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Thread: Why isnt T-Mobiles and AT&Ts mmwave equivalent to Verizons?

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    Why isnt T-Mobiles and AT&Ts mmwave equivalent to Verizons?

    https://youtu.be/gKVq0oVaKYQ


    https://youtu.be/gKVq0oVaKYQ

    Im not bashing either carrier. Just inquiring as to why its not even close?


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    I've pulled over 1.5Gbps on AT&T mmWave in a few spots, T-Mobile is rocking mostly 600MHz LTE and that's all i've personally played with but for what it was with only running in 600MHz it was respectable.

    5G is in it's infancy, and will not be anything meaningful for at least a year, most likely two.

    as far as Verizon though, they will have *somewhat* of an advantage for mmWave as they've had to severely densify thanks to having the smallest spectrum holdings per customer, so they have a lot more microcells than both AT&T and T-Mobile.
    Verizon: Grandfathered UDP
    T-Mobile: Magenta Amplified (airline employee plan)
    AT&T: Premium & More w/ Free 100Mbps VDSL2 "for life"
    Sprint: Premium Unlimited (for 100GB hotspot!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnotes20191 View Post
    https://youtu.be/gKVq0oVaKYQ


    https://youtu.be/gKVq0oVaKYQ

    Im not bashing either carrier. Just inquiring as to why its not even close?


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    TMobile anyway doesn't own as much. Sprint did bought some which TMO does get now too but I don't think it's as much as VZW

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    Different strokes. Some people used to get upset that Verizon had all this rural LTE while AT&T had a lot of places with only HSPA(+). The point was that Verizon had no choice. EV-DO just wouldn't cut it any more. Their only upgrade path was to LTE. OTOH AT&T had extensive low-band 3.5G service that was "good 'nuf" for low-usage rural areas and didn't need to kill themselves upgrading to LTE.

    Now, Verizon once again, has no choice. They don't have the low-mid band spectrum to upgrade to 5G like T-Mobile now has. They have to produce a dense, high-speed mmWave 5G network or they'll have none. T-Mobile has their "layer cake" of low, mid and mm bands and can afford to take a more relaxed approach to the mmWave service, while they're busy deploying band-41.
    Donald Newcomb

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    Different strokes. Some people used to get upset that Verizon had all this rural LTE while AT&T had a lot of places with only HSPA(+). The point was that Verizon had no choice. EV-DO just wouldn't cut it any more. Their only upgrade path was to LTE. OTOH AT&T had extensive low-band 3.5G service that was "good 'nuf" for low-usage rural areas and didn't need to kill themselves upgrading to LTE.

    Now, Verizon once again, has no choice. They don't have the low-mid band spectrum to upgrade to 5G like T-Mobile now has. They have to produce a dense, high-speed mmWave 5G network or they'll have none. T-Mobile has their "layer cake" of low, mid and mm bands and can afford to take a more relaxed approach to the mmWave service, while they're busy deploying band-41.
    Vzw will be doing lowband 5G starting this July. B5 and possibly 13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thotguy31 View Post
    Vzw will be doing lowband 5G starting this July. B5 and possibly 13....
    And they have to depreciate CDMA in order to increase band-5 LTE in order for that to happen. BTW, the band-5 licensees really need to get together and petition the FCC to sort out the strange layout of the cellular A & B blocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thotguy31 View Post
    Vzw will be doing lowband 5G starting this July. B5 and possibly 13.

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    Thing is, they do not have enough B5/B13 to do anything meaningful, and not to mention their puny midband holdings.

    T-Mobile finally go an upperhand in the radio config. This is going to be VERY interesting to see this play out over the next 5yrs for sure, as if T-Mobile plays this right they can bring some meaningful competition even in the suburbs and small towns that Verizon will barely bother with when it comes to mmWave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    Thing is, they do not have enough B5/B13 to do anything meaningful, and not to mention their puny midband holdings.

    T-Mobile finally go an upperhand in the radio config. This is going to be VERY interesting to see this play out over the next 5yrs for sure, as if T-Mobile plays this right they can bring some meaningful competition even in the suburbs and small towns that Verizon will barely bother with when it comes to mmWave.
    B71 isn't anything meaningful either. Your also forgetting Cband, CBRS and that vzw has no less than 15x15 of AWS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thotguy31 View Post
    B71 isn't anything meaningful either. Your also forgetting Cband, CBRS and that vzw has no less than 15x15 of AWS.

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    A solid 35MHz chunk is gonna do A LOT more than 10x10 on 700, and 12.5x12.5 on 850, in the simple fact that it's a single, cohesive channel. T-Mobile will also have that tiny 10Mhz block in 700MHz to shove the last bit of LTE onto, freeing up 600MHz exclusively for 5G.

    C-Band and CBRS, T-Mobile will also have access too, so that's not really an advantage, and T-Mobile having AWS/PCS/CBRS/B41/etc. They still have much stronger low/midband holdings than Verizon.

