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Thread: T-Mobile: 5G mmWave deployments will never materially scale

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    Exactly. When you live in the boonies, you have to know you're going to be missing out on things urban-dwellers take for granted.
    Right... you gain clean air and wide open spaces over good Thai food and fast internet.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    Exactly. When you live in the boonies, you have to know you're going to be missing out on things urban-dwellers take for granted.
    As someone that has lived in both urban (Los Angeles) and the boonies (Northwestern Ontario - Canada), there are advantages and disadvantages to both. There's a lot more freedom in the boonies, but also a lot more boom/bust in rural areas. In the urban/concrete jungle, people end up being part of having more opportunities, but a lot more competition, resulting in longer days, more commuting and working in 'the system'. Even in the town (<1000 people, nearest Walmart = 200 miles), it has 2 local wireless carriers - 1LTE, 1HSPA+, ADSL+ 25Mbps (gack) and cable internet at 100Mbps.
    AT&T... your world, throttled.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by p6B5Nm5b View Post
    Right... you gain clean air and wide open spaces over good Thai food and fast internet.
    The air in the country doesn't seem all that fresh when they spread manure in Spring. On calm days in the Fall, when the wood burners start burning, the smoke is as bad as Bejing, and the smell is as bad as manure spreading. ;~>

    In the absence of a government mandate requiring it, I have no illusion that cell companies are obligated to provide me with 5G mm-wave or data speeds as good as in a metro area.

    The limited range of mm-wave signal doesn't make any sense in the country.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilvla2 View Post
    We ALL deserve access to the things that enable us to prosper, and have the same chances at succeeding, THAT is America. Ever hear of the REA, or TVA?
    Everyone in America has access to things that enable people to prosper... sometimes it just might not be locally available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdevnul View Post
    The air in the country doesn't seem all that fresh when they spread manure in Spring. On calm days in the Fall, when the wood burners start burning, the smoke is as bad as Bejing, and the smell is as bad as manure spreading. ;~>

    In the absence of a government mandate requiring it, I have no illusion that cell companies are obligated to provide me with 5G mm-wave or data speeds as good as in a metro area.

    The limited range of mm-wave signal doesn't make any sense in the country.
    I would tend to agree. mmWave is effectively what telco's that never invested in fiber to the home wish to deploy for capacity's sake. Rural areas typically don't have the capacity issue, unless carriers just didn't deploy much of their capacity/backhaul in the first place.

    Similarly, not many places have wood burning like they used to, and manure smell is typically those in the 'farming' areas like the central valley in California.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    Neville Ray said:

    “Millimeter wave (mmWave) spectrum has great potential in terms of speed and capacity, but it doesn’t travel far from the cell site and doesn’t penetrate materials at all,” Ray said. “It will never materially scale beyond small pockets of 5G hotspots in dense urban environments.”


    T-Mobile: 5G mmWave deployments ‘will never materially scale’
    Yet they bought a ton of 24 GHz and 28 GHz spectrum. Especially 24 GHz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    Yet they bought a ton of 24 GHz and 28 GHz spectrum. Especially 24 GHz
    So have they released the results of the FCC Auction 101 and 102 yet? I just did a quick search and couldn't find any information on the two auctions that should be releasing the winners any day now. I sure hope T-Mobile purchased a lot since outside of the metro areas with cell phones, it can be used for tower Backhaul and Fixed Wireless for homes where they have outside antenna to avoid the penetration issues of the mmWave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    So have they released the results of the FCC Auction 101 and 102 yet? I just did a quick search and couldn't find any information on the two auctions that should be releasing the winners any day now. I sure hope T-Mobile purchased a lot since outside of the metro areas with cell phones, it can be used for tower Backhaul and Fixed Wireless for homes where they have outside antenna to avoid the penetration issues of the mmWave.
    Yep. https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/p...eports/results

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    Quote Originally Posted by p6B5Nm5b View Post
    Right... you gain clean air and wide open spaces over good Thai food and fast internet.
    Having lived in urban, suburban, medium town and rural, my experience is that sadly - the noise level is high in all of them. I used to live on an acre, and nevertheless, the power saws and barking dogs carry over long distances. Back in the 20th Century, there were much fewer dogs and power tools, and so it was much quieter most places.

