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Thread: Verizon says it will have the best 5G network by EOY 2024

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    Verizon says it will have the best 5G network by EOY 2024

    “The Internet wasn’t meant to be metered in bits and bytes, so it’s insane that wireless companies are still making you buy it this way. The rate plan is dead — it’s a fossil from a time when wireless was metered by every call or text.” John Legere 1/5/2017

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    I believe it. Once their C-Band spectrum is fully cleared, they’ll have similar amounts of licensed upper midband spectrum to T-Mobile. But unlike T-Mobile, Verizon is also deploying CBRS and mmWave, both of which are critical to keeping licensed midband spectrum uncongested.

    T-Mobile could, of course, also choose to finally start taking mmWave and CBRS seriously, but their leadership seems to have too much hubris to admit that n41 doesn’t have infinite capacity.

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    I am skeptical about that date since VZW has not really made any notable expansion of C Band since they added a few islands of coverage throughout the Cincinnati region which is rare to connect to. You mostly get either LTE or Nationwide 5G in that market even though their coverage map shows those areas as UW. Does that date include their entire service area or just in their most populated markets?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VVivian View Post
    I believe it. Once their C-Band spectrum is fully cleared, they’ll have similar amounts of licensed upper midband spectrum to T-Mobile. But unlike T-Mobile, Verizon is also deploying CBRS and mmWave, both of which are critical to keeping licensed midband spectrum uncongested.

    T-Mobile could, of course, also choose to finally start taking mmWave and CBRS seriously, but their leadership seems to have too much hubris to admit that n41 doesn’t have infinite capacity.
    I do not believe T Mobile has even reached capacity on their N41 and I suspect the issue with areas of slow data speeds on N41 are caused by not enough backhaul capacity to the cell site. I think T Mobile would be better off adding backhaul and some type of backup power solutions to their cell sites. T Mobile would have to densify their network before they could even think about deploying CBRS unless the FCC allows wireless carriers to go full power on that band and I do not see T Mobile having enough capital to deploy mmWave throughout their entire coverage footprint at this time that could change in the future if their financials improve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by techguru30 View Post
    I am skeptical about that date since VZW has not really made any notable expansion of C Band since they added a few islands of coverage throughout the Cincinnati region which is rare to connect to. You mostly get either LTE or Nationwide 5G in that market even though their coverage map shows those areas as UW. Does that date include their entire service area or just in their most populated markets?
    Those are good questions. Here in Oklahoma, in the one PEA where Verizon is allowed to use C-Band, since the initial turn-on, they have added 2 new additional sites. That’s it. Not exactly what I would consider a rapid rollout. In two more years, T-Mobile will have an even larger 5G network than they do now, how much larger no one knows, but Verizon will be starting at a severe disadvantag. Some say that they are insalling C-Band on hundreds of sites per month right now so that they can just flip a switch and have the entire country turned on all at once, but I think that is a total pipe-dream. I think it wil be “select cities” and “select markets” for years after they start the turn-on process at the end of 2024, just like it has been with every other version of cellular technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by techguru30 View Post
    I do not believe T Mobile has even reached capacity on their N41 and I suspect the issue with areas of slow data speeds on N41 are caused by not enough backhaul capacity to the cell site. I think T Mobile would be better off adding backhaul and some type of backup power solutions to their cell sites. T Mobile would have to densify their network before they could even think about deploying CBRS unless the FCC allows wireless carriers to go full power on that band and I do not see T Mobile having enough capital to deploy mmWave throughout their entire coverage footprint at this time that could change in the future if their financials improve.
    I didn't say they have.

    I was referencing this article, which cites a study that concluded that the USA's cellular networks' specifically dense urban sub-6 GHz capacity will begin to run out next year, even with the additions of C-Band, CBRS, and n41, meaning that the carriers absolutely, objectively have to put the pedal to the metal on building dense urban mmWave to offload traffic from sub-6.

    Emphasis on "dense urban." People in the past have argued with this assertion by saying that their area's cellular networks aren't anywhere near congested, which is beside the point unless you live in the most populous part of a major city.

    AT&T and T-Mobile really, urgently need to build a lot of mmWave sites in places like downtown Chicago, downtown Los Angeles, downtown Austin, and downtown Washington DC. Verizon also needs to accelerate their mmWave build, but not to the same degree as the other two — which seem to have almost completely halted the deployment of new mmWave coverage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VVivian View Post
    I didn't say they have.

