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Thread: Group MMS

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    Group MMS

    Okay, its 2018. Can we get native group text messaging working? Rogers/Fido has reportedly launched support for it in December 2016.

    Before any Apple folks pipe up, group messaging works with iMessages, but I believe that is because iMessages routes stuff through apple servers for them. Maybe someone with an iPhone can test a third party sms app to see. Regardless, if they try a group chat which includes android users, those users will likely complain of the same problem.

    I realize the issue can be overcome by using a chat app which funnels communications through data such as Hangouts or WhatsApp. But for that to work, everyone in your group has to use the same app. This is not a reasonable solution when the network can solve the problem with proper implementation of next generation SMS, properly called RCS.

    Source: https://mobilesyrup.com/2017/05/11/r...ada-explainer/

    Edit: It looks like Bell has also released it under the feature name "Advanced Messaging" last August.

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    Last edited by Ubershopper; 01-11-2018 at 03:20 AM.

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    ^I agree that they should implement RCS but you do Realize RCS goes through an internet connection just like imessage & whats app. But it does fall back to Regular normal SMS if RCS over internet isn't available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jattdesi View Post
    ^I agree that they should implement RCS but you do Realize RCS goes through an internet connection just like imessage & whats app. But it does fall back to Regular normal SMS if RCS over internet isn't available.
    Yes but at least it will not be reliant on a proprietary app. Also, with VoWiFi and pending VoLTE and the new bands, the fallback should be less and less common

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    iMessage does go through Apple's servers and are encrypted on both ends and in transit. The same goes for Whatsapp. But adding iMessage to RCS, will present a legal challenge if Apple ever finds out. Unless Apple strikes a deal. Which is unlikely given that iMessage is proprietary. Whatsapp is owned by Facebook, so they might have a chance with them, but might be unlikely.

    That option as of now, is a pipe dream. I don't see it happening. Google is Open Source, which allows this.

    Given Apple's distaste for nosy institutions like the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the United States Federal Court System, I still believe tying in iMessage to RCS, will definitely not be happening.

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    It sounds like you have a better handle in the Apple side. I think you are saying non-proprietary group messaging between Apple and Android is a pipe dream? That could be, but that would be very unfortunate for consumers.

    I'm not an apple guy but if I'm not mistaken, iMessage send messages to non-apple contacts via standard network SMS/MMS (green vs blue colour with stock settings) ?

    Regardless, I do have a sense of the legal issues since RCS will be processed via a server, who has control of it, will there need to be separate servers in Canada vs the USA, separate servers for each network? I have read that Google is pushing for a centralized hub, but there are lots of legal issues surrounding privacy, etc to be ironed out there.

    Anyhow, my point was, Rogers/Fido has it running. Reportedly Bell had something called Advanced Messaging that sounds like RCS. Android Messages, Textra and Hancent (to name a few) all have settings to handle group messaging as chat. And yet, it won't work until Freedom supports it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver8666 View Post
    iMessage does go through Apple's servers and are encrypted on both ends and in transit. The same goes for Whatsapp. But adding iMessage to RCS, will present a legal challenge if Apple ever finds out. Unless Apple strikes a deal. Which is unlikely given that iMessage is proprietary. Whatsapp is owned by Facebook, so they might have a chance with them, but might be unlikely.

    That option as of now, is a pipe dream. I don't see it happening. Google is Open Source, which allows this.

    Given Apple's distaste for nosy institutions like the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the United States Federal Court System, I still believe tying in iMessage to RCS, will definitely not be happening.
    This is the biggest downfall to iMessage if you ask me. Many (probably the majority) of the people I text have iMessage, and I doubt I could convince a single one of them do download anything else to contact me with, so I'm still relying heavily on SMS. Unfortunately, Google's messaging ecosystem is a NIGHTMARE, and they are witholding SMS integration from Allo, despite heavy demand to add it, which is infuriating to me. There is no way I will switch to an iPhone, I love to tinker with the OS, and much of what I do is impossible with IOS. If Apple released iMessage for Android, I'm sure many other Android loyalists would start using it, but Apple has kept it proprietary, which I understand, but hate, and all of Google's attempts have failed so far, because of their stubbornness, and I don't see them changing that anytime soon. I don't think we will see a unified standard anytime soon, but RCS is a good start

