Italy Travel

[elecconnec]

It seems that once we get to the point that the sim slot is eliminated, dual esim could be the new minimum standard. I think that as the general public becomes aware of dual sim capability, they'll begin to adopt it. I imagine it's cheaper to build a second esim chip into a phone than the sim carrier and associated hardware, not to mention the space savings.

I vaguely remember a saying from back in the 80's relating to computers. Something about anything that can be done with hardware will end up being done with software.

I'm not suggesting it wouldn't be easy or cheap to implement. I'm suggesting that it simply won't happen on a large scale, because wireless carriers don't want it to happen, and they're still there major consumer of cell phones, not the actual end users.

Sure, some of us might buy our phones direct, or from an Apple store, but the vast majority of us still buy from our carriers, on a payment plan. AT&T, Verizon, et al, will apply considerable pressure on phone vendors (including Apple) to keep phones as carrier-friendly as possible. (And before you claim Apple isn't beholden to carriers, think again- one can point to a variety of iPhone "features" going back to the original 2G iPhone that were designed solely for carriers' benefit, starting with download restrictions that required large app and media downloads to be done over WiFi, to curb excessive data usage on "unlimited" plans.)

Trust me- you don't have to sell me on the benefits of dual-SIM or eSIMs. I'm happy you got religion because Apple finally joined the dual-SIM world, but dual-SIM has been around just about forever and most people just don't care, because at the end of the day, it's a niche feature that very few folks need. (Particularly here on the T-Mo forum, because T-Mo offers the best international roaming rates of any US carrier!)

Even with the added convenience, I doubt most people really want to pay a second provider for a "missing" feature from their primary carrier (like international roaming, or coverage in an area their primary provider doesn't cover) when the far easier solution is to try and find one provider that does everything the consumer needs, even if the dual-SIM solution is a little bit cheaper. (Particularly the typical iPhone customer, who's already proven willing to pay more for "it just works" convenience! They're the most likely as a group to just use AT&T or Verizon and buy whatever overpriced international pass their carrier offers, rather than try to leverage a cheap US MVNO and couple it with a series of foreign eSIM services to cover overseas travel!)


Even when it ends up a pure software solution making the inclusion of multiple eSIMs "free", I doubt you'll see widespread adoption by consumers. Heck, most people can't even be bothered to use foreign SIMs when traveling now, preferring to roam for convenience, nor do I envision a bunch of AT&T or T-Mo prepaid customers chafing at the bit to add a second temporary service to cover them when they cross Nebraska or Wyoming.



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[daleraver]

I agree it will require the average consumer to demand this for it to become mainstream soon. The lower priced phones will need to have dual sim incorporated, not just the flagship devices. Business users are beginning to catch on though, and that exposure might trickle down to their family and friends somewhat. I'm not sure the carriers can put enough pressure on the phone industry to delay the inevitable. They haven't quit selling Apple & Samsung yet. Maybe when 5G is the standard, dual esim will be also.

I wonder how much the manufacturers would save on the whole esim implementation inc. the waterproofing, etc.? I'd guess for a company like Samsung and the number of phones they produce, just a dollar or two might make it worthwhile.

[DRNewcomb]

...... but dual-SIM has been around just about forever and most people just don't care, because at the end of the day, it's a niche feature that very few folks need. (Particularly here on the T-Mo forum, because T-Mo offers the best international roaming rates of any US carrier!) .....

While dual-SIMs have been around a long time, for most of that time the second SIM has been a second-class SIM, limited to 2G only. In an environment where carriers have eliminated or depreciated 2G, it doesn't do a lot of good to have two SIMs when one is unusable. I'd say that T-Mobile users are a bit more techie than most and probably more aware of dual-SIMs than most. I'd like a dual-SIM phone to be able to use T-Mobile and PagePlus without needing two phones.

[wco81]

I looked at the offerings for eSIM a couple of months ago on my iPad Pro.

At least as of then, the offerings were not in any way price-competitive with going to a store.

There would have to be minimal price premium for eSIM for me to consider it.

[elecconnec]

I agree it will require the average consumer to demand this for it to become mainstream soon. The lower priced phones will need to have dual sim incorporated, not just the flagship devices. Business users are beginning to catch on though, and that exposure might trickle down to their family and friends somewhat. I'm not sure the carriers can put enough pressure on the phone industry to delay the inevitable. They haven't quit selling Apple & Samsung yet. Maybe when 5G is the standard, dual esim will be also.

I wonder how much the manufacturers would save on the whole esim implementation inc. the waterproofing, etc.? I'd guess for a company like Samsung and the number of phones they produce, just a dollar or two might make it worthwhile.

I'm afraid you might be looking at this through an Apple-colored lens.

