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Thread: The future of Unlimited Data

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam73065 View Post
    I felt the moderator was out of bounds for closing the thread referred to. The subject matter may have strayed but the thread had remained reasonably civil. Nobody was forced to join the thread or continue in the thread if they had wished to opt out.
    It is Howard's house so follow Howard's rules. Don't come into the house, pee on the carpet then complain about the smell.
    This is a thread about Unlimited Data ... not a thread to discuss or complain about the moderation of the forum.
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  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    Is everyone comfortable that this extensive discussion of throttling is on topic in the context of "The future of Unlimited Data"?
    If one believes that the future of unlimited data on Verizon Wireless includes throttling I don't see the problem with mentioning it as part of the discussion. But it should be a discussion. If the thread turns into another one with one person dominating the conversation and pulling the topic further away from the core then it just becomes a disruption.

    All of the points made in the other thread(s) were made in other threads ... I suggest that posters stick with discussing the future of unlimited data.

  3. #363
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    Getting back to the topic ...

    I believe VZW will continue to offer Unlimited Data to the major accounts that can still add a phone with Unlimited Data.
    I believe VZW will continue to try to convince consumers to give up their unlimited data. Eventually regular consumers will not be able to keep an unlimited plan. I don't see the force off of unlimited coming soon ... maybe in 2014. Or perhaps by then there will be few enough people on unlimited that the loss won't matter to VZW in the grand scheme of things.

    I am willing to be wrong about these predictions. Seeing "Unlimited" return for $60 or $99 per month would make some people happy. It won't be ~$30.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    Getting back to the topic ...

    I am willing to be wrong about these predictions. Seeing "Unlimited" return for $60 or $99 per month would make some people happy. It won't be ~$30.
    I see no future for unlimited in any form for any cost on Verizon Wireless. Those days are over.
    Even at $60 and $99 for unlimited, they can make so much more with tiered data plans. At $60 or $99 there's no possibility of making money since usage is unlimited (throttled or not).
    They're banking on their customer base either to go over and thus pay the overages or for force the consumer to buy a bigger pack of data than they really need. You can ca$h in very big with the overages and the not-so-right data packages.

    I have no problem with being wrong, but I'm going to go with the idea that Verizon Wireless wants more money, and will make it in any way they can.
    Maybe they'll scrap tiered data plans and implement a congestion/demand based pricing scheme.
    Data is today's ca$h cow.

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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    With all of the recent posts, I still wonder where Verizon should be able to make overage charges? This is built into their business model for Wall Street. Verizon has never billed an "unlimited everything" plan because they intend to expand their network, locations, and capacity in the future. They are not in the position of T-Mobile. Sprint, and other carriers where they just concentrate on metro America. If their revenue becomes stagnant, they have no growth. I have read where Verizon recently plans to expand their coverage in Yellowstone, Yosemite, and Glacier National Parks. If you were to travel there would you not expect service, even just for 911? Where do you expect the $ to come from for such (expensive) cell towers. No one else has them in these areas, so roaming means nothing. You may say you will never go there, but the same can be said for areas near you. Unlimited capps everyone, both the carrier and you. Look outside your own usage, and consider others. There is a reason Sprint and T-Mobile dont grow in coverage. They have a limited cap in revenue. You need to be able to grow in revenue to grow in coverage and to protect "aka expand" your network.

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  6. #366
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    The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by 3G Guy View Post
    With all of the recent posts, I still wonder where Verizon should be able to make overage charges? This is built into their business model for Wall Street. Verizon has never billed an "unlimited everything" plan because they intend to expand their network, locations, and capacity in the future. They are not in the position of T-Mobile. Sprint, and other carriers where they just concentrate on metro America. If their revenue becomes stagnant, they have no growth. I have read where Verizon recently plans to expand their coverage in Yellowstone, Yosemite, and Glacier National Parks. If you were to travel there would you not expect service, even just for 911? Where do you expect the $ to come from for such (expensive) cell towers. No one else has them in these areas, so roaming means nothing. You may say you will never go there, but the same can be said for areas near you. Unlimited capps everyone, both the carrier and you. Look outside your own usage, and consider others. There is a reason Sprint and T-Mobile dont grow in coverage. They have a limited cap in revenue. You need to be able to grow in revenue to grow in coverage and to protect "aka expand" your network.

