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Thread: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappy View Post
    The contract terms apply to both 3G and 4G. VZW hasn't implemented throttling for 4G yet, but they reserve to the right to do so in the future.

    http://support.verizonwireless.com/i...isclosure.html
    So Verizon network optimization isn't what AT&T does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    You are correct – except that I have recognized a need for network management.

    Are you 100% certain that vzw may with impunity – and the blessings of the FCC – selectively throttle high LTE data usage UL subscribers on the 700 C-band in a manner similar to that it now uses to throttle EVDO data on other spectra?

    [Please be direct.]
    I was very direct in my post. As far as I know, nothing directly or indirectly prohibits VZW from throttling as part of network management. Speculating and beating this dead horse any further on your further speculations is truly irrelevant at this point, since VZW has not introduced throttling on 4G LTE. If anything I would consider VZW's current 3G throttling as indicative of how they might wish to proceed on 4G LTE throttling if they introduce it.

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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    I do believe that throttling may be the answer. But i understand that my area has been riddled with articles in the paper for Verizon's lack of coverage in certain areas. Verizon claims it needs to have the revenue to expand. They proposed a new 4G site at our airport, but only rent free. We are not a metro area by any means, and an airport site is within a National Park. There are far more limiting factors than in a metro area. Regardless of these, they still need the revenue to do so. Even though we may be the 2nd richest County in the US, their subscribers will not front the money for a cell tower. It goes far beyond who wants it. It depends on those in metro areas paying for what they use to expand rural America. I hate to say that its all "trickle down", but when you are an engineer looking for funds thats what it is. Not that a handful of rich subscribers complaining to the right people may get it done. But that doesnt help the rest of rural America.

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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam73065 View Post
    I was very direct in my post. As far as I know, nothing directly or indirectly prohibits VZW from throttling as part of network management. Speculating and beating this dead horse any further on your further speculations is truly irrelevant at this point, since VZW has not introduced throttling on 4G LTE. If anything I would consider VZW's current 3G throttling as indicative of how they might wish to proceed on 4G LTE throttling if they introduce it.
    Verizon's throttling isn't the same as AT&T throttling according to this...

    http://m-support.verizonwireless.com...isclosure.html

    Verizon says they don't 'throttle' 4G but reserve the right to do so like they do 3G devices.

    So they don't throttle LTE but have the right too.

    I think it's important to know the difference between Verizon throttling and the likes of AT&T.

    Let's say Verizon starts to implement their network management on LTE devices. It only applies to when you're connected to a congested site and your speeds are only down when you're on the congested site and not for the entire billing cycle. When you're not on a congested site your speeds go back to normal.


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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus7Clark View Post
    If you're out of contract, they can change pretty much anything at will. You, on the other hand, are free to leave without penalty. IMNSHO, grandfathered unlimited data will go away soon.



    If Verizon continues to let you buy a full retail device to keep unlimited then it would be a drastic move on their part to say that we are no longer offering unlimited data. Wouldn't be good PR.

    I just bought an iPhone 5 at full retail as an example. I bought full retail only because I want to keep unlimited data. A lot of customers would be very pissed if Verizon said we are no longer offering unltd.

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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam73065 View Post
    I was very direct in my post. As far as I know, nothing directly or indirectly prohibits VZW from throttling as part of network management. Speculating and beating this dead horse any further on your further speculations is truly irrelevant at this point, since VZW has not introduced throttling on 4G LTE. If anything I would consider VZW's current 3G throttling as indicative of how they might wish to proceed on 4G LTE throttling if they introduce it.
    Vato may have a point. This has gone beyond "silly."

    Even though you didn't answer the question, I presume that you are not100% certain that vzw may with impunity – and the blessings of the FCC – selectively throttle high LTE data usage UL subscribers on the 700 C-band in a manner similar to that it now uses to throttle EVDO data on other spectra. Although, I agree fully that the 3g method is probably "indicative of how they might wish to proceed on 4G LTE throttling if they introduce it."
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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    ...
    All the verbosity in the world, 280 posts (so far) in a 1051 post thread (so far) doesn't change the facts. And should you get "the last word" by simply speaking more than others, it remains a fact that getting the last word does not make you right.
    ...
    I think it's perfectly obvious to most readers here why my posts in this thread would necessarily have to outnumber those of others.