    I was referencing this article, which cites a study that concluded that the USA's cellular networks' specifically dense urban sub-6 GHz capacity will begin to run out next year, even with the additions of C-Band, CBRS, and n41, meaning that the carriers absolutely, objectively have to put the pedal to the metal on building dense urban mmWave to offload traffic from sub-6.

    Emphasis on "dense urban." People in the past have argued with this assertion by saying that their area's cellular networks aren't anywhere near congested, which is beside the point unless you live in the most populous part of a major city.

    AT&T and T-Mobile really, urgently need to build a lot of mmWave sites in places like downtown Chicago, downtown Los Angeles, downtown Austin, and downtown Washington DC. Verizon also needs to accelerate their mmWave build, but not to the same degree as the other two — which seem to have almost completely halted the deployment of new mmWave coverage.
    I think NR in the mmWave bands is incredible, and will become more necessary as time goes on, however I think that study vastly overstates how soon that will be. Density and technology advances like MU-MIMO will allow sub 6GHz to sustain bigger loads for years. With just densification alone, Verizon has managed to eek out acceptable performance in most circumstances with only 40-60MHz of B2, B5, B13, and B66 for a decade. Yes, Verizon has congested towers, but most aren't. Adding 140-200MHz of C-Band + 30-100MHz of CBRS will provide up to 6X as much spectrum in some areas, and will provide plenty of capacity for years to come.

    Additionally, as Verizon continues to expand its mmWave network at the rapid pace it is, that opens up thousands of small cells for Verizon to simply add an n77 radio to the pole and densify its n77 network. Just adding n77 to 10% of its mmWave sites would provide significant capacity boosts for indoor and outdoor users.

    I look forward to the day that mmWave is ubiquitous in urban areas (and it's not that far off for Verizon), but there is a ton of capacity with n41, n77, n48 that I don't think carriers need to freak out quite yet.

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    10x10 MHz of B13, 20x20 MHz of B66, 10x10 MHz of B5, and 10x10 MHz of B2 comes out to 100 MHz, meaning that adding 160 MHz of C-Band is a 1.6x addition to their spectrum holdings, not 6x.

    As for MIMO, as far as I know Verizon is using 64T64R for n77 on towers and as little as 4T4R MIMO for things like microcells and picocells. I hope they beef that up, because extremely high order MIMO would make n77 an absolute beast. I've seen a few mentions of 256T256R possibly becoming a thing for n77, but I haven't seen any official confirmations. The main issues there are cost, wind load, and how much weight and size a site can support; say what you will about mmWave, but mmWave equipment is so tiny thanks to the minuscule wavelengths that it's trivially easy to add. (Fiber backhaul is a whole other story, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.)

    Is there any word on how much GAA CBRS spectrum Verizon can use? Technologically they could utilize the whole 150 MHz, but I don't know whether that's feasible legally or socially (I can see people getting angry at Verizon for hogging the whole band).

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    Quote Originally Posted by techguru30 View Post
    I am skeptical about that date since VZW has not really made any notable expansion of C Band since they added a few islands of coverage throughout the Cincinnati region which is rare to connect to. You mostly get either LTE or Nationwide 5G in that market even though their coverage map shows those areas as UW. Does that date include their entire service area or just in their most populated markets?
    Huh? right now Verizon is legally limited to the 46 PEAs and even within those they have been limited near airports thanks to the morons at the FAA and airline CEOs. They have permission to add 30 more PEAs by the end of 2023. And they are looking to have all PEAs cleared 6 months early so by mid 2024 and the whole airports limitation will be gone by then too.

    As of June 30 they have 135 million POPs covered. That's 40% of the US population. The total population in the 46 PEAs is 190 mil. So of the areas they can cover they have 70% coverage. Which is not bad especially since they are still power limited near some airports. And Just because YOUR are has seen expansion doesn't mean no onw else has. Go to YouTube and go to Sneed Mobile Tech. He'll tell you about how much Verizon has expanded in his area which is Cleveland. Heck my area doesn't have 5G of ANY kind nearby not even 5G Nationwide. However I don't conclude that this applies to the entire country

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    Quote Originally Posted by VVivian View Post
    10x10 MHz of B13, 20x20 MHz of B66, 10x10 MHz of B5, and 10x10 MHz of B2 comes out to 100 MHz, meaning that adding 160 MHz of C-Band is a 1.6x addition to their spectrum holdings, not 6x.
    Except B13 and B5 will never be sued at teh same time. In my area Verizon has 55X55 MHz but can only use 45X45 MHz at any one time. Also though you are also counting downlink and uplink together and you should really only be counting downlink since it's the on that matters most. The 100 MHz you used in your example is only 50 MHz downlink and only 40 MHz can be used by a phone at one time. 160 MHz of C-band can ALL be downlink. So that would be a 4X increase in spectrum. If you throw in 40 MHz of CBRS that's 5X