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using HowardForums
    This incorrectly assumes the only way to raise revenue is to raise prices on existing customers.

    Verizon's 4G network.

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  7. #367
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    …If the thread turns into another one with one person dominating the conversation and pulling the topic further away from the core then it just becomes a disruption.

    All of the points made in the other thread(s) were made in other threads ... I suggest that posters stick with discussing the future of unlimited data.
    Loser's limp. IM(NS)HO.

    But, I suggest we set that particular difference of opinion aside and focus on "The future of Unlimited Data" which I see in a broad context, thusly:

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    The future of unlimited data is a very complex topic; several threads have come and gone since Shammo first proclaimed – prematurely – its imminent demise, and yet many questions are still unsettled.

    In looking over the last couple of weeks on this thread we see questions about both throttling and tethering, the broad domain of spectrum and bandwidth; the exigencies of profit, costs, marketing, and competion confronted by the needs and will of the consumers; and hanging over it all like a pall of smoke or dust the uneasiness of pending court action and unresolved legalities. Nor is that all, each of these unsettled matters is rendered even more complex by the conflict between three disparate perspectives: that of the mobile data industry; the viewpoint of the cellular data subscriber; and the detached stance of "the right thing" (whatever that is) with its legal, ethical, moral, and cultural encumbrances.

    People with direct knowledge are mostly inaccessible and formal, official clarity from the lady in red is nonexistent. There's potential here for lively and enlightening discussion.
    If anyone feels some of these points are inappropriately off-topic or wholly irrelevant to a discussion of "The future of Unlimited Data" that's not the same as simple disagreement in a discussion. I suggest we get the matter of topicality settled now so that it doesn't become a bone of contention later.

    Are any of my points, from my Boxing Day post #290(?), quoted here above off-topic to the point that they are unfit to be discussed in this thread in the context of "The future of Unlimited Data" ?
    [#366?]

    ******
    I posted this, also:
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    On a side note, my feeling is that GSMinCT can be ignored, for the most part. His point has been made. And it is so totally out of touch with current cellular reality – so far behind the curve – that it can be dismissed as anachronistic and really shouldn't merit much attention.
    It is mostly valid criticism. Still GSM has made some worthwhile points, most notably to me, the idea that IF 3g EVDO, etc. is working as intended it really is fast enough for many purposes. The implication is that moving from 'fast enough' to 'a lot faster' won't really make a huge difference in data usage. I accept his point here — in theory.

    What GSM seems unable to grasp is that, in the here and now, good 3g is like the Philosopher's Stone, a lot of people have heard about it but very few claim to have seen it. So, for most people in the real world, moving from 3g to LTE is an order of magnitude jump and will make a corresponding difference in data consumption.

    My point, atm, is that GSM's posts – like everyone's – deserve to be evaluated on the merits and not ad hominem. If it's mostly repetitive blather, OK, then ignore it. But worthy, logically sound, properly supported contributions still deserve to be acknowledged – *irregardless* of their source.

    EDIT: I am accused below of attacking GSMinCT with this post. GSM has been roundly criticised by many different posters in multiple threads, myself included. Those posts, if collected, would comprise a not insignificant thread of their own.
    Against that backdrop, I feel this post defends GSM's right to post and be heard – however much I, or others, may disagree – rather than atttacks him.
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 12-30-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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    The future of Unlimited Data

    This is sort of related to UL.

    Is it an FCC ruling or not that VZW allows you to use your UL sim from your device in a MiFi or iPad? If so why isn't AT&T under this ruling since they have 700? Or is it that VZW just allows these consumer friendly features?
    Last edited by macher50267; 12-30-2012 at 07:43 AM.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    Loser's limp. IM(NS)HO.
    I didn't lose the argument in the other thread ... you did. No wonder you wish to set it aside.