    I'm finding it awkward – in the restricted environment of the HoFo app – to keep track of all the cut & paste so the percentage is going up. Have fun with your calculator!

    You're absolutely correct "that getting the last word does not make you right." Neither does it make me wrong.

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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    @macher
    That was a robo-troll post. Nobody home. The text is probably an old quote from somewhere earlier in this thread.

    Best to ignore those posts entirely; they could be traps for malware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    Vato may have a point. This has gone beyond "silly."

    Even though you didn't answer the question, I presume that you are not100% certain that vzw may with impunity – and the blessings of the FCC – selectively throttle high LTE data usage UL subscribers on the 700 C-band in a manner similar to that it now uses to throttle EVDO data on other spectra. Although, I agree fully that the 3g method is probably "indicative of how they might wish to proceed on 4G LTE throttling if they introduce it."
    Verizon reserves the right too. Verizon says that they don't at this time, see below link...

    http://support.verizonwireless.com/i...isclosure.html

    The point is they reserve the right to implement network management on LTE devices. It's important to note that it isn't the same as how AT&T does it.

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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappy View Post
    Congestion that degrades the network is subject to network management. In fact, one of the primary reasons for network management is to deal with congestion so that it leads to graceful degradation. And that might mean throttling the top 5% of data users. Its a standard network management technique.

    IMO, the 700 regs are written such that they allow anything that isn't excluded.
    You could be right (although "anything" might be strong here). But, idk. My position is that vzw itself isn't completely sure – despite the brave front in the ToS and elsewhere – and that's why it's chosen to go to the trouble of taking the matter to court.

    The question might not only be about what network management techniques are allowable. It could also be a question of fairness and equal access, complicated by the regs. Without the 700C issue vzw can, as its chosen business practice, single out unlimited data users on EVDO for throttling, NP. But 700C is a (dead?) horse of a different color.

    Note that I'm not referring to the FCC language in the documents about "discrimination" regarding devices or applications. That's an entirely separate matter.

    But where government intrudes these impicit standards of fair play are along for the ride, willy nilly. So, if the justification, by the regs, for throttling LTE is "network protection" then it may not be about – implicit – "standard network management technique" but, rather, about – implicit – 'standard government legal practice' to disallow throttling UL users under a different set of criteria from metered.

    After all, an UL user's ten or twenty gigs cannot – here I can be unequivocal – harm The Network any more or differently that the same amount of data flowing to a metered device.

    So maybe vzw can throttle LTE under the FCC regs with impunity – as long as it throttles everybody by the same criteria. But, that's not how the lady in red wants to do it.

    But, IMO, it's better to let the courts decide such things.
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 12-14-2012 at 07:39 AM.

  12. #1077
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    Re: can VZW legally stop allowing unlimited plans for EVERYBODY in a couple of years?

    Quote Originally Posted by macher50267 View Post
    Verizon reserves the right too. Verizon says that they don't at this time, see below link...

    http://support.verizonwireless.com/i...isclosure.html

    The point is they reserve the right to implement network management on LTE devices. It's important to note that it isn't the same as how AT&T does it.
    That's been dealt with. Would please stop repeating that same point so I can stop reposting this sequence:

    .
    Originally Posted by macher50267
    Verizon states they network manage.
    .
    Originally Posted by TC_Mits

    And if vzw states that it is OK to have third party tethering apps dropped from the PlayPlace – or that pigs can fly – does that make those things true?

    .
    Originally Posted by macher50267

    Verizon says it can network manage, what part of network manage don't you understand?
    .
    Originally Posted by TC_Mits

    What part of "Verizon says" are you failing to grasp? Just because it says it can doesn't make it so. Is it acting on that claim?

    The various methods of network management have diverse implications in different contexts. Right now, I believe we're considering throttling LTE data throughput at the tower level. Where does vzw publicly state – not just that it can – but that it *is*currently* throttling data on 700C?
    .
    Originally Posted by macher50267

    What part of network management don't you understand?

    Whether they act on what they say about network management is irrelevant. They say they have the right.
    .
    Originally Posted by bmtvaquero

    I am going to make a written statement...........

    "I can play 18 holes at Pebble Beach on a cold and rainy day and shoot a score of 65".