    I ended up moving to an obscure beach town in the middle of nowhere, but near a college, and so I do have clean air and great Thai food. Charter offers 940 Mbps here, but I have no need for anything more than the 120 Mbps cheap tier.

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    I'm glad to see T-Mobile get as much mm wave as they did. Should be good for high population spots. In rural areas I've had great experience with T-Mobile in the past. For me its been congestion issues and generally not coverage problems

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    Yet they bought a ton of 24 GHz and 28 GHz spectrum. Especially 24 GHz
    LeGere basically said mmwave was useless just a couple of months ago. He's such a marketing exec - he'll say anything.

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    He's right. mmWave is never going to scale out well. A lot of people haven't thought it through very well, but the basic problem is that with small cells spaced closed enough to make mmWave do a whole lot, the 4G LTE network will already be so dense that mmWave won't be needed in all but a few of the most dense situations. Music festivals and very large sports and concert venues are probably examples of places where mmWave would make sense. However, for indoor venues that have permanent DAS's, mmWave is less necessary, since the antenna density can be really high, and they can be highly sectorized. So outdoor music festivals, Times Square, and the like are probably the most likely places where mmWave will work for more, and that's a highly specialized application.

    I think Verizon will be successful, however, in using it for home internet, but it will only be profitable since it can piggy-back on the infrastructure that they need for capacity on their LTE network, as it would probably be a loser if it had to stand on it's own. AT&T could also use it for backhaul for their MDU internet installations, much like Starry does, and possibly combine those with macro or micro wireless sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilvla2 View Post
    We ALL deserve access to the things that enable us to prosper, and have the same chances at succeeding, THAT is America. Ever hear of the REA, or TVA?
    Exactly. It's completely insane that some people seem to think that rural people don't deserve, or can't benefit from decent connectivity, both wired and wireless, just because they live in a rural area. It's shameful how many areas don't have broadband, and how many areas don't have good cell service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    Verizon doesn't own any Band 71 so don't understand why you posted the CA for Band 71. Verizon hitched their wagon to mmWave instead of bidding on 600 Mhz Band 71. However the Verizon congestion issue is from several news articles like the one below that all of Verizon's spectrum bands are already congested more than any other network in the world. Please I hope that Verizon takes 10% to 15% of their current spectrum off line to refarm into Band 71. Verizon would lose customers by the ton if they had people losing customers while paying extra for Verizon.
    Verizon will most likely end up building out Comcast's B71, whether through a lease, buy, or trade, and there is some B71 owned by speculators that Verizon could pick up as well. It will help in the markets they can get it, but it's not a whole lot, and Verizon will still be way short on spectrum.

    OOPS! Maybe it wasn't such a good idea sitting out of auctions, not buying enough spectrum in the auctions they did participate in, not bidding on FirstNET, and then taking T-Mobile's bait on UDPs. They should have let Sprint and T-Mobile battle out UDPs, let AT&T bundle them with TV, and sit out of the mess. Either that, or they should have kept their tiered data as their primary option and offered really expensive UDPs that few people would actually pay for.

    Verizon really needs some of DISH's spectrum, it's a shame that DISH is squatting on it. If Verizon could get the bulk of DISH's mid-band, they would be close to where AT&T is on spectrum.

    It's crazy to think that about 10 years ago, spectrum was barely a consideration for capacity, because the T-1 lines feeding them couldn't saturate a handful of HSPA+ or EVDO channels, and the big challenge at that time was getting fiber lines out to the congested sites so that they could actually utilize all of the spectrum that they were already running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFan76 View Post
    He's right. mmWave is never going to scale out well. A lot of people haven't thought it through very well, but the basic problem is that with small cells spaced closed enough to make mmWave do a whole lot, the 4G LTE network will already be so dense that mmWave won't be needed in all but a few of the most dense situations.
    You know little 4G spectrum there is? Not counting Sprint's 2.5 GHz spectrum no other carrier has even 100 MHz for downlink. You can small cell, you can LTE-A, 5X CA et ect the hell out that spectrum and you're still going to be stuck with plans that have low depri levels and gimped hotspot in any decently sized city because that little spectrum isn't going to cut it. People want to be able to have their cell phone plan also be their home internet plan. That means allowing at least 1 TB a month per line. That's not happening on 4G.

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