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    Quote Originally Posted by qag01 View Post
    This is the biggest downfall to iMessage if you ask me. Many (probably the majority) of the people I text have iMessage, and I doubt I could convince a single one of them do download anything else to contact me with, so I'm still relying heavily on SMS. Unfortunately, Google's messaging ecosystem is a NIGHTMARE, and they are witholding SMS integration from Allo, despite heavy demand to add it, which is infuriating to me. There is no way I will switch to an iPhone, I love to tinker with the OS, and much of what I do is impossible with IOS. If Apple released iMessage for Android, I'm sure many other Android loyalists would start using it, but Apple has kept it proprietary, which I understand, but hate, and all of Google's attempts have failed so far, because of their stubbornness, and I don't see them changing that anytime soon. I don't think we will see a unified standard anytime soon, but RCS is a good start

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    They have their reasons for it, 2 of them are listed here. iOS11 was centered on "the privacy of the end user", due to San Bernadino (that would be a major reason, despite what happened) and so far as I know not one governmental agency has managed to crack an encrypted iPhone after this was released. There was that case out in Texas where all the Feds had to do was to touch the suspects fingerprint to the Home key. 48 hours later the phone goes on lockdown and Apple tells the Feds "oh well, tough ****, we aren't helping you out now. We offered when this happened". If it's passcode locked, they have 10 tries before the phone "nukes" itself and erases all the data. And obviously you aren't giving up that. And it can withstand so called "brute force" attacks. Courts from what I understand are very reluctant to compel defendants to hand over passwords if something is encrypted. It could fall under "self-incrimination" as well, but I'm no bright legal eagle. Down there, different circuits have different opinions, and it's not unified as one. Up here, it's unified as one.

    Remember in San Bernadino, the FBI wanted Apple to release an iOS version that had a back door. Apple said no. Even under court order, Apple said no. The FBI ended up paying some firm a million dollars to get the info off that phone. Nice waste of taxpayers money huh? I'd call it that. Given that the FBI was told no in the first place, and told the US Federal Court System to go screw themselves when the FBI used the "All Writs Act". Let's drain the taxpayer purse. Apple was correct in this one. To create an iOS version with that kind of a back door and in the hands of the FBI, is just the same as a hydrogen bomb being dropped. Apple knew the FBI would abuse that. That's why they said no, and they said no all the way until the FBI dived into the taxpayer purse to fish out a million dollars. I'd question that myself, but apparently in the States, they don't ask "such questions" and even if they did they would be labeled as "blasphemy". I lived down there for 14 years. I know what it's like. I don't know how many times I've heard "it's in the name of National Security" to which I'd reply "you need to be doing something better with your time" (and yes I lived in the States when 9/11 happened). Do not get me started on the whackjob that's in there now. I hate him with a passion. When he was elected I kid you not at 2am I said "how the f--- does this happen?" I took great delight in slamming Dubya. After that freak got elected, I said "no more" To this day I have not said anything about the W. administration. But all politics aside.

    Also for the record, Microsoft wont unencrypt hard drives either, if they are encrypted. Same stuff the FBI asked Microsoft to do, and they said no. If they are unencrypted, free game. But if they are encrypted, well...........

    Sure, if Apple released iMessage and FaceTime for Android, it would be great, but I'm sure someone dreamed this up sitting on the toilet somewhere. But it would also mean that Apple's terms rule the roost, including encryption the whole way around. RCS, while it's a good idea, falls far short of this.

    If we're talking about Android Messaging, that is a mess. Half the time my texts weren't received by the other party. And yes you can tinker with an Android, it's Open Source. An iPhone, is not. As far as stubbornness, that would make 2. Don't you think? Google failing to implement SMS within Allo and of course Apple.