    Now, I have stated that I can do it, but have I "established" that I can? A very real difference, not just semantics.
    .
    Originally Posted by macher50267

    That's irrelevant because a statement like that is not likely.

    Make a more realistic valid statement and I'll buy it.

    Verizon statement is realistic, your statement isn't.
    .
    Originally Posted by TC_Mits
    Dude, he made the point crystal clear, even if the example ain't so hot (actually, it's pretty good, though) . Now you're just quibbling to save face. Get off it. Do you know the word 'cavil'?
    ***This is an excellent example:
    Originally Posted by inkdesigner
    So, VZW says they can perform network management. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean they have the technical capability to do it or does it mean they have the legal right to do it?

    Take this example. Any of the major inkjet printer OEMs have the technical ability to make their cartridges so that they could be a one use item and then never work again, even if refilled with ink. However, federal law makes it illegal. Hence, they can say their cartridges are a one time use item, even though everyone knows it is not true. See, technically, they can do it, but legally, they can not.

    So, which is it with VZW and network management? Is it technically possible or legally possible?
    .
    Originally Posted by TC_Mits
    You are entitled to your opinion and you could very well be right. But – IF you are – it wil NOT be because of what vzw 'says' it can do.

    There is no reason at all that the example needs to be realistic. Sometimes, the best examples can be ridiculous exaggerations that overstate the intent in order to make it clear. Not so in this case, but the golf example will work very well, I assure you, for anyone who may come behind us just trying to figure out the gist of our discussion.

    And you, my friend, will only look foolish for trying to pretend that you don't understand it.
    .
    Originally Posted by jseah
    But what if bmtvaquero is actually Tiger Woods? Then his statement would be likely.
    .
    Originally Posted by bmtvaquero

    Well, I'm not Tiger Woods, but it wouldn't matter if I had written that I could shoot 85 instead of 65. Writing that I can do something doesn't establish that I can do it. I must demonstrate that ability. One way to establish that would be to go out and do it. Another way would be to post all my scores at various similarly difficult golf courses under similar conditions in the recent past.

    However, to just state that I can do something does not establish that I can do it.

    This has gotten silly.
    But the silliness goes on.
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 12-14-2012 at 09:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macher50267 View Post
    It's important to note that it isn't the same as how AT&T does it.
    No, it's not important, even though you have posted this many times. What AT&T does has absolutely nothing to do with what Verizon is allowed or not allowed to do or how they do it. Maybe someone in the AT&T forum might be interested in what AT&T does with respect to throttling.

    I reserve the right to fly to Mars, even though I've not established in any way that I possess that capability or have permission to launch a rocket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam73065 View Post
    I was very direct in my post. As far as I know, nothing directly or indirectly prohibits VZW from throttling as part of network management. Speculating and beating this dead horse any further on your further speculations is truly irrelevant at this point, since VZW has not introduced throttling on 4G LTE. If anything I would consider VZW's current 3G throttling as indicative of how they might wish to proceed on 4G LTE throttling if they introduce it.
    Quote Originally Posted by macher50267 View Post
    Verizon's throttling isn't the same as AT&T throttling according to this...

    http://m-support.verizonwireless.com...isclosure.html

    Verizon says they don't 'throttle' 4G but reserve the right to do so like they do 3G devices.

    So they don't throttle LTE but have the right too.

    I think it's important to know the difference between Verizon throttling and the likes of AT&T.

    Let's say Verizon starts to implement their network management on LTE devices. It only applies to when you're connected to a congested site and your speeds are only down when you're on the congested site and not for the entire billing cycle. When you're not on a congested site your speeds go back to normal.


    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using HowardForums
    You obviously either did not read my post or did not understand it. I simply pointed out Vzw currently has a 3G throttling policy in place and that is possibly the policy they would implement on 4G LTE if and when such a policy were to be implemented. I'm not sure why you think ATTM's throttling policy is any way relevant to my comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    I'm finding it awkward – in the restricted environment of the HoFo app – to keep track of all the cut & paste so the percentage is going up.
    Insulting the site software is no excuse for your inability to use the site correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    You're absolutely correct "that getting the last word does not make you right." Neither does it make me wrong.
    Being wrong makes you wrong.

    Perhaps a smarter person would realize that when it is them against the world the world has a point?

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