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Thread: The future of Unlimited Data

  1. #421
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    You keep saying there are obligations, but other than the ones I named you have not named any.
    "There are obligations", "there are obligations", "there are obligations" ... OK, what are they?

    The obligations of a corporation do NOT require it to operate as a charity. Not that it is bad when a company does help out the less fortunate - but there is no obligation to do so. At least, no obligation that has not been met.
    All true, as you say. And that is the problem.

    It is the ahumanity, the non-human character of the corporate legal 'person' that removes, by degrees, all mitigating factors from its essential evil. Indeed, the corporate entity has but one purpose and one economic obligation: to generate income for its owners.

    Morality be damned then.

    In post #290 I refer to:
    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    … the detached stance of "the right thing" (whatever that is) with its legal, ethical, moral, and cultural encumbrances.
    Corporations can operate without the excess baggage of human scruples:
    Do I have a legal obligation to concern myself with my parents in their old age? To buy birthday presents for my children? To be faithful to my wife?

    No. Corporations may be legal 'persons' but they are not people. A corporation has but a single purpose and only one obligation.

    And that's the problem.


    The future of Unlimited Data is precarious because contracts and other legal documents are carefully crafted to eliminate as many obligations to the customers as possible. The future of Unlimited Data is precarious because government restriction is a problem to be solved through legal and legislative maneuvering not a standard to be guarded on behalf of society. The future of Unlimited Data is precarious because a merely human person has no rights which a corporation is bound to respect — to paraphrase the Dred Scott decision.
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 01-09-2013 at 02:32 PM.
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  2. #422
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    Legal obligation? I'm not a lawyer, I don't know. But, the machinery of a corporation is just one facet of that organization. People run those companies, people have moral obligations.

    The airways belong to us all. We, or our elected and appointed representatives, are the keepers of those resources. Verizon has been granted the legal right to use and allocate those resources. Yes, they have an obligation to do that in a responsible manner.

  3. #423
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    True —

    …until it succeeds in maneuvering the law to its advantage as it did in Philly nine years ago to kill public WiFi. And as it is attempting to do right now in the DC Court of Appeals to carve up the internet buffet and serve it a la carte – as I noted above on NYs Day.

    The future of Unlimited Data will be determined in that courtroom (or on appeal).
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 01-09-2013 at 07:10 AM.

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    Somebody earlier said something about "prying Unlimited Data from my cold, dead hands".

    I concur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmtvaquero View Post
    The airways belong to us all. We, or our elected and appointed representatives, are the keepers of those resources. Verizon has been granted the legal right to use and allocate those resources. Yes, they have an obligation to do that in a responsible manner.
    Are they being irresponsible in making sure that the people using the resource are paying for both the public airwaves and for the private internet bandwidth that they are consuming?

    It seems the proponents of "unlimited data" are asking VZW to be unreasonable ... to give away those resources, perhaps even taking a loss on the private internet bandwidth consumed.

    The airwaves were auctioned to VZW and other carriers with the expectation that the carriers would charge money for the use. The auction winners are permitted to make a profit. There is no requirement in law that any carrier offer unlimited data for a set price.
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    The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by bmtvaquero View Post
    Legal obligation? I'm not a lawyer, I don't know. But, the machinery of a corporation is just one facet of that organization. People run those companies, people have moral obligations.

    The airways belong to us all. We, or our elected and appointed representatives, are the keepers of those resources. Verizon has been granted the legal right to use and allocate those resources. Yes, they have an obligation to do that in a responsible manner.
    The airways belong to all of us and we sold Verizon the right to use them. If you are not happy with the terms of the licensing agreement then complain to the Government and not Verizon.

  7. #427
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    The future of Unlimited Data

    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    Are they being irresponsible in making sure that the people using the resource are paying for both the public airwaves and for the private internet bandwidth that they are consuming?

    It seems the proponents of "unlimited data" are asking VZW to be unreasonable ... to give away those resources, perhaps even taking a loss on the private internet bandwidth consumed.

    The airwaves were auctioned to VZW and other carriers with the expectation that the carriers would charge money for the use. The auction winners are permitted to make a profit. There is no requirement in law that any carrier offer unlimited data for a set price.
    EXACTLY! We don't live in a socialist society.

    Verizon is only doing what is allowed per the license that they bought from the government.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtludwig View Post
    The airways belong to all of us and we sold Verizon the right to use them. If you are not happy with the terms of the licensing agreement then complain to the Government and not Verizon.
    Bingo. The right to use the airways belonged to us. And we sold it for billions and billions of dollars to the wireless carriers.

    Verizon's 4G network.

    I live in California, not New York. I actually dislike New York.