    If this were to come to pass, then Apple would be given the say in it and should be allowed to develop it. And I'm not faulting people for their choice of smartphones, it's what the user feels comfortable with. You with an Pixel 2XL, me with a 6S Plus. Your contributions are well appreciated on here for our Android users. I might post with extra strong coffee in my system hyperactive as hell, but then again.......
    Last edited by Driver8666; 01-11-2018 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Several edits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubershopper View Post
    It sounds like you have a better handle in the Apple side. I think you are saying non-proprietary group messaging between Apple and Android is a pipe dream? That could be, but that would be very unfortunate for consumers.

    I'm not an apple guy but if I'm not mistaken, iMessage send messages to non-apple contacts via standard network SMS/MMS (green vs blue colour with stock settings) ?

    Regardless, I do have a sense of the legal issues since RCS will be processed via a server, who has control of it, will there need to be separate servers in Canada vs the USA, separate servers for each network? I have read that Google is pushing for a centralized hub, but there are lots of legal issues surrounding privacy, etc to be ironed out there.

    Anyhow, my point was, Rogers/Fido has it running. Reportedly Bell had something called Advanced Messaging that sounds like RCS. Android Messages, Textra and Hancent (to name a few) all have settings to handle group messaging as chat. And yet, it won't work until Freedom supports it.

    Sent from my LG-H933 using Tapatalk
    Unfortunately, it has to remain that way. But to answer your question, yes, iMessage separates iMessage users from non iMessage users using blue (iMessage) and green (non-iMessage user). I still believe it's a pipe dream, but as I mentioned before, if RCS is to happen, then Apple should be given complete control over development and implementation due to what they had to put up with from the G-Men. This may or may not happen.

    There are a load of privacy issues involved and after Edward Snowden, these would need to be addressed before this ever comes to pass. This in itself is almost impossible due to complex legal issues. Freedom may support it at some point.

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    Until there's group MMS I'll just blast photos out by MMS to a group of people fully knowing they can only reply to me. For group chat there's Facebook Messenger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ipberg View Post
    Until there's group MMS I'll just blast photos out by MMS to a group of people fully knowing they can only reply to me. For group chat there's Facebook Messenger.
    Loads of ways around that. Facebook Messenger is one.

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    RCS update from Business Insider claims, "Google is wagering that RCS will make Android more competitive with iOS while improving the attractiveness of the OS's native messaging client compared with chat apps."

    They also indicate that in the global market, RCS will overtake SMS revenues in 2018.

    https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/an...070300861.html



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubershopper View Post
    RCS update from Business Insider claims, "Google is wagering that RCS will make Android more competitive with iOS while improving the attractiveness of the OS's native messaging client compared with chat apps."

    They also indicate that in the global market, RCS will overtake SMS revenues in 2018.

    https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/an...070300861.html



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    This is all speculation at this point. Google has their own issues with their messaging app, and the fact that because of heavy demand, they won't implement SMS into Allo.

    They will lose this wager unless they incorporate SMS messaging into Allo. And I heavily doubt it'll dent iOS. iMessage is tied into whatever iOS is floating around out there, and is flawless in my opinion. You have a long way to go before you do that. Getting SMS intergration into Allo is a start. Without this, Google can forget about RCS.

    Time will tell, but it's all speculation due to the issues with Allo and their own messaging app.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver8666 View Post
    This is all speculation at this point. Google has their own issues with their messaging app, and the fact that because of heavy demand, they won't implement SMS into Allo.

    They will lose this wager unless they incorporate SMS messaging into Allo. And I heavily doubt it'll dent iOS. iMessage is tied into whatever iOS is floating around out there, and is flawless in my opinion. You have a long way to go before you do that. Getting SMS intergration into Allo is a start. Without this, Google can forget about RCS.

    Time will tell, but it's all speculation due to the issues with Allo and their own messaging app.
    Its not speculation. It is coming. As I've already said, Rogers has rolled it out. Bell appears to have rolled it out. Google has rolled it out with many carriers globally. You keep criticizing Allo but that's not relevant to this issue. Android messenger is the default app that Google has asked manufacturers to use. It is fully capable of SMS, MMS, amd RCS.