    Is there any word on how much GAA CBRS spectrum Verizon can use? Technologically they could utilize the whole 150 MHz, but I don't know whether that's feasible legally or socially (I can see people getting angry at Verizon for hogging the whole band).
    Anyone can use as much as they want until someone else needs that. There are several companies that take care of that allocation depending on area. If they are using 150 MHz and at&t wants to sue some Verizon will get less if T-Mobile jumps in even less and is WISP jumps in even less if the DOD jumps in even less. Where Verizon has licenses spectrum they get to use that 30-40 MHz without sharing. However if they aren't using it then anyone can use it until Verizon starts then they have to get off. For example Dish bought 10 MHz in my area. Verizon can use it until Dish decides it wants to use it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    Huh? right now Verizon is legally limited to the 46 PEAs and even within those they have been limited near airports thanks to the morons at the FAA and airline CEOs. They have permission to add 30 more PEAs by the end of 2023. And they are looking to have all PEAs cleared 6 months early so by mid 2024 and the whole airports limitation will be gone by then too.

    As of June 30 they have 135 million POPs covered. That's 40% of the US population. The total population in the 46 PEAs is 190 mil. So of the areas they can cover they have 70% coverage. Which is not bad especially since they are still power limited near some airports. And Just because YOUR are has seen expansion doesn't mean no onw else has. Go to YouTube and go to Sneed Mobile Tech. He'll tell you about how much Verizon has expanded in his area which is Cleveland. Heck my area doesn't have 5G of ANY kind nearby not even 5G Nationwide. However I don't conclude that this applies to the entire country
    I am glad that VZW has decided actually upgrade the Cleveland Ohio area and largely ignore Cincinnati Ohio and other large markets throughout the United States that has no restrictions by the FAA in regards to C Band. Quite frankly Jack Hagar I am not the only one that is having issue with the Verizon network and people are leaving them in droves. Why don’t you visit the Verizon Reddit page where their are threads of people complaining about VZW’s tanking network and horrible customer service. Quite frankly Sneed Mobile Tech is a Verizon fanboy and I have stopped watching his channel. In one of the SMT videos he said it was good people were leaving them in drones in a video where he was discussion a major business contract Verizon got.

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    It’ll be “the best 5G network” once they stop blocking access to mmWave on grandfathered and tiered customers, once they get their 5G standalone core fully operational nationwide, and once they get all their 5G customers using VoNR nationwide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by techguru30 View Post
    I am glad that VZW has decided actually upgrade the Cleveland Ohio area and largely ignore Cincinnati Ohio and other large markets throughout the United States that has no restrictions by the FAA in regards to C Band. Quite frankly Jack Hagar I am not the only one that is having issue with the Verizon network and people are leaving them in droves. Why don’t you visit the Verizon Reddit page where their are threads of people complaining about VZW’s tanking network and horrible customer service. Quite frankly Sneed Mobile Tech is a Verizon fanboy and I have stopped watching his channel. In one of the SMT videos he said it was good people were leaving them in drones in a video where he was discussion a major business contract Verizon got.
    Every time that guy says “SMT nation” I want to puke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DebiLee View Post
    It’ll be “the best 5G network” once they stop blocking access to mmWave on grandfathered and tiered customers, once they get their 5G standalone core fully operational nationwide, and once they get all their 5G customers using VoNR nationwide.
    Why would you want mmwave on TIERED data plan? So you can blow though your allotment in one speedtest? Also VoNR is overrated. Just t-mobile BS they think can move the needle

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    Quote Originally Posted by techguru30 View Post
    I am glad that VZW has decided actually upgrade the Cleveland Ohio area and largely ignore Cincinnati Ohio and other large markets throughout the United States that has no restrictions by the FAA in regards to C Band. Quite frankly Jack Hagar I am not the only one that is having issue with the Verizon network and people are leaving them in droves. Why don’t you visit the Verizon Reddit page where their are threads of people complaining about VZW’s tanking network and horrible customer service. Quite frankly Sneed Mobile Tech is a Verizon fanboy and I have stopped watching his channel. In one of the SMT videos he said it was good people were leaving them in drones in a video where he was discussion a major business contract Verizon got.
    then switch

    Sneed is t-mobile fanboy. And he has hard-on for Dish for some weird reason. I've had issues with some of his anti-Verizon videos. Heck even his recent Visible video said "This is bad new price hoke coming" on a plan where the price was REDUCED by $10

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