  9. #429
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    I'm probably wrong here, but I had thought of it as more like a lease, with conditions attached.
    *****

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post

    The obligations of a corporation do NOT require it to operate as a charity. Not that it is bad when a company does help out the less fortunate - but there is no obligation to do so. At least, no obligation that has not been met.
    True enough. Did someone post that for-profits should mimic non-profits?

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    Are they being irresponsible in making sure that the people using the resource are paying for both the public airwaves and for the private internet bandwidth that they are consuming?
    Of course not. Did someone say so?

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    It seems the proponents of "unlimited data" are asking VZW to be unreasonable ... to give away those resources, perhaps even taking a loss on the private internet bandwidth consumed.
    Where?

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by justalurker View Post
    The airwaves were auctioned to VZW and other carriers with the expectation that the carriers would charge money for the use. The auction winners are permitted to make a profit. There is no requirement in law that any carrier offer unlimited data for a set price.
    Who posted that there was?
    ***

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by jtludwig View Post
    The airways belong to all of us and we sold Verizon the right to use them. If you are not happy with the terms of the licensing agreement then complain to the Government and not Verizon.
    Who complained about the terms?

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by jtludwig View Post
    EXACTLY! We don't live in a socialist society.

    Verizon is only doing what is allowed per the license that they bought from the government.
    Did somebody refer to Socialism?
    Anyway, all true — well, m a y b e "only" is a little strong, but OK, agreed.
    ***


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    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam73065 View Post
    We all expect a well run corporation/business to make a profit. However that does not mean that profit is the only measure of success nor the only obligation. …
    I agree with ^this^.

    My concern regarding vzw's overweening arrogance is precisely its disdain for law, morality, and the well-being of human society at any point where these impact its ability to *maximize* profit. Others posting here give the impression that they are defending precisely that – vzw's right to that disdain. I, OTOH, protest and bemoan the status quo which – admittedly – leaves a corporation free from any such more 'human' constraints.


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    Last edited by TC_Mits; 01-10-2013 at 06:42 PM.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC_Mits View Post
    A "straw man" argument is framed by falsely attributing an absurd, exaggerated, offensive or otherwise weak proposition to an opponent and then demolishing that self-contrived construct rather than what was presented.
    You spend FAR too much time on this forum discussing arguing. The forum is here to discuss cellular providers and service/phones/etc.

    Perhaps if you spent more time reading the posts than looking for an argument you would not miss so much of the cellular discussion.

  11. #431
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    That one's called a "red herring".

    But, per Mr. Newman, I do value your consistent validation of my contributions. Thank you.



    Anyway, I'm not sure what you think I missed, but let's press forward with tying this unhumanly greedy corporate tunnel-vision to its impact on the future of the vzw grandfathered UL data plans.

    Since the lady in red has no weak human reservations about how her undeviating drive to extract ever-increasing fiscal advantage from any and every circumstance that may present itself affects any person or society except herself, she can do things that mere mortals would find morally daunting – like turn back the tide of publiic WiFi:
    http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keat...i-hotspots.asp

    This farsighted legal maneuvering by vzw — which involved both legal action in the court of law and legislative lobbying to tailor the law more to her liking — eliminated an emerging major public sector competitor and so made cellular data potentially much more valuable.

    The fact that this new legal milieu would result in either greatly increased cost for, or even in many cases the loss altogether, of home or mobile internet access to those who could least afford it would, perhaps, give pause to a human "person" with the weakness of moral compunctions, but vzw being a corporate legal "person" unencumbered by such concerns went straight on and so cornered the market on cellular data.

    Nine years later, the vision of vzw can now be realized in these borderline extortionary rates for capped cellular data services which would have been manifestly impossible had local government retained the right to provide low-cost *unlimited* WiFi at publicly subsidized prices.

    So, "The future of Unlimited Data" is here rooted in the past legal maneuverings of vzw to nip public sector competion in the bud. Where a mere human with moral compunctions might have hesitated at the effects on other humans of such actions, the single-minded corporation with the sole purpose of maximizing its own profits need have no such scruples.
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 01-11-2013 at 10:59 AM.

  12. #432
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    I currently have both an at&t and Verizon unlimited phone. Verizon does not currently limit my data in any way (as long as I don't get a subsided device). at&t on the other hand will limit my speeds. Sprint and T-Mobile would limit my coverage area on their unlimited plans. Verizon is the fastest nationally (LTE), followed by at&t with limited LTE (and 3G+ relabelled as 4G). Unlimited is a relative term, what do you wish to have unlimited, coverage, speed, or amount?

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  13. #433
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    Re: The future of Unlimited Data

    I fully agree, for the moment at least, vzw 4g grandfathered UL data is – without a doubt – the best thing going …

    Now, what's that sword that guy Damocles hung up there all about, anybody know?
    Last edited by TC_Mits; 01-22-2013 at 06:17 AM.

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