    Anyways ... when you discuss the topic of this thread I'll have something to respond to. Attacking GSMinCT isn't the topic. Having you repost the same text over and over is practically spamming but discussing you isn't the topic. The future of unlimited data is the topic.

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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    I'm pleased, then, that we're both satisfied with the result.

    Far from setting them aside, the elements of that thread which remain a propos will be useful here, as well. I'm looking forward to revisiting them in the new context of this thread.

    Do you have any comments on the substance of my post or do find all of the points advanced to be acceptable topics and perspectives for our deliberations ? —>

    If anyone feels some of these points are inappropriately off-topic or wholly irrelevant to a discussion of "The future of Unlimited Data", be aware that that's not the same as simple disagreement with those points in discussion. I suggest we address the matter of topicality now so that it doesn't become a bone of contention later.

    My concern now is to determine whether you, justa, or any others, feel any of my points, from my Boxing Day post [#290(?), quoted here above] are far enough off-topic as to be unfit or inappropriate for discussion in this thread's present context – "The future of Unlimited Data" ?

    Anyways ... if you're looking for me to discuss the topic of this thread I have already posted something for you to respond to on 'The future of Unlimited Data' as the topic. Try posts #340 and #350. Specifically regarding 'rush hour' as an analogy for data congestion and the validity of data capping (hard or soft) in that context; numerical or other support for the costliness of network expansion; and, a question on the reasons that, as yet, vzw is neither throttling nor filling in "The Network" – for starters. Whenever you're looking for me discuss the topic of this thread so you can have something respond to, that is.
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 12-30-2012 at 11:12 AM.

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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by macher50267 View Post
    This is sort of related to UL.

    Is it an FCC ruling or not that VZW allows you to use your UL sim from your device in a MiFi or iPad? If so why isn't AT&T under this ruling since they have 700? Or is it that VZW just allows these consumer friendly features?
    "After several communications with Verizon’s press team, they did give us a truly straight-up answer… and here it is:

    "'The SIM holds the detail of your data plan. If you move it to another device, you will be charged for the service you use. If you have an unlimited SIM and it fits another device, you can use it and you will pay for the service plan associated with the SIM.'

    "Even we were surprised by the clarity of Verizon’s confirmation. This means Verizon is well aware that they cannot touch your grandfathered smartphone data plan, just because you chose to move it to a LTE MiFi or LTE iPad (which also acts as a portable hotspot). "

    http://www.phonenews.com/verizon-aff...te-ipad-20053/


    The greater significance of this sim swapability — in the context of "The future of Unlimited Data" — is that it would be hard to see a way for vzw to de-grandfather UL data plans by a block on equipment changes, like switching to VoLTE, for example.

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    The future of Unlimited Data

    Cutting to the chase:

    After several communications with Verizon’s press team, they did give us a truly straight-up answer… and here it is:

    "The SIM holds the detail of your data plan. If you move it to another device, you will be charged for the service you use. If you have an unlimited SIM and it fits another device, you can use it and you will pay for the service plan associated with the SIM."

    Even we were surprised by the clarity of Verizon’s confirmation. This means Verizon is well aware that they cannot touch your grandfathered smartphone data plan, just because you chose to move it to a LTE MiFi or LTE iPad (which also acts as a portable hotspot).[/QUOTE]

    The sum of this is that you CAN HOLD ON TO YOUR UNLIMITED DATA, as long as you don't get a discounted device. If you chose to pay full price, or chose to steal an upgrade from another on your plan, then it's ok. If you choose to have them discount your device on your line, then you need to change plans. It's fairly simple. Pay for what you get. Unlimited plans are going away. At least they are giving you an option at this point.