Dual-SIM (at least dual-physical SIM) isn't a flagship feature by any stretch of the imagination. My first dual-SIM smartphone cost $99 brand-new. (It was a low-end Blu.) I doubt eSIM will be held up for cost issues- I suspect it's just as cheap if not cheaper than integration of physical SIMs. Features, even cheap ones, tend to launch on flagships first just to insure flagships are "complete" in terms of features. (Except headphone jacks, apparently...)

If you really think about it, the original analog phones from the 1980s had "eSIMs", as well as all TDMA and CDMA phones. Except then we called them NAMs ("Number Assignment Modules", IIRC) and they could be programmed to work on any compatible carrier. There were even dual-NAM phones (in fact most analog and TDMA phones were dual-NAM before analog cellular disappeared) used for exactly the same reasons we'd use dual-SIM today. And most people didn't use dual-NAM then any more than they use dual-SIM today!

As they say, "Everything old is new again...".

[DRNewcomb]

...... And most people didn't use dual-NAM then any more than they use dual-SIM today!.......

I made use of the 2nd NAM on my Nokia 2170 (?) when I visited Canada and got a temporary Rogers prepaid account.

[elecconnec]

While dual-SIMs have been around a long time, for most of that time the second SIM has been a second-class SIM, limited to 2G only. In an environment where carriers have eliminated or depreciated 2G, it doesn't do a lot of good to have two SIMs when one is unusable. I'd say that T-Mobile users are a bit more techie than most and probably more aware of dual-SIMs than most. I'd like a dual-SIM phone to be able to use T-Mobile and PagePlus without needing two phones.

The depreciation of 2G is a relatively recent phenomena, however, and 4G/3G dual SIM phones (as well as dual-LTE phones) have been available for awhile. The problem with most of them, however, is band coverage. Most of the "good" dual-SIM phones are built for the ROW ("rest of world") and lack necessary 3G and 4G bands needed for any realistic use in the US (e.g. LTE 71, or 850 MHz 3G).

I have too many devices missing the latest T-Mo bands to add more to my collection, even if they are dual-SIM!

The newer Google Pixels would be my most likely target, when T-Mo gets off its duff and officially supports the Pixel's eSIM, leaving the physical slot for a good data backup like PagePlus or (my current preference) FreedomPop. (With T-Mo's Digits feature, I only need data access as a backup service.)


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[daleraver]

Dual esim is coming and it's just a matter of time before it's the standard, not the exception.

On one hand you say the carriers don't want it to happen, then turn right around and say most consumers don't really want it. So, why should carriers feel so threatened? If they don't want to support dual esim phones then I can switch to a carrier that does if it becomes necessary. I'm pretty sure they understand that concept already.

The genie is out of the bottle.

[DRNewcomb]

.....and lack necessary 3G and 4G bands needed for any realistic use in the US (e.g. LTE 71, or 850 MHz 3G).......

This is really the situation. The number of dual-SIM phones that support band 71 are very few and rather expensive. Not the $99 Blu you mentioned earlier.

[elecconnec]

This is really the situation. The number of dual-SIM phones that support band 71 are very few and rather expensive. Not the $99 Blu you mentioned earlier.

Yup. We need reprogrammable "soft radios" far more than we need software-based SIMs!





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[veriztd]

Yup. We need reprogrammable "soft radios" far more than we need software-based SIMs!

Don't forget that SIM cards were originally designed to add an additional level of security as a hardware solution to prevent phone cloning that did occur with TDMA/Analog devices. Every time the phone connects to the cellular network, it broadcasts the SIM # to the carrier to ensure that the correct SIM is associated with the correct phone #. Until the technology radically changes, not much chance of their replacement any time soon.

[tricon23]

Well the vacation is coming to a close and kudos to TMO partnering with TIM wireless. I got decent service while the phone said LTE for facebook etc and general surfing and email. My VZ and (sister in law and husband)phone that had I-WIND service was not as good. Simple things like sharing my location through IPhone was a challenge. Other than that this place was a treat to visit and had wonderful experiences and views from urban places to the Tuscany vineyards. Please put this place on your bucket list.

[veriztd]

Tmobile has a roaming agreement with TIM, along with all of the other big 3 providers, nothing too special about that. I just got back from my trip to Italy using my Sprint phone roaming on TIM frequently.

[bukzin]

I'd like to see the next iteration of phones equipped with 2 or more esims. It would make it easier to switch either line on the fly, and if they kept a sim slot, then you could still fall back for carriers who haven't changed over to esim.

I currently have T-Mobile, Verizon, and AT&T available on my phone with any 2 running at the same time.

Which phone do you have? Running Android 10?

[daleraver]

iPhone Pro Max, I am currently on iOS 13.2 Beta 4.

My standard configuration is T-Mobile esim voice & data, Xfinity voice & data nano sim, and Airalo esim data only. Actually I cannot have both esim carriers active at the same time, but otherwise it's a pretty versatile setup that should cover most situations. Call forwarding helps when absolutely necessary, but texts do not forward.