    Verizon really screwed the pooch by sitting idle, while even AT&T was busy getting government contracts, picking up B29/B30 for supplemental, B14 nationwide license, etc.. T-Mobile snatched up Sprint and got ~190MHz in 2.5GHz ALONE, spent big for 600MHz, add in Sprint's PCS holdings, T-Mobile's PCS holdings, plus AWS.. it's not looking good for Verizon other than excessive CapEx to deal with lesser spectrum holdings.

    Verizon is no longer in a position to maintain number one, and I cannot wait to see how this plays out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thotguy31 View Post
    Vzw will be doing lowband 5G starting this July. B5 and possibly 13.

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    What with DSS in July? So DSS will flip back and forth in 1 millisecond cycles producing either 5G or LTE in each cycle in the same spectrum block. That is a lot of overhead cost that will reduce Speed in both 5G & LTE. DSS is a great advance in technology but it comes with a loss in spectrum efficiency. How much of a loss I don’t know. That is why T-Mobile’s is still questioning DSS even though after the merger that T-Mobile has 319.5 MHz of sub-6 GHz spectrum. However Neville did say that T-Mobile will use DSS in some instances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    A solid 35MHz chunk is gonna do A LOT more than 10x10 on 700, and 12.5x12.5 on 850, in the simple fact that it's a single, cohesive channel. T-Mobile will also have that tiny 10Mhz block in 700MHz to shove the last bit of LTE onto, freeing up 600MHz exclusively for 5G.

    C-Band and CBRS, T-Mobile will also have access too, so that's not really an advantage, and T-Mobile having AWS/PCS/CBRS/B41/etc. They still have much stronger low/midband holdings than Verizon.

    Verizon really screwed the pooch by sitting idle, while even AT&T was busy getting government contracts, picking up B29/B30 for supplemental, B14 nationwide license, etc.. T-Mobile snatched up Sprint and got ~190MHz in 2.5GHz ALONE, spent big for 600MHz, add in Sprint's PCS holdings, T-Mobile's PCS holdings, plus AWS.. it's not looking good for Verizon other than excessive CapEx to deal with lesser spectrum holdings.

    Verizon is no longer in a position to maintain number one, and I cannot wait to see how this plays out.
    Why do you mean shove more onto LTE? TMO tops out at 5x5 on B12 they don't have anymore for to go any higher. TMO can't do 10x10 on B12

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    To answer the original question, T-Mobile doesnt own nearly as much mmW as AT&T and Verizon today. They got a lot of 47 GHz by making Sprint purchase it but it doesnt have a band class yet. AT&T has about 800 MHz of 39 GHz to use and Verizon has 800 MHz of 28 and 39 GHz to use. I believe T-Mobile uses 50-200 MHz of their 24 or 39 GHz spectrum for current mmW.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thotguy31 View Post
    Why do you mean shove more onto LTE? TMO tops out at 5x5 on B12 they don't have anymore for to go any higher. TMO can't do 10x10 on B12

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    That's exactly what I mean, they do not need 600MHz for ANY LTE once this is going. 700MHz 5x5 can handle the remaining low band LTE needs without DSS. Verizon on the other hand will have to use DSS and loose spectral efficiency sharing both B13 and B5 with LTE and it's going to be a very long time before Verizon can even think about turning ALL of B13 into 5G, or B5 for that matter.

    T-Mobile has a fresh, brand new 35MHz block that can be all 5G from the beginning without doing much if any impact to the current experience (we are already used to barely, if at all using B71 for LTE as it is)

    Quote Originally Posted by jakeuten View Post
    To answer the original question, T-Mobile doesn’t own nearly as much mmW as AT&T and Verizon today. They got a lot of 47 GHz by making Sprint purchase it but it doesn’t have a band class yet. AT&T has about 800 MHz of 39 GHz to use and Verizon has 800 MHz of 28 and 39 GHz to use. I believe T-Mobile uses 50-200 MHz of their 24 or 39 GHz spectrum for current mmW.


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    I'm sure they'll be able to beef up mmWave later, as you *know* the FCC will find another few Ghz to auction off no problem when it's time.

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    Why isnt T-Mobiles and AT&Ts mmwave equivalent to Verizons?

    Something was clearly wrong with that TMo mmWave test. Hard to say what given so many variables. Small cell, backhaul, device config, etc.

    Aside from VZWs aggressive small cell deployment approach (for urban settings) the other key area theyve got going for them is their fiber backhaul.

    No other carrier can come close.

    Hopefully, VZW spends big on CBRS and C-Band, then they, too, will have a layer cake (once DSS comes online).


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    Quote Originally Posted by JSchnee21 View Post
    Something was clearly wrong with that TMo mmWave test. Hard to say what given so many variables. Small cell, backhaul, device config, etc.

    Aside from VZWs aggressive small cell deployment approach (for urban settings) the other key area theyve got going for them is their fiber backhaul.

    No other carrier can come close.

    Hopefully, VZW spends big on CBRS and C-Band, then they, too, will have a layer cake (once DSS comes online).


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    40 MHz on CBRS and up to 200 on C band

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