pursuit of wealth/happiness/whatever you want, as long as it is not infringing on others or others via the environment

    yes. locking factory doors and forcing 12hr work days from children is an infringement onto the free will of those workers.

    yes. snake oil salesman selling heroin and cocaine as a cure all for children is an infringement on the well being of the consumers, as well as on the business of other, honest product salesmen.

    yes. industries/people dumping toxic waste or polluting the air is an infringement onto the environment of everyone.

    I'm not quite sure what you're even arguing here. My point (as it always has been) is that no libertarian would condone any of the things you listed, so why were you bothering?

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortSxit
    I'm not quite sure what you're even arguing here. My point (as it always has been) is that no libertarian would condone any of the things you listed, so why were you bothering?
    You really don't get it? You condone situations favorable to the activities mentioned. The government does more than just spend buttloads of money and keep us from doing drugs and being selfish asses
    Procrastinators Unite Tomorrow

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by cingtony
    You really don't get it? You condone situations favorable to the activities mentioned. The government does more than just spend buttloads of money and keep us from doing drugs and being selfish asses
    Don't get what? I agree that these situations are exactly the reason the government needs to exist.

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