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    The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by 3G Guy
    The sum of this is that you CAN HOLD ON TO YOUR UNLIMITED DATA, as long as you don't get a discounted device. If you chose to pay full price, or chose to steal an upgrade from another on your plan, then it's ok. If you choose to have them discount your device on your line, then you need to change plans. It's fairly simple. Pay for what you get. Unlimited plans are going away. At least they are giving you an option at this point.
    I'm not a fan boy of any carrier but I think it's a lot less likely that AT&T will get rid of UL because they control their network by throttling. It's been said that the cost of GB is less with throttling, it's the bottom line $$ that counts. I think if VZW implemented their network optimization on 4G and/or throttling it would be different. But then you have a case of being subject to throttling and paying full price for your device and/or bringing in your own used device compared to AT&T throttling that allows you to upgrade at subsidized pricing and keep UL.

    I know people will start posting that throttling or network optimization isn't related but it's very closely tied. I think it's inevitable that VZW will start to implement throttling and probably won't be such a bad thing because it could serve as sort of an 'in' to keep UL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macher50267 View Post
    I'm not a fan boy of any carrier but I think it's a lot less likely that AT&T will get rid of UL because they control their network by throttling. It's been said that the cost of GB is less with throttling, it's the bottom line $$ that counts. I think if VZW implemented their network optimization on 4G and/or throttling it would be different. But then you have a case of being subject to throttling and paying full price for your device and/or bringing in your own used device compared to AT&T throttling that allows you to upgrade at subsidized pricing and keep UL.

    I know people will start posting that throttling or network optimization isn't related but it's very closely tied. I think it's inevitable that VZW will start to implement throttling and probably won't be such a bad thing because it could serve as sort of an 'in' to keep UL.
    I agree, however, the way Verizon handles throttling is much more rational, and extremely transparent. They actually explain very detailed how and when throttling happens, and even if LTE users ever become affected by this policy, you'll be able to avoid it if you're smart about it. Because of this very granular policy, if you're traveling for instance, and using significant amount of data, you won't put a serious strain on their network and won't be throttled since you're constantly switching cell sites.

    On the other hand, AT&T's initial throttling policy was top 5% of data usage per market, and they were not interested in being clear how much data would trigger this per market. Users used to get throttled at 1.6GB a month or something random. It was outrageous.

    Now they give you 5GB of unthrottled data, and they don't care whether you're traveling or not, whether your usage patterns are normally super low, that one time you go over 5GB while you're on a trip you'll hate life. The broadband experience is just not gonna be there when you need it the most.

    And then there is Sprint and T-Mobile with true unlimited.
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    Strongarming not required, as I posted above. VoLTE is also NBD. But LTE advanced is. Actually, LTE doesn't yet really meet the original tech specs for '4g'. LTE Adv is another quantum leap. So leaving LTE to go the congested way of 3g while denying UL plans on the AWS LTE advanced network would cause enough UL attrition that it wouldn't be a big problem.

    Also, if the government doesn't bend over and ease the 700 regs in the next few months, vzw may well challenge them in court.
    I posted ^this^ here back in October. Turns out a lot of it is wrong.

    For one, LTE-A allows increaaed data efficiencies by grouping different spectrum bands into virtual blocks, so AWS won't be a distinct functional block for LTE-A. Also, the FCC regs apply to any handset capable of accessing the 700-C band, even if it never does so. That, IMO, is why vzw doesn't throttle 4g devices on 3g towers. Upshot is that vzw's AWS won't change anything on the regulatory front.

    The change in regulatory climate didn't happen last month either. And vzw had already filed its court challenge more than three months before my post. So now the future of grandfathered unlimited data hangs in the balance of the DC Court of Appeals.

    When folks post that UL data is going away, we presume that is a reference to de-grandfathering since new subscribers can't get it now. In that context, I've seen two years, five years, even ten years mentioned. Five years is eternity in this volatile industry. No expectation of reliability about any prediction would make sense. Was Android even around five years ago? We could be talking about terabyte cellular data plans in ten years.

    The future of Unlimited Data is not clear enough to allow such long-view forecasts to be credible. There just is no reason to think that my $30 LTE UL line *couldn't* – perhaps – hang around until a genuinely better deal obsoletes it. Of course, there's also no reason to expect that it will. If I get two more years, that'll be great — and my unreliable sheer guess, based solely on vzw's past grandfathering actions, is that I'll get more than that. But who knows… ?
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 12-31-2012 at 07:46 AM.

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