    To get back to the point of the thread; android users with Freedom are missing out on group messaging capability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver8666 View Post
    This is all speculation at this point. Google has their own issues with their messaging app, and the fact that because of heavy demand, they won't implement SMS into Allo.

    They will lose this wager unless they incorporate SMS messaging into Allo. And I heavily doubt it'll dent iOS. iMessage is tied into whatever iOS is floating around out there, and is flawless in my opinion. You have a long way to go before you do that. Getting SMS intergration into Allo is a start. Without this, Google can forget about RCS.
    While technically not true, you have a point here. Google has to be one of the most indecisive companies around when it comes to messaging, we had Hangouts, which was almost perfect actually, but wasn't marketed properly. Instead of removing the calling features and just rebranding it as Allo and Duo, they made the present day Allo, that has no SMS integration (they have stated that this is because they want to move everyone away from the aging SMS standard, while turning their backs to the fact that Allo is preinstalled on many phones, and enabling SMS integration would increase its adoption rates diminishing SMS use; their logic is totally backwards) and is a failure IMO. Why RCS/Android Messenger aren't merged with Allo is beyond me. Because of their complete neglegence to give users what they want, my hopes for RCS are not high right now. Add in the fact that carriers like Verizon, TMobile, Bell etc decided not to use the standard implemented by Google and instead use their own proprietary standard, which aren't interconnected with the primary Google backbone, and you get the total cluster**** that is RCS right now



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubershopper View Post
    Its not speculation. It is coming. As I've already said, Rogers has rolled it out. Bell appears to have rolled it out. Google has rolled it out with many carriers globally. You keep criticizing Allo but that's not relevant to this issue. Android messenger is the default app that Google has asked manufacturers to use. It is fully capable of SMS, MMS, amd RCS.

    To get back to the point of the thread; android users with Freedom are missing out on group messaging capability.

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    Still speculation, due to the problems with Android Messenger. They want you to use Android Messenger, which is their choice, but with the load of problems it has? RCS could solve this, the networks will be more than happy to support this, but, it's not going to beat iMessage. iMessage is intergrated into iOS. RCS probably is not. I'll let you have the upper hand on the viewpoint though. Android Messenger is separate. iMessage is not. RCS would need to be tied into the OS like iMessage and then you can force that pill down the manufacturers throat. While you're at it, you can also hold a gun to provider's heads and tell them to do this or else. It's coming, yes, I'll let you have that, but without a "unifying standard" like iMessage, it's going to fail. I keep going back to Allo, because if Google had any sort of "faculties" they could've used Allo as a springboard for RCS, and then once it's almost perfect, rebrand it as RCS.

    [QUOTE=qag01;16952072]While technically not true, you have a point here. Google has to be one of the most indecisive companies around when it comes to messaging, we had Hangouts, which was almost perfect actually, but wasn't marketed properly. Instead of removing the calling features and just rebranding it as Allo and Duo, they made the present day Allo, that has no SMS integration (they have stated that this is because they want to move everyone away from the aging SMS standard, while turning their backs to the fact that Allo is preinstalled on many phones, and enabling SMS integration would increase its adoption rates diminishing SMS use; their logic is totally backwards) and is a failure IMO. Why RCS/Android Messenger aren't merged with Allo is beyond me. Because of their complete neglegence to give users what they want, my hopes for RCS are not high right now. Add in the fact that carriers like Verizon, TMobile, Bell etc decided not to use the standard implemented by Google and instead use their own proprietary standard, which aren't interconnected with the primary Google backbone, and you get the total cluster**** that is RCS right now

    How can you move everyone from the SMS standard? People will still use it. The one thing that SMS has the advantage of, is it doesn't need a data connection. With iMessage, there is a setting where you can send it as SMS if the data network is not available. I've had messages sent this way when the network has "indigestion". RCS and Allo should have this in as "standard".

    Proprietary standards used by carriers is going to be a tough hurdle. You have to have everyone on board. iMessage doesn't suffer from this.

    Only time will tell if RCS will be like iMessage. Sorry for the way this looks. The editing screwed up something.

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